Induction hob/cooktop, and the best cookware for it

[Dex]

19 minutes ago, afs said:

 

For searing, I'd consider the Searzall over using the Control Freak with any sort of pan.  Unless you're trying to cook the food at the same time.

 

For searing on the Control Freak, if you're looking for a very fast sear then using a copper or aluminum pan may not cut it simply because they're usually good at transferring/distributing heat more than they are storing it (with higher-mass/thicker pans storing more, of course).  When I drop a sous vide steak on a piping hot copper pan for instance, the pan temperature dives quickly before starting to ramp up again--defeating some of the instant sear I was going for.

 

Preheating a cast iron searing stone (in the oven ideally, for pervasive heat) and then using the Control Freak to replenish the heat level may be a good pick.  But honestly the Control Freak is a medium-wattage induction burner; I'm not sure that it's really meant for high-speed searing.

 

 

Already been using Searzall for years. As well as an incredibly heavy cast-iron griddle on my gas BBQ. I'm trying a new strategy - to get a nice golden sear without burning. First, I'm pretty sure those burnt bits aren't good for you, second, they do add off flavors if taken too far. The temperature control on the Control Freak is already creating good results with a 6mm aluminum pan. A bit more thermal mass for the initial drop would be good, but it only last a few seconds anyway. Dropping on a piping-hot surface is what I'm trying to do away with. Getting a nice golden sear in 3-4 minutes while keeping the sous-vide doneness of the meat.

 

Also thought about putting a thermal pad on the sensor, it will probably help with the initial drop. The contact area with the pan isn't all that great.

 

 

[Dex]

38 minutes ago, afs said:

As @Laurentius alluded, induction cooktops are going to put energy into the pan where it sits above the coil.

I have found that pans with a lot of copper in them (or really thick aluminum pans) tend to push heat to the edges better than cast iron pans.  When I need to use a cast iron pan, I either preheat it for a while so that it gets to a consistent temperature or I preheat it in the oven.
 

Cast iron works with the induction but I don't think it should really be used, the thermal conductivity is just too low. People are generally looking for the thermal mass of the cast iron as one of its main properties, but a heavy piece of other metals will do as well. I've never really been a fan, randomly polymerized oil vs specifically polymerized oil for PTFE, why do we think the former is a safer coating? When we know it comes off all time? I'm not betting on it.

 

[Laurentius]

1 hour ago, afs said:

This isn't dissimilar from a traditional electric hob

 

No, it's highly dissimilar.  A calrod or radiant hob is quite even by comparison.  The similarity would be between an induction coil and a resistive coil that is dead in the center.

 

Also, adjusted for thickness and weight, cast iron's specific heat isn't much greater than copper or aluminum.  This is a myth that stays current because truly thick copper and aluminum pans aren't as available as thick cast iron.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

Speaking as a raven perched upon a bust of Pallas I might mutter "Paragon" and an induction copper pot from Falk or Demeyere.

 

[horseflesh]

7 hours ago, afs said:

For me, as far as Control Freak vs. other induction cooktops go, well, the big benefit isn't the induction coil or the fact that it's built for round-the-clock operation.  It's the whole new way that the direct-contact temperature feedback works. 

 

The Control Freak may not be perfect but its ability to hold a specific temperature is much better than on other induction burners I have tried, where that feature basically didn't work at all. I have also found temperature-based cooking to be very liberating. 

 

If I can get another cooker with the same quality temperature control for a lot less money, I am open to ideas. 

 

 

 

[Dex]

I see Demeyere mentioned a lot, but it didn't seem to come out well in even-ness tests. Just from a physics standpoint I think it has a basic issue - every time you add a layer it reduces the total conductivity. 7 layers is too much. 

 

Still leaning towards the Fissler, it's got a giant piece of aluminum and medium price. Falk copper looks interesting, but I would guess it doesn't make up for in copper vs aluminum what it loses in the thickness of the copper (1.9mm). Copper is 1.7x the thermal conductivity of aluminum.

[Laurentius]

10 hours ago, Dex said:

7 layers is too much.

 

It depends on what the layers are.  If only the lining and bottom are steel (the remainder being some combination of aluminum bonded with silver), then counting layers doesn't mean much.  There's no practical evenness advantage from such a layup--it's done to help dimensional stability.

 

If the core is high conductivity, the basic judgment should be thickness, not the number of layers.

Edited January 22 by Laurentius
Add info (log)

[Laurentius]

10 hours ago, horseflesh said:

The Control Freak may not be perfect but its ability to hold a specific temperature is much better than on other induction burners I have tried,

 

Yes, this is an advantage.  Most temperature settings on most induction appliances are complete and utter jokes.

 

But again, the single-digit precision of CF is mostly illusory.  Plug it in to a Kill-A-Watt, and watch it cycle.  You likely can also see a very short sine with a very sensitive thermometer.

 

If your power settings are sufficiently granular, and you learn them, you get to the same place.  But in either case, you have to put up with (or overcompensate for) the intrinsic unevenness.

[Dex]

1 hour ago, Laurentius said:

 

But again, the single-digit precision of CF is mostly illusory.  Plug it in to a Kill-A-Watt, and watch it cycle.  You likely can also see a very short sine with a very sensitive thermometer.

 

 

Well, technically it is precise to a single digit, but the control loop just can't keep it to under a single digit under changing load. It basically shows you this on the display, so I don't think it's a secret. I recall seeing about +/- 5F when I used it a few days ago, obviously that will vary.

[Dex]

2 hours ago, Laurentius said:

 

It depends on what the layers are.  If only the lining and bottom are steel (the remainder being some combination of aluminum bonded with silver), then counting layers doesn't mean much.  There's no practical evenness advantage from such a layup--it's done to help dimensional stability.

 

If the core is high conductivity, the basic judgment should be thickness, not the number of layers.

 

I mostly agree, I'm just saying that the bond between layers is imperfect. 7 layers of the same aluminum will conduct less than 1 layer of the same thickness.

[Laurentius]

34 minutes ago, Dex said:

7 layers of the same aluminum will conduct less than 1 layer of the same thickness.

 

It depends on the Al alloys used.  Most 7-ply clad have cores of "5" core layers.  In Demeyere's case, two of those layers are silver, but there's not enough thickness there to even count.  That takes us down to three substantial layers of aluminum, of different alloys.  The layer)s) that are essential to bonding and dimensional stability are usually of slightly lower conductivity than the remaining one which is closer to pure aluminum.  Also, the only clad line I know that utilizes a single layer of near-pure aluminum is W-S (Hestan) Thermoclad.

 

But we're talking about a total core thickness of approximately 2mm, which is being generous except for Proline.  Run the differential equations, and you'll see that 7-ply clad doesn't suffer for conductivity. 

[Laurentius]

On 1/22/2024 at 10:25 AM, Dex said:

I don't think it's a secret.

Maybe not to you, but to the folks forking out $1,500 for a $500 PIC it is.

[Laurentius]

On 1/22/2024 at 10:28 AM, Dex said:

 

I mostly agree, I'm just saying that the bond between layers is imperfect. 7 layers of the same aluminum will conduct less than 1 layer of the same thickness.

 

The thermal bond is practically perfect.  It is with all clad.  Thermal grease is nearly so.

 

If your point is that 5 aluminum core layers of slightly different conductivities aren't as conductive overall as one layer of the highest, yes, you're right.

[Dex]

11 hours ago, Laurentius said:

 

The thermal bond is practically perfect.  It is with all clad.  Thermal grease is nearly so.

 

If your point is that 5 aluminum core layers of slightly different conductivities aren't as conductive overall as one layer of the highest, yes, you're right.

 

Found this detailed comparison of the Fissler Profi vs Proline 7-layer, there's an excel sheet at shown at 8:08, it finds the kind of significant outperformance of the Fissler as far as conductivity as the other review above.

 

[Laurentius]

3 hours ago, Dex said:

 

Found this detailed comparison of the Fissler Profi vs Proline 7-layer, there's an excel sheet at shown at 8:08, it finds the kind of significant outperformance of the Fissler as far as conductivity as the other review above.

 

 

This isn't measuring conductivity or thermal bond,  It's measuring evenness.

 

The 28cm Proline is effectively a 36cm pan by virtue of it being fully clad.  The 28cm Fissler's chamfered core is <27cm.  And the thinner Proline 28cm actually holds more heat than does the Fissler 28 for the same reason.  I know because I've measured, both empty and in cooking. 

 

If you read Franz's ratings, you saw he rated both pans 5/5 for evenness, and that was on the flawed basis of measuring when the pan center hit an arbitrary point of 350F.  If you preheat both pans to thermal equilibrium, there's not much Delta T at the 27cm ring.

[Deephaven]

You are also skirting the question a bit.  Evenness for what application?  To me the Fissler is a solution for anything that you are trying to hold for a long time or to utilize the thermal mass of the thick disk to not drop temp when adding food.  In that situation, even heating while nice isn't really the game.  Yes, I don't want monstrously different heats as I brown a steak, but high heat is not my primary concern for evenness across the pan.  When I am concerned is when I am making things that are gentle.  An omelette, reducing a pan sauce, carmelizing onions and so on.  For all of those applications a pan that is both even and reactive is a huge plus.  The control freak helps of course in holding and being repeatable allowing you to have a slightly less reactive pan, but then you need quite the memory of your setting as well.  Personally I'd prefer a pan that will react AND stay even.  For this reason after copious reading, I bought the Falk Copper Core pans.  I came from a Blue Star and E. Dehillerin Mauviel pans and see the Falk's perform as evenly on induction as the Mauviel's did on the bluestar.  Of course the hotter spots move from the outside of hte pan to the inside, but generally speaking they are as reactive and still do a wonderful job at being even.

 

 

[Laurentius]

8 hours ago, Deephaven said:

Evenness for what application?

 

Cooking.  There are many cooking applications where heated sidewalls are beneficial, and you're not getting any of that with Fissler Profi.  And since, e.g., the 28 cm Proline holds more heat than does the 28cm Profi, there's less heat put into the food.  I've tested this with searing food and measured it in controlled water baths.

 

8 hours ago, Deephaven said:

For this reason after copious reading, I bought the Falk Copper Core pans. 

 

I evaluated Coer for Falk.  It is true that the line is substantially more responsive than the Profi, but then virtually everything is.  But Coer is less responsive than Falk's bimetal layup.  Coer exists only to give Falk a horse in the induction race. And Coer can be disappointingly uneven on induction, pretty much like everything else.  Have you had pitting issues on the bottoms of your Coer pieces?

 

I'm attaching 3 scorchprint photos I took during induction evenness testing.  Because the comparators were Fissler Profi, a 3.2mm Dehillerin saute and a 6mm straightgauge aluminum pan, I used the Panasonic Met-All PIC, which "works" with all 3.  As you can see, none were far perfectly even.  But you can also see that the Fissler Profi was the least even of the bunch. 

 

There's also Ring of Fire to consider, less so on induction than gas.  It's the flip side of the radical temperature discontinuity in disk-base pans.  You can, e.g., find that you scald milk at the wall/floor junction in these, whereas the smoother transition with other constructions doesn't do that.  The fourth photo show this in a Profi.

 

 

[Deephaven]

Comparing bimetal cool down on gas with falk cool down on induction I found the falk to respond faster.  I was shocked but pleasantly surprised as getting rid of the Blue Star wasn't easy.

[Dex]

On 1/26/2024 at 6:35 PM, Laurentius said:

And since, e.g., the 28 cm Proline holds more heat than does the 28cm Profi, there's less heat put into the food.  I've tested this with searing food and measured it in controlled water baths.

...
 

There's also Ring of Fire to consider, less so on induction than gas.  It's the flip side of the radical temperature discontinuity in disk-base pans.  You can, e.g., find that you scald milk at the wall/floor junction in these, whereas the smoother transition with other constructions doesn't do that.  The fourth photo show this in a Profi.

 

 

2mm of copper/silver sandwich seems to have much less heat capacity that 8mm aluminum? If chatgpt is doing this calculation right, copper is better by about 42% by volume, and silver is just about equivalent. It needs to be 300% better to be equivalent in heat capacity.

 

Regardless, even Demeyere makes cookware like this with a discontinuous base, it's just not their skillet. See 1:02 below. Depending on your application it may be better to not have the sidewall heated. I don't think one pan could be the best at everything.

 

 

[Laurentius]

10 hours ago, Dex said:

2mm of copper/silver sandwich seems to have much less heat capacity that 8mm aluminum?

Yes, that's true, if all other variables are equal.  I assume you're referring to the 1.9mm copper core in Falk Coer.  I wasn't comparing Voter's overall heat capacity.  But as with Proline, to compare apples you'd have to run your calcs using the total volume of conductive material, i.e., including that in the walls.  So It's misleading to only consider 8mm vs. 3.7mm.  What I learned is that there is more heat delivered to proteins in a Proline than a Profi of the same size when the heat is killed--the bigger core draws heat in.

 

10 hours ago, Dex said:

Depending on your application it may be better to not have the sidewall heated. I don't think one pan could be the best at everything.

 

Well, if "better" means slower response (i.e., finishing and holding in a pan off the heat), or affordability, then I might agree.  But I would disagree that having conductive sidewalls is an undesirable pan feature.  Fissler originally called their thick disk constructions 'brautpfanne', but I discovered conductive, curved sidewall pans are actually more useful to me with sausages.  Same with steaks and cuts in very hot saute shapes.