Most fluid white chocolate?

[pringle007]

What do all of you feel is the most fluid and easily "poured" white chocolate. I love the fluid nature of El Reys darker choclates. Its amazingly easy to mold and work with. While I rarely use white chocoalte, I have had less inspiring experiences with it as I find it so dificult to pour and to get a "thin shell" out of. I have tried Callebaut and Ghirirdelli, but thats it. Any suggestions?

Edited September 17, 2009 by pringle007 (log)

[RobertM]

Callebaut uses numbers of "drops" to indicate their fluidity and suggested uses for a particular chocolate - I believe 3 drops is what they recommend for using in molds.

Have you tried any of the Peter's Chocolates or Wilbur??

[Sebastian]

White chocolate is hugely affected by age - any white chocolate, regardless of who mfr'd it, will thicken over time, even if it was originally manufactured to be a very low viscosity product. Talk to your manufacturers, find out what type of viscosity measurement they use - if brookfield NCA, look for something < 30 if you want a very 'thin' product. If older macmichael, look for something < 100. If they use centipoise, look for something < 20,000 (but have a deep discussion around how they got this number, there's a number of ways to get to it, and it can mean very different things).

Best case? Get as new production as you can, and have a few drops of fluid lecithin at the ready to add to it to thin it out.

[Edward J]

Big fan of Lindt "Blancor", but as Sebastian says, best look at the production date. White choc will also take on weird flavours quicker too as it gets older--it's just ilk powder, cocoa butter and sugar. When I need to really thin it out, I add more cocoa butter.....

[Lior]

I find Valrhona's Ivoire so fluid I have to do twocoatings for my molded items or they are so thin they don't come out.

[Chris Hennes]

I am absolutely switching white chocolate to Valrhona right now, Lior! I have been using the E. Guittard chocolate line for everything, but I find their white nearly impossible to work with it is so thick. I simply assumed that this was a standard property of white chocolate, I'm glad to hear it is not!

[RWood]

I find El Rey's easy to work with my self. But, I do second the Valrhona. It's my next choice. White chocolate can be a big pain, but those two seem to work the best for me. I just like El Rey's better for flavor. I don't care to eat white chocolate, but I find it's the easist to get down

[Lior]

Dying to try El Rey's white- it has un-deodorized cb. How funny- "un de...!" What a weird world.

[Kerry Beal]

Dying to try El Rey's white- it has un-deodorized cb. How funny- "un de...!" What a weird world.

Yeah, not non deodorized - un deodorized. Like it's been deodorized then it's been undone.

[RWood]

Dying to try El Rey's white- it has un-deodorized cb. How funny- "un de...!" What a weird world.

Yeah, not non deodorized - un deodorized. Like it's been deodorized then it's been undone.

That's why I prefer it. It still has the aroma and flavor of chocolate. Most whites are just too sweet, and at least with El Rey's, you do still get something that resembles "chocolate".

[pringle007]

Thanks for all the tips! I'll look for some El Rey (it was going to be my nest choice before I decided to consult the experts!) and I see if I can find some Val. I do agree about white chocolate picking up scents.. I purchased ten pounds of Callebaut white chocolate from an artisan market that houses shops of individual cullinarians and their specialized treats and dishes here in Columbus. The booth also sold imported, higher end spices. When I got the chocolate home and melted it down, it tasted like garlic! It was disgusting. I let it harden, returned it to the shop where they tasted it - and promply refunded my money!

[Truffle Guy]

I've used more white chocolates than I think I can count and the type you use will depend a bit on how you will be using the white chocolate. If you are using it for molding (and especially if you are airbrushing) you will want to avoid some of the chocolates that are "too" viscous. Here are my thoughts on each I've used. I use almost all of the chocolates below so I'm not incented to push one brand over another. From my perspective here are the prices (others may get better deals) $$$=Exspensive $$=Moderate Price $=Good Value

El Rey $$- I started with El Rey and the white can be a challenge when molding as it is so fluid and while it does a very thin shell, if you are using colored cocoa butter the white chocolate shell may not be thick enough to "pull" the cocoa butter out of the shell when it contracts. Also, I do think El Rey has a more "organic or earthy" flavor to it than some of the others which can be a challenge when you are using flavored ganaches. I also had a hard time getting consistent product so I'd suggest going to El Rey directly if you use it.

E. Guittard $$- The white chocolate can be a bit thick for shells but other than that is is a very nice chocolate, one of my favorites. I was told last week by Guittard that they have a new higher cocoa % which will be more fluid.

Callebaut $ to $$- You just need to be careful that the white chocolate is fluid enough for shells. You can always add cocoa butter if needed. Very creamy white chocolate that I really like for centers.

Cacao Barry $$ - Very similar to Callebaut, works okay but I feel it is better for centers than shells...at least for my chocolates.

Felchlin $$ to $$$- Another excellent white chocolate that is smooth and tasty. It can be too fluid so you may need to "cut" it with a thicker white chocolate. They have several options although I normally only use their top line.

Des Alpes $ to $$$ - They have 3 lines you can choose from and all are suppose to be good for molding (have not tried yet). Gemline is their top line and I've had it when taking classes at The Notter School and it seems very fluid and has a nice creamy taste. I recently tried the Orchid line of white and found it interesting...it is creamy with almost a buttery finish. It is also very reasonably priced.

Valrhona $$$ - You get what you pay for. This is the primary chocolate I use. When I started, I didn't want to use it because I felt there was an "elitist" persona to the chocolate. If there is, it is well deserved (in my opinion). It is not cheap, even in quantity but it is so consistent, I've never had a problem with it. It not only is fluid and great for molding, it tastes great as well.

Cluziel $$$ - I felt it tasted great but wasn't as fluid as Valrhona. I only used it a couple times so I might have to try it again.

Hersheys $ - Just kidding

I think these are the chocolates I've used. There are no "right" answers on what to use, it just depends on your application. My perspective if primarily from one who does pretty extensive airbrushing and uses white chocolate for molds. I don't normally use the same white chocolate for centers as I do for shells as it doesn't make sense to pay $7 per lb to make a passion fruit ganache where the overwhelming taste will be passion fruit.

[Truffle Guy]

FYI....on the taste of El Rey White not being deodorized. It doesn't have a chocolate flavor as there is no chocolate mass only cocoa butter. I always felt it had a more earthy or organic taste but nothing that made it taste more like chocolate. In fact, I think you want to tell your customers as it will be different than most white chocolates they've had and they could be put off it they don't understand why. Use it as a marketing ploy.....

[lebowits]

I'd like to expand the conversation a bit to include milk chocolate. I've only used a very few chocolates and have been using Des Alpes from Albert Uster. I find the "gem line" to be very tasty but the milk chocolate is extremely thick (viscous) and can be difficult to work with. I've raised my working temp to about 90F and still find it hard to work with. I'm planning on trying the "orchid" line chocolates soon.

Does you have any thoughts about milk chocolates you work with?

[schneich]

cluizel elianza is a new great white couverture, very fluid and not that pricey (7 euros/kg)

cheers

t.

[RWood]

I'd like to expand the conversation a bit to include milk chocolate. I've only used a very few chocolates and have been using Des Alpes from Albert Uster. I find the "gem line" to be very tasty but the milk chocolate is extremely thick (viscous) and can be difficult to work with. I've raised my working temp to about 90F and still find it hard to work with. I'm planning on trying the "orchid" line chocolates soon.

Does you have any thoughts about milk chocolates you work with?

I use both Valrhona and El Rey. Just my two preferences. I've had no problem molding with either one. A friend of mine uses the "E" Guittard line, and she says it's too fluid to work well with her enrober. She has an older model and it's too thin for the chain to pull the chocolate up.

I used the Orchid line at my previous job, but only for baking. I don't know what it's like to mold with. Great price though.

[tammylc]

cluizel elianza is a new great white couverture, very fluid and not that pricey (7 euros/kg)

cheers

t.

That's good to know - the standard Cluizel is very viscous, IME.

This thread comes at a good time for me, I'm almost out of chocolate, and probably won't order my white from Cluizel next time...

[Sebastian]

Remember that there's only so many places in the world that make chocolate. Most of the chocolate in the world is made by 5 or 6 companies. If the place you're buying your chocolate from does not make chocolate, and it has a brand that isn't linked to a place that makes chocolate, chances are very, very, very, very good that they're buying from one of the previously aforementioned folks, repackaging it, adding a few dollars a lb to the price, and selling it to you. Trying to save you a few bucks here...

[prairiegirl]

I do find that El-Rey white chocolate does have a chocolate odour to it and I specifically use the white in chocolate tastings to teach my audience about chocolate and how it is produced etc.. I would not use white El-Rey in my ganaches such as strawberry, or a flavour that I am trying to profile. Sometimes I use it in a straight white ganache and tier it with maybe a coffee ganache (as an example). That tends to work well.

[schneich]

@sebastian

thats only partially true, of course a lot of chocolate manfacturers rely on companies like cargill to do the "bean to liquor" process for them, but doesnt mean a thing since they only use the cocoa that you give them, i have a friend who works for a major company and she is in charge of the raw cocoa bean testing, she tells me that there are HUGE differences. sometimes they get qualitites which are foul, stinking and moldy (we all know where this stuff goes ;-). also companies differ in how small the particles are grinded. cluizel for example grinds a whole lot smaller than most of the other companies resulting in the very smooth melting mouthfeel they are famous for....

cheers

t.

p.s. btw its the cocoa butter content not the lecithin that makes a chocolate more fluid ;-)

Edited September 26, 2009 by schneich (log)

[Sebastian]

Quite right, large differences exist in bean quality - and globally, to be quite frank, bean quality is on the decline - it's already advanced to an alarming point, and the rate of decline is faster now than it was 5 years ago. It will be quite problematic for our industry in the future unless we're able to identify ways to halt the decline. Not sure what portion of what i said you're saying is only partially right - my point was that there are hundreds of folks who sell chocolate with their own brand, but only a handful who are making most of the chocolate. Those hundreds who are thus buying it wholesale from the manufacturer, and selling it under their own name, adding another step in the value chain, which only adds costs. Unless you can tie the brand of the chocolate to a company that has physical assets that manufactures chocolate, you're quite likely paying too much!

Cluizel makes a quality product, but particle size is not where they are significantly differentiated. They utilize 5 roll refiners, as most of the industry does (although there are about a half dozen other grinding systems that the industry also employs to one degree or another). Cluizel, for the past 3 years (and depending on the product), averages between 16-20 um, with a bi-modal particle size distribution.

Fluidity (viscosity) is affected by a number of things, one of which is indeed cocoa butter. The more total fat you have, the lower your viscosity will be (including milk fat, not just cocoa butter - however there are some things that complicate using milk fat, such as if it's bound in whole milk powder (not available for viscosity reduction), or if it's added in anhydrous milk fat form so that 100% of it is available for viscosity reduction).

Particle size shape, size, and distribution also hugely affect your viscosity. For a fixed total fat content of say, 33%, if you have two chocolates, one of which has an average particle size of 15 um and one of which has an average particle size of 25 um, the 25 um product will be considerably 'thinner' (less viscous" even though everything else is exactly the same. The type of equipment that was used to grind those particles down to that size also can have a dramatic impact on the finished rheology as well (see ACM vs Roll Refiner, for example).

Conching has a significant role in viscosity as well, and it's perhaps the most complicated of all the factors that affect viscosity, as it's effectiveness is tied to it's ability to affect total moisture content, distribution of emulsifer, and it can affect particle size shape (post particle size reduction).

Emulsifiers drive fluidity lower by acting as the 'bridge' between the lipohillic portion of your chocolate (the fat) and the hydrophillic portions of it (moisture, milk, sugar). Normally, oil and water don't mix, as the addage goes - lecithin helps to make them mix better. You have approximately 1% moisture in your chocolate when it arrives to you. Lecithin simply helps the moisture to become very 'slippery' when it comes in contact with the cocoa butter.

Quite happy to go into more detail on any of these areas - the above is a very, very high level touch-n-go on the topics.

-Seb

@sebastian

thats only partially true, of course a lot of chocolate manfacturers rely on companies like cargill to do the "bean to liquor" process for them, but doesnt mean a thing since they only use the cocoa that you give them, i have a friend who works for a major company and she is in charge of the raw cocoa bean testing, she tells me that there are HUGE differences. sometimes they get qualitites which are foul, stinking and moldy (we all know where this stuff goes ;-). also companies differ in how small the particles are grinded. cluizel for example grinds a whole lot smaller than most of the other companies resulting in the very smooth melting mouthfeel they are famous for....

cheers

t.

p.s. btw its the cocoa butter content not the lecithin that makes a chocolate more fluid ;-)

[DessertsByDesign]

I've been using Felchlin's Edelweiss for quite some time, and it serves me well for enrobing and moulding. Prior to that I was a Vahlrona fan, but found it at times a bit too fluid, requiring 2 passes when moulding bon bons. And IMO both have very similar flavor (although the Vahlrona is tad less sweet), where the Felchlin is easier to work with and costs a bit less.

In past I have had the least success with Callebaut and Guittard.

Edited September 28, 2009 by DessertsByDesign (log)

[Edward J]

Sebastian,

From the literature I've read, it is my understanding that when lecithin is added in amounts of under 1%, it increases the fluidity of the chocolate, and in amounts of over 1% it increases the viscosity.

Can you confirm this?

There are high quality, albeit expensive couvertures out there that have no lecithin added. May I assume that lecithin is an "economical" additive in that it mimics the addition of more (expensive) cocoa butter?

Are ball-bearing type conches popular? How effective are they?

[FWED]

There are three things that I take into account when I chose a brand of white chocolate, or any chocolate for that matter. The first is taste or flavor. I usually do a blind taste test of possible brands. Then I take into account how I want to use the chocolate. What will be the flavor of the ganach, or is it just for the shell.

I started out using Guittard's "High Sierra" but found that to milky for my taste. Next I tried "Edelweiss" by Felchlin and found it less milky, not to sweet, and better for my purposes. I have used some El Ray and like the flavor but found it to be a bit to assertive for what I wanted and double the cost of other brands.

Next there is the issue of viscosity. I have with luck found that the Edelweiss to be just viscous enough for me to use in casting the molds that I like. However, I have had to decrease the cream slightly in the ganache's that I make with it so that they won't be to soft in the shells.

If you find a white chocolate that you like the flavor of but not the viscosity you could always try adding a small amt of cocoa butter or lecithin to improve the handling. I suspect it's easier to change the viscosity than it is to change the taste or flavor.

As to the cost, that is always a factor. Fortunately the cost from my supplier of Edelweiss and High Sierra are about he same.

I hope this may be of some help in your quest for the best white chocolate for your particular purposes.

[cmflick]

Has anyone used this Cacao Barry white chocolate for molding? I had pretty good luck molding with it. It actually seemed a little more fluid than the 64% Cacao Barry chocolate that I usually mold with. I've used Callebaut white chocolate in the past and it was too viscous to easily mold. The taste seems good, but I'm not one to judge since I'm not fond of white chocolate. The ganaches that I have made with it have been good.

The block that I received is labeled in English "White Chocolate and Colored Decoration". I'm curious as to what they mean by "colored decoration" on the label. There is nothing in the white chocolate than the standard white chocolate ingredients, e.g., cocoa butter, milk powder, sugar, lecithin, vanilla. I'm thinking maybe they're just suggesting that you could color the white chocolate for decorations. I've never seen white chocolate labeled this way before though.

Edited September 29, 2009 by cmflick (log)