Perceived Sweetness in Cocktails

[EvergreenDan]

... excellent sugar ethic and elegant aromatic contrasts...

May I ask what a sugar ethic is? I guessed it was a gastronomy term, but couldn't find any definition other than the obvious ones. Or are you saying that it is right in some way (ethic) for the drink to be quite sweet and that you enjoy it (excellent)? Thanks.

[thirtyoneknots]

... excellent sugar ethic and elegant aromatic contrasts...

May I ask what a sugar ethic is? I guessed it was a gastronomy term, but couldn't find any definition other than the obvious ones. Or are you saying that it is right in some way (ethic) for the drink to be quite sweet and that you enjoy it (excellent)? Thanks.

If I may be so bold as to try to answer on Mr. Bostonapothecary's behalf, I think he typically uses the expression to talk about the ability to (or outcome of) having precise control over sweetness in a drink, ie keeping the sugar on the low side, while still being able to draw flavors out (which sugar is often used to aid in).

I'm sure he'll have a more thorough explanation but that's always what I've taken his use of the term to mean.

[bostonapothecary]

... excellent sugar ethic and elegant aromatic contrasts...

May I ask what a sugar ethic is? I guessed it was a gastronomy term, but couldn't find any definition other than the obvious ones. Or are you saying that it is right in some way (ethic) for the drink to be quite sweet and that you enjoy it (excellent)? Thanks.

my intention was to make a drink with a sweetness that could elicit a favorable emotional reaction. i have a very personal range of what is favorable, but for the most part it overlaps with a lot of other people. the drink in question was funny because i knew what i wanted but not what the sugar sources i used (plus aromas) would yield. malt extract is not exactly the most intuitive thing to use.

a coworker whom i make a lot of drinks for has a very unique sugar ethic. she doesn't enjoy anything that doesn't have a lot of acid and a very specific range of contrasting sugar.

she would not enjoy this (too sweet):

1.5 oz. gin

.75 oz. (1:1 by volume simple syrup) maybe 400g/l of sugar

.75 oz. lemon juice

she would enjoy this:

1.5 oz. gin

.75 oz. triple sec (250 g/l plus more alcohol)

.75 oz. lemon juice

i think a lot of people out there share her "sugar ethic" but cocktail menu's don't really cater to it and she can't exactly articulate what she wants.

[EvergreenDan]

So "excellent sugar ethic" means that it coincides well with your personal preference for drink sweetness. The "momma bear" of sweetness, if you will. Perhaps an excellent sugar aesthetic?

You also feel that sweetness brings a favorable emotion. I'm guessing that this is a warm/fuzzy feeling, like comfort food. Alas, I generally have the opposite reaction to a sweet cocktail.

This is helpful for me to understand the thinking behind your very interesting cocktails. I have been pondering why I like some sweet drinks but not others.

[thirtyoneknots]

So "excellent sugar ethic" means that it coincides well with your personal preference for drink sweetness. The "momma bear" of sweetness, if you will. Perhaps an excellent sugar aesthetic?

You also feel that sweetness brings a favorable emotion. I'm guessing that this is a warm/fuzzy feeling, like comfort food. Alas, I generally have the opposite reaction to a sweet cocktail.

This is helpful for me to understand the thinking behind your very interesting cocktails. I have been pondering why I like some sweet drinks but not others.

Sweetness is present in all cocktails, though it may not necessarily be detectable. If there are ingredients other than spirits and ice it is essentially impossible to avoid sugar in some form. I'm not so sure he's saying that sweetness alone elicits a favorable reaction, but that an appropriate level of sweetness, ie a "balanced" level, is what does the trick.

Dan, from what I've seen a lot of your favorite drinks often include considerable amounts of sweet ingredients, though you typically seem to like them balanced with rather significant amount of acidity or bitterness. From my very casual obsevance of your tastes I'd say you have more of an "acid tooth" or "bitter tooth" than a "dry tooth". Myself having gone through all three of those stages at various times I think it's a fairly natural place to be in the course of cocktail exploration. I also fairly early on had an "herbal tooth" but as those drinks are often rather rich it's hard for me to drink many of them nowadays, rewarding though their flavors may be.

[EvergreenDan]

Thanks Andy. Yes, I agree that sugar is unavoidable if you want certain flavors in a cocktail. I have tilted against this several times before. When the ingredients have so much sugar in them, I often have no choice but to add acid to balance them, and sometimes the acid adds additional flavors that I would otherwise prefer to avoid.

There are some sweet cocktails that I really enjoy. A Manhattan, for example. I also love a nice Negroni, but there's bitter for the sugar to play against. I also love the sweet/sour/bitter combination, although I want the sweet/sour balance to not be sweet.

I do very much like dry cockails, but there aren't very many of them. I like a nice Martini (typical London dry, please) and a Lagavulin neat. In fact, I prefer these for their simplicity. However, when I skip over the liqueur shelf, I also skip over a wonderful world of flavors.

Perhaps if the drink is sweet, I need something to "justify" the sugar -- the whiskey / complex wine flavors of a Manhattan, or the bitterness of Campari. Herbal alone is not enough. I would not enjoy sipping Chartreuse neat, although I love it in a cocktail with some acid.

I'm trying to understand why I like certain things. Anyone else care to share their tastes?

[Tri2Cook]

This is an interesting discussion for me because I've been wondering about "sugar ethic" (though I didn't have an actual term for it before reading this) and cool factor. I frequently see, both in person and in online discussions, the words "there are too many sweet ingredients in that, I wouldn't like it". Being a novice at this and basing many of my ideas on food-related thinking, my first thought is always "don't knock it 'til you taste it". I assumed it was a "cool" thing to look down one's nose at anybody not drinking liquor neat or something very dry. I'm not saying there are not people, even large numbers of people, that have a preference for the low end of the sweet scale. I just find it interesting that some can instantly write something off simply by reading the ingredient list (and I'm not talking about some beginners crazy experiment, I'm talking about widely recognized drinks created by professionals). So basically, once you know your "sugar ethic" and your ingredients, creating something you will at least find drinkable becomes much easier... but don't be surprised if the person sitting next to you completely disagrees. Does that sound close to correct?

[Kent Wang]

Sorry if this is a bit off-topic, but it addresses the issue of sweet perception, which is central to this.

I have had and made several cocktails that were fairly sweet, not extremely, but had an unpleasant taste and mouthfeel to them that I would liken to Jolly Rancher candy. First, the taste has a bit of the artificial element of Jolly Rancher, but perhaps even more tellingly it leaves what feels like a sticky film on the back of my molars, just like Jolly Ranchers do.

All of these cocktails have been made with no artificial ingredients, and my experience seems to isolate the cases as only happening with simple syrup and fresh lemon juice. I believe all the cases were simple syrup made with plain white sugar. Is there something about these two ingredients that could cause this?

[haresfur]

I guess I'm a bit of an anomaly because I like sweet, I like sour, and I like bitter - sometimes all at once. Given the sweetness of some of the classic recipes, this aversion to sweet is interesting - especially given the mass loading of sugar in popular culture. Or maybe the dry, bitter cocktail is a reaction or a haven from the prevalence of sweet food and soft drinks.

I'm still not sure what a sugar ethic is, much less how to describe mine.

[Tri2Cook]

Looking at my post from last night, working 14+ hour shifts for the past 14 days straight must be taking it's toll. That was a rambling post that concluded on a completely different idea than it started on. Anyway, I get it that everybody enjoys a different level of sweet. I think what I was getting at was that I've come across people that write a drink off based on the ingredient list or will only order Scotch neat or something like that in a public place even if they drink Cosmos at home when nobody is looking. I don't think that's a sugar ethic, I think that's another category entirely. I just have no idea why I brought it up in this thread.

[EvergreenDan]

I'm pondering what might affect one's sugar aesthetic. A few ideas:

Age. I liked sweeter things when I was younger. Many adults prefer salty snacks over sweet snacks. Bitter aesthetic seems to increase with age.

Personal context. Some drinks elicit fond memories, perhaps of family or parents, or of a time when you enjoyed them (e.g. ouzo from a Greek trip). Or negatively -- tequila from sickness in Mexico.

Ego. Maybe some drinks are ordered, in part, for appearance. Do kids genuinely like Jaegermeister? Or perhaps even the bone-dry Martini. Or enduring ribbing for a girlie-looking Negroni.

Past drinking experience. If you associate sweet drinks with novice drinking, you might be disinclined to like a well-crafted sweet drink.

Boredom. Some seek challenging experiences in food and drink. A sweet drink may not be as exciting because they are common.

Food. I generally don't like sweetness in my food, except for dessert. Please keep your cherries off my duck breast. Do sweet apple have to accompany every pork chop and Cornish game hen? Good tomato sauce doesn't need sugar. Do you have to candy the pecans that go into the frisee salad? Obviously these dishes are made sweet because a lot of people like them.

Exposure. Exposure to foods and drinks, over time, creates appreciation and preference. My wife started out as a fruity white wine drinker. She'll now order a Negroni and loves Paper Planes. She still doesn't like a Martini or really a Manhattan, though. I have work to do...

Just some thought. Might be all wrong...

Edited February 3, 2011 by EvergreenDan (log)

[bostonapothecary]

Sorry if this is a bit off-topic, but it addresses the issue of sweet perception, which is central to this.

I have had and made several cocktails that were fairly sweet, not extremely, but had an unpleasant taste and mouthfeel to them that I would liken to Jolly Rancher candy. First, the taste has a bit of the artificial element of Jolly Rancher, but perhaps even more tellingly it leaves what feels like a sticky film on the back of my molars, just like Jolly Ranchers do.

All of these cocktails have been made with no artificial ingredients, and my experience seems to isolate the cases as only happening with simple syrup and fresh lemon juice. I believe all the cases were simple syrup made with plain white sugar. Is there something about these two ingredients that could cause this?

if people are curious about this topic i may have addressed some of the issues in a blog post called Sweet Rebellion: a short theory of acquired tastes and an unsavory explanation of harmony. it is definitely not a complete theory but hopefully partially valid and definitely an interesting idea.

kent, do you have a recipe for any of those drinks?

i made a few drinks a couple nights ago for some co workers. one of the drinks ended up being very jolly rancher like and it wasn't enjoyed. i think the reason could be that there was no aromatic contrast and the tonal effect of the one dimensional aroma was not "extra-ordinary" and therefore evoked the memory of something common like a jolly rancher.

the problem drink was this:

.5 oz. primi frutti strawberry liqueur (fairly low sugar. maybe 200g/l, intense aroma)

.5 oz. simple syrup

.5 oz. lemon juice

1.5 oz. cognac

the cognac and the fruit liqueur both have aromas that increase the perception of sweetness, but the fruit liqueur is so high in extract (dissolved aroma) that it largely overshadows the cognac and produces no cool aromatic "overtone" like a sidecar does. you largely get this mono strawberry experience and it is boring like a jolly rancher.

another similarly structured drink i made looked like this:

.5 oz. pacific rim framboise (huge aroma and very comparable sugar to the primi frutti)

.5 oz. simple syrup

.5 ozl lemon juice

1.5 oz. mezcal (del maguay vida)

this drink was a big success and the commonness of the raspberry aroma was rendered extra ordinary by simply contrasting it with the mezcal. (sweet aromas contrasted with aromas that decrease the perceptions of sweetness. simple aromatic tension)

because it was "extra-ordinary" no common experience (jolly rancher) was evoked. when you hit extra-ordinary territory you can't stop staring (with the mind's eye). it can be a very therapeutic distraction.

the first drink was fixed on the next iteration by adding more aroma that decrease the perception of sweetness:

.5 oz. primi frutti strawberry

.5 oz. simple syrup

.5 oz. lemon juice

1 oz. gin

.5 oz. cognac

dash angostura bitters

more aromatic tension created more of an "extra-ordinary" experience. and she drank it faster than the first...

[Kent Wang]

The Jolly Rancher cocktails I had were all very simple ones like daiquiri with lemon instead of lime (limes are not as easy to get in China) and Havana Club white rum, and Tom Collins. So they both have lemon juice and simple syrup in common, and a clear spirit.

[bostonapothecary]

one sugar ethic issue that has dawned on me lately is that there are two popular approaches to contrasting sweetness in high acid cocktails. one varies sweetness around a fixed point of acidity and the other varies acidity around a fixed point of sweetness.

for example.

2:1:1

2 oz. tequila

1 oz. orange liqueur (substitute different brands for different sugar contents)

1 oz. lime juice

2:1:??

2 oz. tequila

1 oz. orange liqueur (one brand, doesn't rotate)

.5 - .75 oz. lime juice

people that use the first approach tend to keep their drinks in very simple ratios but change brands based on their different properties. they also tend to think of recipes more statically and select specific drink for specific tastes (consonance, dissonance).

the second approach seems to hold all recipe as suggestions and therefore be dynamic. the point of variance in the recipes is mainly the acid.

for some reason i always use the first approach. even though i can remember the sugar contents of nearly every liqueur (because i've measured them all), i can't remember strange ratios for the life of me. i see drinks from brand PR materials with wacky ratios and it makes my head spin.

any thoughts on this?

[EvergreenDan]

Some advantages I can see of varying the ratio (second approach):

• Freedom to pick the liqueur(s) for flavor, rather than sugar content
  
• Freedom to substitute liqueurs on hand
  
• Ability to adapt to varying sugar/acid content of fresh acidifiers (some lemons are sweeter than others -- season, species, grower, etc).
  
• Ability to fine tune recipe
  

When Kyle Davidson started adding cocktails to Kindred Cocktails, he had to find a way to enter his +/- nomenclature (e.g. +1/2 oz is a bit over an ounce). I suggest that we just use 1/8th (e.g. 5/8 oz), but he pointed out that the amount over might be less than an 1/8 oz, and that bartenders should become attuned to their ingredients to adjust. (He puts "fat" or "scant" in the ingredient's notes.) I took this as his way of saying, "If you need to fiddle with the recipe, fiddle with this ingredient."

That said, I'm not a bartender, so I don't have to remember ratios. I read the recipe off my netbook, or print recipes and bring them with me.

[Roddy]

I don't mind sweetness so long as it is balanced with something interesting, which for me usually means bitters of some sort. What I tend away from is overly acidic drinks, and so Manhattan variations are invariably my favorites.

A post in another thread brought up the point that bartenders at cocktail bars can't just follow their own ethic, but must make concessions to a wide variety of tastes, which will of course include the tastes of those who like sweetness. I wonder if this explains the following. I just picked up a copy of the beautiful new bar book from the owners of Employees Only, Speakeasy. Many of the drinks sound really interesting, and their ethos is in the right place. However, the proportions are heavily skewed towards the sweet, e.g. bumping up the amount of liqueurs etc. I get that not everyone like Fernet, Campari, and neat Scotch, but I still struggle with cocktails in which I can isolate sweetness, rather than having it serve as part of the background.