Authentic American Pizza Styles

[chef gui]

I'd like to hear authoritative opinions on the different pizza styles in America.

I'm writing a technical culinary book, coming out in December. While i'm not at the liberty to discuss it in details, please know that it's a reference guide about various classic dishes in America. Not a book about pizza by any means. However, i'm researching serious information about the different styles of pizza a home cook may encounter in a US restaurant or cookbook.

I don't need an exhaustive list of all the pizza styles available. Rather, i'm looking for the most usual characteristiques and dough recipes for each.

After a little research, it is my belief that there are 8 big styles of pizza in the US:

NY-style / Neapolitan

thin. little toppings. cheese on top.

Chicago style/ deep dish

thick. similar to a pie or a quiche, even. baked in pie dish. tomato sauce on top, cheese underneath.

St Louis style

roughly same as chicago style but with the characteristic 3-cheese (provolone, swiss, white cheddar)

Sicilian style

rectangular. thick crust. sauce on top; cheese underneath. square sliced.

Nonna / grandma style

similar to sicilian but i'm unsure of the real differences with the other 7 styles. feel free to comment.

New haven style

similar to NY-style but thicker. oblong shape.

Greek style

thin crust. oily bottom. lots of oregano. thick layer of cheese.

California style

similar to neopolitan. lots of fresh vegetables, goat cheese, arugula, etc...

My 3 big questions are:

1. Would most of you agree with this classification for the US market?

2. Would most of you agree with the above descriptions?

3. What are the differences in the recipes for the dough?

Note that I'm looking for informed sources (people who really know what they are talking about).

Thank you so much.

[rlibkind]

Tomato Pie, centered in Trenton NJ. Thin, crisp, charred crust, cheese on bottom, sauce on top. While various toppings can be had, unadorned is the gold standard. A tomato pie with no cheese (perhaps a dusting of parmesan at most) is also found in the Trenton-Philadelphia corridor, both on thin crust round pies and thick crust Sicilians (the pies, not persons of that ethnic/culltural heritage).

[weinoo]

According to Alan Richman, in his article in GQ about the 25 best pizzerias in the United States:

we have, remarkably, seven distinct kinds of pizza in this country, starting with those Neapolitan imitations that represent style over sustenance.

To read the full article, American Pie, click here.

[slkinsey]

This discussion brings about the whole question of "what does 'authentic' mean?"

By what standard of "authenticity" is there such a thing as a species of pizza called "Greek Pizza"?

By what standard of "authenticity" is the Chicago "deep dish" product considered "pizza" but, for example, lahmajoun, tarte flambée, pissaladière, Flammkuchen, manakish are not?

By what standard of "authenticity" is the style of stainless deck oven pizza most widely represented by Domino's and its ilk not considered an "authentic pizza style"?

If we're going to go microregional to the extent that we are actually considering a certain species of NY pizza and a certain species of New Haven pizza and a certain species of Philadelphia pizza distinct styles rather than iterations with one style, why not posit stylistic categories for Milwaukee pizza and Detroit pizza and California pizza and Portland pizza and Lubbock pizza? Does an "authentic pizza style" have to be good?

Why isn't "French bread pizza" an "authentic style"?

I'm not asking these questions to be contrarian. These are all among the sorts of questions that have to be answered in considering something like this. First among these questions is asking: "What makes pizza pizza? On what basis, other than the name, do we classify 'Chicago deep dish' and 'Neapolitan style' as being party of a common thing that is distinct from, say, pissaladière when Neapolitan style pizza actually has more commonality with pissaladière than it does 'Chicago deep dish'"?

Edited July 8, 2009 by slkinsey (log)

[Moopheus]

If we're going to go microregional to the extent that we are actually considering a certain species of NY pizza and a certain species of New Haven pizza and a certain species of Philadelphia pizza distinct styles rather than iterations with one style, why not posit stylistic categories for Milwaukee pizza and Detroit pizza and California pizza and Portland pizza and Lubbock pizza? 

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For that matter, don't forget Buffalo, where you can get pizza served on thick, puffy dough.

[Chris Amirault]

First among these questions is asking:  "What makes pizza pizza?"

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My thought, too. Here in RI there's a foodstuff called "pizza strips," which are very thick (3/4"-1"), doughy slabs with red sauce smeared across them, usually served cold and cheese-free. (If you can't tell, I hate them.) I'd argue that, while they may be derivative of Sicilian-style pan pizza (which you can get mediocre versions of around these parts), they aren't a style of pizza at all. They're slabs of dough with red sauce smeared on them.

What makes them not pizza I'm not sure. But they're not pizza.

[Fat Guy]

Lubbock pizza?

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That's totally the best. But also good is Morimoto's "tuna pizza" with bluefin tuna, anchovy aioli, and jalapenos on a flour tortilla.

Probably the only way to make sense of the inquiry is to use a common-usage approach, in other words pizza is whatever large numbers of people in any given place call pizza. This approach is typically going to yield some weird definitions, but I guess it's a starting point.

[slkinsey]

The problem is that people seem willing to call most anything "pizza." For example, there is "Armenian pizza" aka lahmajoun and there is "Arabic pizza" aka manakish. One can't even say that "pizza' in the US is defined by consisting mostly of flavors in the broad Italian-American tradition, because that leaves out many of the "California Pizza Kitchen" iterations, not to mention that we call various things "Indian pizza" and "Mexican pizza" that have little or no flavor or culinary connection to Italian-American tradition.

[chef gui]

Ok. Let me try to address some of the points raised following my initial post.

Many good points, especially by slkinsey. I agree with you. And maybe I shouldn't have used "authentic" because it's not really the point.

Sure, Pissaladiere has more to do with Neopolitan pizza than Chicago-style pizza. But that's not really the point either.

I'm not interested either in knowing all micro-regional types of pizza. Of course, anybody can make up a pizza style and call it say, "flying monkey style pizza". Kind of a catchy name; i'll give you that. But again, not the point of my initial post.

The point is this, and i'll try to make it as clear as possible.

Over the years, Americans have been calling pizza a lot of things. It's very true, slkinsey, that Chicago-style pizza is so remote from "authentic" pizza, namely Neopolitan pizza, that one may really ask the legitimate question: is that really pizza?

But that doesn't matter either. It doesn't matter because Chicago-style pizza is so rooted in the American culture that it has become a pizza. Just a different style than "authentic" Neopolitan pizza.

And I think that's my point. What are the pizza classifications that are accepted by the American mainstream food culture? Which ones are part of pop culture, and which ones are considered fringe?

My initial post cited 8 main styles. Do you agree? Would you add one? Would you substract one?

A good test may be: Do you consistently notice one or more of those 8 styles listed on American menus, or cookbook recipes, or on the food network.

To be part of pop culture, a pizza style has to be significant. We've all heard of NY-Style pizza because it is served and called that way significantly all across this great country. Well, tell me... what makes a NY-style pizza?

Did I make my post clearer or more confusing than it was on the first place?..

Thanks for your feedback.

[chef gui]

Lubbock pizza?

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Probably the only way to make sense of the inquiry is to use a common-usage approach, in other words pizza is whatever large numbers of people in any given place call pizza. This approach is typically going to yield some weird definitions, but I guess it's a starting point.

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Yes, I think that's the point I initially wanted to make.

[Fat Guy]

According to Alan Richman, in his article in GQ about the 25 best pizzerias in the United States:

we have, remarkably, seven distinct kinds of pizza in this country, starting with those Neapolitan imitations that represent style over sustenance.

To read the full article, American Pie, click here.

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Just to elaborate on that, it's actually kind of difficult to follow the list narrative, so here's what I was able to extract as the Richman taxonomy of American pizza:

1. Neapolitan imitations

2. Chicago-style deep dish

3. Stuffed-pie variant of deep dish

4. Sicilian pan pizza

5. Thin, crispy, bar pizza

6. Grilled pizza

7. New-style American pie

[Fat Guy]

NY-style / Neapolitan

thin. little toppings. cheese on top.

Chicago style/ deep dish

thick. similar to a pie or a quiche, even. baked in pie dish. tomato sauce on top, cheese underneath.

St Louis style

roughly same as chicago style but with the characteristic 3-cheese (provolone, swiss, white cheddar)

Sicilian style

rectangular. thick crust. sauce on top; cheese underneath. square sliced.

Nonna / grandma style

similar to sicilian but i'm unsure of the real differences with the other 7 styles. feel free to comment.

New haven style

similar to NY-style but thicker. oblong shape.

Greek style

thin crust. oily bottom. lots of oregano. thick layer of cheese.

California style

similar to neopolitan. lots of fresh vegetables, goat cheese, arugula, etc...

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A few thoughts:

New York style breaks down into a few styles, the two major ones being the brick-oven thin-crust pie and the relatively doughy slice-shop pie baked in a stainless-steel deck oven and topped with a fair amount of cheese and often several other toppings. A third is the new style of pizzas getting a lot of press now, some of which attempt to be Neapolitan and some of which are their own thing.

St. Louis style doesn't seem significant enough to include as a major category.

Cheese underneath is not necessarily standard for Sicilian style. I only know of one place, in Brooklyn, that does it that way. The hundreds of other Sicilian pies I've seen, at least in New York City, have had cheese on top.

Not sure what is meant by grandma style.

Not sure there's such a thing as a New Haven style. Sally's and Pepe's, which are the paragons of New Haven pizza, actually serve pies that are fairly different from one another.

Grilled pizza should be included, probably.

[Moopheus]

Not sure what is meant by grandma style.

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As I recall, when my grandma made pizza (it's been some years now since that happened) it was similar to what is usually called Sicilian--thick and rectangular, baked in a pan. But I could be misremembering--possibly grandpa made the pizza, since he was both Sicilian and usually the one making the sauce and the meatballs.

[slkinsey]

"Grandma" pizza most likely derives from what the Italians would call casalinga ("housewife") style, meaning the kind of pizza you can bake in a square pan in a home (read: lower temperature) oven.

[mrsadm]

In the Endicott NY area (home to many Italian immigrants) there is a white pizza with cheese and garlic, no tomato sauce at all. Sometimes it has broccoli added.

[Sneakeater]

There is a pizza called "grandma" pizza offerred at many NYC by-the-slice places. It's as slkinsey describes. It's square, but with a thinner crust than sicilian.

[rickster]

In the Endicott NY area (home to many Italian immigrants) there is a white pizza with cheese and garlic, no tomato sauce at all. Sometimes it has broccoli added.

I don't think this is unique to Endicott. I used to get this at pizzerias in Southern Connecticut 20 years ago.

[garlicpbo]

The 'white pizza" that I have had was as you described but with spinach or basil wilted on top

[Lisa Shock]

What about Pizza Rustica, the Americanized version of Easter Pie from Sicily and adjoining areas?

[TongoRad]

"Grandma" pizza most likely derives from what the Italians would call casalinga ("housewife") style, meaning the kind of pizza you can bake in a square pan in a home (read: lower temperature) oven.

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For clarification, Umberto's in New Hyde Park (Long Island) claims to be the home of the commercial Grandma Pizza, though, as Sneakeater has observed, most slice shops offer some sort of variation of it these days. I guess it has been migrating west for the past few decades. Here is a bit more information, fwiw.

If you ask me, the ideal Grandma pie should be the following: rectangular pan crust, about 1/2" high, coated first with olive oil, then crushed tomatoes, garlic, some grated pecorino, sliced (not shredded) mozzarella, and fresh basil. Unfortunately, I see a lot of versions that are just short Sicilian pies, using the standard pizza sauce and shredded cheese- t'ain't the same thing.

[Lora]

St Louis style

roughly same as chicago style but with the characteristic 3-cheese (provolone, swiss, white cheddar)

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Here in MO, we understand St. Louis style to be basically the exact opposite of Chicago style - a crisp, cracker-thin crust. And it is commonly made with Provel cheese - a processed-cheese type.

[MaxH]

Interesting subject, chef. Two pieces of information:

If you don't have it already, get ahold of J F Mariani's landmark article "Everybody Loves Italian Food" in American Heritage magazine, 1989 or so. It says a good deal about pizza in the US, including the back-popularization of pizza styles into different places in Italy, from the US. (It's a bit more scholarly than some of Mariani's popular food writing.) If you don't have easy access, email me via clicking on my name here and I can get you a paper copy -- I have it on file. (Conceivably it has gone online. The overwhelming majority of important food writing I've seen, much of which isn't recent, isn't available online.)

Also, after spending about a half century in California and paying attention to pizzas (cooked at home when I was a child) I question the existence of any genuine "California style" (not that some marketing hustler hasn't probably claimed such, to help sell their otherwise undistinguished product). Many restaurants in the state claim an established style such as Chicago or NY, but that's not my real point, which is I don't assess flexible use of toppings as a separate style. Nor do the modern Italian pizza books I have, which show a much wider range of toppings than I've seen in the US (certainly including goat cheese, green herbs, etc.). Thus when people like James McNair popularized a distinctive "barbecue chicken" pizza in the 1980s -- attributed to specific origins in Kansas City or somewhere -- or when simpler "Hawaiian" topping of pineapple and Canadian bacon or ham became popular in the 1970s -- these were new topping variations, among many others tried, rather than distinctive schools, or physical structures.

Edited July 10, 2009 by MaxH (log)

[MaxH]

One more detail, chef.

You're probably well aware of this, but it might be worth spelling out in your writing. Most pizzas sold in the US are variations within a distinct style that's still fairly narrow by international and historical standards. Crust, tomato sauce, toppings, cheese. That combination is characteristic of neither modern Italian recipes (which are much more free-form, and often lack tomato sauce or even tomatoes, and/or cheese) nor ancient (Roman-era) roots, which for obvious reasons had no tomatoes, and from what I've read, were limited to a particular region of southern Italy. In contrast, people growing up in the US unaware of those contexts tend to perceive crust, tomato sauce, topping, and cheese as the very definition of pizza. Mariani's essay (above) describes the development of this larger style in the US, and its introduction to metropolitan Italy after WW2, where it was embraced (as an American specialty).

Many writers have described ancient pizza origins, I think. In the US a popular author with specific references to Rome (and probably a source for many later writers) was Waverly Root, whose books (1950s-1970s) on the foods of France and Italy are standard US references. Root moved from US to Europe between the world wars, where he was a journalist and also the mentor of the popular US food writer A. J. Liebling.