Can You make Authentic Neapolitan Pizzas at Home?

[Guy MovingOn]

You should put the metal plate in first while you are preheating the oven. Then when it is up to temperature, with the grill/broiler on, slide in your dough.

That would be the best test. Then you can see if it makes your "charred" crust. Everything else is meaningless unless you try what was actually suggested in the recipe.

Specifically, the recipe says to wait half an hour, which will be, in most cases, a lot longer than the time it will take a home oven to tell you it's up to temperature. Domestic ovens are notorious liars.

lol ok, my point was that just putting the metal plate/sheet into the oven for 2 minutes is meaningless. So yeh, what you are saying is to wait even longer, which was what I meant to say

[cbread]

I don't think most people have any idea of just how very much more heat energy a slab of aluminum contains at any heat than the same mass slab of steel. The aluminum holds almost twice as much heat. It's not particularly intuitive. I would think that of all the posters on this thread, Scott might be the one most wanting to get hold of a big big aluminum slab.

I think that's it for me here on this subject. I don't want to beat this dead horse any further.

Best that actual tests determine what properties make the best of each style pizza.

[dcarch]

"This is Neapolitan dough, made by a professional that sells Neapolitan pizzas for a living, baked at 650 on 1/4" steel plate for 3 minutes"

I could be wrong, that does not look like 1/4" to me, more like 1/8" or less. Further more, it has 25% perforations, which mean a lot less thermal mass.

If it is used on a rack, not in direct contact with heat source, it may not have enough BTUs to bake a Neapolitan pizza.

dcarch

[scott123]

I could be wrong, that does not look like 1/4" to me, more like 1/8" or less. Further more, it has 25% perforations, which mean a lot less thermal mass.

That, my friend, is a pizza peel.

[emannths]

I don't think most people have any idea of just how very much more heat energy a slab of aluminum contains at any heat than the same mass slab of steel.

But on a volume basis, steel holds 1.5x that of aluminum, so a 1/2" steel plate has the same thermal mass as a 3/4" aluminum plate. A 1/4" steel plate is equivalent to a .375" thick Al plate.

[emannths]

Anyone have any idea what the recovery time is for baking a pizza on an Al plate--after removing the first pizza, how long do you have to wait before baking the second pizza?

[scott123]

Here's a pizza baked on 1/2" steel plate for 3 1/2 minutes at 530. As far as coal oven style pizzas go (Patsy's, Lombardi's, Totonno's, John's) this is a pretty amazing offering, but again, in no way is this Neapolitan.

Edited February 25, 2011 by scott123 (log)

[Paul Kierstead]

What's your point?

[Chris Hennes]

There are some very nice photos (on pages 2-26 and 2-27, when the books arrive) of pizzas that certainly look cooked to me, but they aren't showing the underside of the pizza, so perhaps the char level does not meet scott123's requirements for Pizza Napoletana. Who's going to take one for the team and try it?

[mkayahara]

Is the level of char in question actually a part of the "pizza napoletana DOP" definition?

[Guy MovingOn]

Here's a pizza baked on 1/2" steel plate for 3 1/2 minutes. As far as coal oven style pizzas go (Patsy's, Lombardi's, Totonno's, John's) this is a pretty amazing offering, but again, in no way is this Neapolitan.

That looks pretty delicious!

How long was the steel plate heated for before sliding the pizza onto it?

To be honest, I am not sure that I would particularly want to eat a pizza significantly more charred than that.

[BadRabbit]

Is the level of char in question actually a part of the "pizza napoletana DOP" definition?

If I'm not mistaken, DOP requires cooking directly on a stone surface so char would be moot if we're looking for meeting regulations. There are also multiple other requirements outside of our discussion here (e.g. wood fired oven, 900F temp).

http://www.pizzanapoletana.org/images/file/disciplinare%202008%20UK.pdf

Edited February 25, 2011 by BadRabbit (log)

[mkayahara]

Is the level of char in question actually a part of the "pizza napoletana DOP" definition?

If I'm not mistaken, DOP requires cooking directly on a stone surface so char would be moot if we're looking for meeting regulations. There are also multiple other requirements outside of our discussion here (e.g. wood fired oven, 900F temp).

Then I don't understand why we're having a discussion about whether or not a metal plate can produce Neapolitan pizza... by definition, it can't.

[Chris Hennes]

Right, it goes without saying that one cannot use this technique to make an official "Pizza Napoletana," by definition. It is then simply a matter of making the best reproduction we can (or, perhaps simply making the best-tasting pizza we can!). The DOP standard lays out what we are looking for in excruciating detail, including the final temperatures of the various ingredients. And it says not one word about "char."

Read it here.

[Dave the Cook]

In the link BadRabbit posted, as well as this one: My linhttp://www.fornobravo.com/vera_pizza_napoletana/VPN_spec.html (they say essentially the same things), there is no mention of char, nor anything that sounds like char. What it says in Section 2.5 implies something else, at least to me:

The consistency of the “Verace Pizza Napoletana” - (Vera Pizza Napoletana) should be soft, elastic, easy to manipulate and fold. The crust should deliver the flavour of well-prepared, baked bread.

Who wants charred bread?

What Modernist Cuisine says is "you can cook a pizza that's as fast and good as any you'll find in Naples." That's quite a boast, but it's not the same thing as saying "This is how you make Pizza Napoletana."

[BadRabbit]

Is the level of char in question actually a part of the "pizza napoletana DOP" definition?

If I'm not mistaken, DOP requires cooking directly on a stone surface so char would be moot if we're looking for meeting regulations. There are also multiple other requirements outside of our discussion here (e.g. wood fired oven, 900F temp).

Then I don't understand why we're having a discussion about whether or not a metal plate can produce Neapolitan pizza... by definition, it can't.

I was assuming that an effort was being made to produce an equivalent product though without rigorous adherence to traditional method.

[scott123]

Is the level of char in question actually a part of the "pizza napoletana DOP" definition?

If I'm not mistaken, DOP requires cooking directly on a stone surface so char would be moot if we're looking for meeting regulations. There are also multiple other requirements outside of our discussion here (e.g. wood fired oven, 900F temp).

Char isn't technically a component of the DOP, but the high oven temp is. With those temps, in order to cook the pizza all the way through, char is a natural byproduct, so my contention is that char is a de facto component of the DOP.

[Chris Hennes]

I dunno about that: in an oven of those specs with a dough of those specs and ingredients of those specs, by that argument there is no need to include a description of the final product at all... it's a given. And yet they list out very particular descriptions of the crust's qualities, and the qualities of all the other ingredients as well, going to far as to list final temperatures. I'd think that if char were so important to the quality of the pie, they would say something about it.

[lancastermike]

As the old saying goes, I don't have a nickel in this dime. What I wonder is do they suggest that a pizza cooked on a metal plate, be it steel, aluminum or maybe even titanium taste better than the exact same pie made on a stone, or simply that it will be finished sooner?

Edited February 25, 2011 by lancastermike (log)

[Chris Hennes]

A little bit of both, Mike. What they say in particular is:

Modernist Cuisine[/amazon] p. 2-26"]

Italian pizza makers have a rule: Pizza Napoletana should take no more than two minutes to cook. Even slightly longer in the oven produces a crust that they deem too chewy.

So then the goal is to cook faster on the theory that faster=better:

Modernist Cuisine[/amazon] p. 2-26"]

Fortunately, using only an electric broiler and a thick metal plate, you can cook a pizza that's as fast and as good as any you'll find in Naples.

Edited February 25, 2011 by Chris Hennes
typo (log)

[scott123]

I dunno about that: in an oven of those specs with a dough of those specs and ingredients of those specs, by that argument there is no need to include a description of the final product at all... it's a given. And yet they list out very particular descriptions of the crust's qualities, and the qualities of all the other ingredients as well, going to far as to list final temperatures. I'd think that if char were so important to the quality of the pie, they would say something about it.

Chris, 'well-prepared and baked bread' doesn't have a gummy core. For that dough, with that flour, hydration, length of fermentation, and that oven temp/bake time, the only way a gummy core can be avoided is by producing char. It's almost impossible, with those temperatures, not to produce char. I've seen countless numbers of Neapolitan pizzas and not one has ever lacked char.

Take any Neapolitan pizzeria and do an image search using the term 'upskirt' Here's the one's that I could think of:

Da Michelle pizzeria upskirt

Il Pizzaiolo del Presidente pizzeria upskirt

Antica pizzeria upskirt

Motorino pizzeria upskirt

Paulie Gees pizzeria upskirt

Lucali pizzeria upskirt

Donatella pizzeria upskirt

Keste pizzeria upskirt

a16 pizzeria upskirt

Now, I'm not cherry-picking these to support my hypothesis. This is every single pizzeria I could think of. Think of another one and try it. Any one.

[Chris Hennes]

the only way a gummy core can be avoided is by producing char. It's almost impossible, with those temperatures, not to produce char.

Does that make char a desirable outcome, or simply an unfortunate byproduct? Again: the standard that describes the ideal finished pizza is quite specific. And it does mention the color of the crust:

Appearance: 'Pizza Napoletana' STG is characterized by a raised crust of golden color -- a definite product from oven, soft to the touch and to the mouth.

If char were important to what makes a pizza "Pizza Napoletana" I believe the standard would say so. I can only conclude that char is a byproduct, at best neither desirable nor undesirable, but not important to the definition or quality of the pie. So whether or not the metal plate produces it is simply irrelevant: the pizza meets all other end-product specifications (to my eye, based on the photos in the book; and based on the statements of the authors, whom I think are sufficiently credible). Edited February 25, 2011 by Chris Hennes
Formatting and punctuation (log)

[Dave the Cook]

Just so everyone knows that we're talking about, here are a couple of photos (screen shots, actually) from Modernist Cuisine that show a side view of the pizza as it's cooking, and the finished product (sorry, no upskirts).

(Photos copyright The Cooking Lab, LLC; used with permission.)

[blackp]

Does anyone else feel that this discussion is spiralling out of control towards the "mine is bigger / better than yours" stage?

Can we put a lid on it and wait until someone has actually tried making a pizza on a 3/4" metal plate using a domestic oven?

I believe that the authors had success with this method, but the kitchen equipment available to them is not the stuff of mere mortals.

I would really like to see the results before purchasing yet another item of kitchen gear which takes up space and is seldom used - especially if it weighs 30kg.

Just my $0.02c

Peter

[scott123]

Well, that decides it. There's no way in heck I could scrape together $467, but if that's how this 20th century Guide Culinaire is going to portray pizza, then I'm going to daydream about buying something else.