Do You Say Something Or Not?

Miami Danny · March 17, 2009

Amen brother!
I refer to my post upthread
It will change if enough customers want it to, and are fed up with not paying the advertised price.
If enough people, the people reading this for example, make a fuss, then the media will pick it up and the snowball start. Soon servers will complain to their management that they are not getting paid, and hey presto notices advising of service charges (an easy change) will rapidly appear... Of course these may well be in excess of the 8% IRS assumption
I remember not that long ago 10% was the standard tip. Who decided it was 20%? Where next? 25%? 33%? 50%? Why is it a fixed percentage anyway? It takes no more to serve a $200 bottle of wine than a $20 one.
We can change the system
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Just curious-how often have you stiffed and what was the reaction?

jackal10 · March 17, 2009

I'm rarely in the USA, and here tipping (but not a service charge) is unusual. Indeed a few years ago the Good Food Guide and several critics rightfully had a campaign against restaurants that charged a service charge and also left the credit card slip open for the addition of a tip. That practice has mostly died out.

When I am in the USA I tip only if the service is exceptional. I have never been questioned, commented on in my hearing, or otherwise treated unusually.

pastrychefjustin · March 18, 2009

In this situation, how much of an obligation do I have to the server - to contribute to his standard of living? Should I have tipped 20%, because that is expected? Should I have left a note with my 15% saying the service was unsatisfactory so he would not think me cheap? Or should I have stiffed the guy or left a more communicative 10%?
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I would have to default to the standard reasoning that there are too many variables that could have affected the server's overall performance. Factors that may or may not be within the servers control can influence the diner's experience. I don't think it is necessary to describe the myriad of potential reasons beyond other servers, the kitchen, or even the business management team, unforseeable daily burdens, and so on and so forth.

Without explanation, the vagueness of a low tip could be rationalized by the server with just as many variables as the guest trying to rationalize the poor service. Who knows why the customer left a tip like that, who knows why the service was so bad.

Given, very well, a poor service experience may rest solely on the shoulders of a server. The true question here is, what is the best way to communicate about the issue at hand. Holly received poor service, hands down - I agree. I don't believe that just leaving a slightly sub-par tip will give reason enough to cause the server to strive for a better performance the next time.

I feel that it is up to the individuals at hand to determine how important it is to them to rectify the situation. If Holly really wanted to make sure that when he next went to that establishment he would be attentively taken care of, he would probably tell someone how he expected to see an improvement the next time he was there - which should correlate as the reason for a low tip. Although explanations give no guarantee for improved service, it does eliminate some potential misunderstanding and misinterpretation.

Jaymes · March 18, 2009

I can't help but reflect on the fact that for most of my 60+ decades on this earth, 10% was the hard and fast rule. Somehow, that escalated to 15% and now 20% seems to be the rock-bottom minimum, left only by miserly cheapskates.

While the used-to-be standard 10% might well get you a stern talking-to and a boot in the ass on your way out the door.

Busboy · March 19, 2009

I can't help but reflect on the fact that for most of my 60+ decades on this earth,...
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But the restaurant as we know it today wasn't even invented until after your first 40+ decades... :wink:

Busboy · March 19, 2009

I had to laugh when I saw this thread-I started a thread years ago called "Is tipping big the new black?" I'm on to another idea now, that will eliminate all the painful gyrations on both sides of the check-I don't tip, I stiff. And I'm starting a crusade to eliminate the humiliating practice, often for both parties, of being forced to leave or accept a 'tip'. Last night I stiffed two different bartenders, and basically got the same reaction I get when I leave a tip-a blank stare. If a beer is $6, and I give the bartender $6, the sales tax has already been figured into the price. So why not include the tip, too? I'm starting with bartenders because there is usually a good one-on-one with the customer, if they want to let it rip. Then it's on to the rest of the staff. Remember the sign in old bars that used to read "Tipping isn't a city in China". Well, neither is Stiffing!
Stiffing is the new Black!
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I think if you were really serious about this you would only frequent places that include a service charge. If enough people did this it would pressure restaurants to change.
Stiffing the service staff doesn't offer any incentive for the restaurant to change their business practices. You're just saving 15-20% on your meals, paid for by the people serving you.
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First, I am serious about this or I wouldn't have put myself on the line here. Hey your way might work too, and maybe if I owned a restaurant I would include service in the prices. But since I am just a customer, I feel that the change has to come from me, as a customer. When enough people start stiffing to protest the system, believe me, those servers can put their low-grade grumbling to good use-by demanding the same thing the customer wants. Namely, elimination of the humiliating 'Tipping Game'. I think my way is more radical, more dramatic, and certainly more dangerous. Therefore, in the long run, more effective.
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You're not making a statement. You're just taking advantage of a power imbalance to cut your tab by 20%. You can stiff with impunity; if the bartender spits in your beer and tells you to get the fuck out of the place, he gets fired.

If you had any balls, you'd walk into a bar on a busy night, announce in advance that you don't tip and then stay for more than one drink to see how the evening wears down although, arguably a large percentage of people in the service industry have enough professionalism are sufficiently professional that you'd get decent service anyway -- which would prove you even more of a pratt.

And what's so humiliating about tipping? Were you shy as a child?

Edited March 19, 2009 by Busboy (log)

jackal10 · March 19, 2009

Lets do this another way.

You eat at a mid range place - say a steak house with pretensions, or a hotel in a small town.

The meal is adequate, but lots of small points could be improved:

Greeting not immediate and service generally a bit slow

Bread dull and a bit stale - frozen parbake cooked off some hours before

Wine selection generic wines with a large markup

Glasses cheap and streaky

Water spots on the cutlery

The steak when it comes is not quite as tender as it could be

The waitperson has to ask who has what

The garnish is wilting watercress, a cold tomato and an apple slice

Fries undercooked and limp

No condiments offered until you ask

etc etc

I'm sure you have all eaten at such places

The manager oozes up, and interrupting your conversation enguires "Is everything is OK?"

What do you say? What do you tip?

Edited March 19, 2009 by jackal10 (log)

Busboy · March 19, 2009

Lets do this another way.
You eat at a mid range place - say a steak house with pretensions, or a hotel in a small town.
The meal is adequate, but lots of small points could be improved:
Greeting not immediate and service generally a bit slow
Bread dull and a bit stale - frozen parbake cooked off some hours before
Wine selection generic wines with a large markup
Glasses cheap and streaky
Water spots on the cutlery
The steak when it comes is not quite as tender as it could be
The waitperson has to ask who has what
The garnish is wilting watercress, a cold tomato and an apple slice
Fries undercooked and limp
No condiments offered until you ask
etc etc
I'm sure you have all eaten at such places
The manager oozes up, and interrupting your conversation enguires "Is everything is OK?"
What do you say? What do you tip?
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Slightly confusing question as I find steakhouses with pretension and small town hotel restaurants to be in entirely different classes of quality and expense.

In addition, vis a vis this discussion, much of what you describe has nothing to do with the server (winne markeup, the steak's tenderness, the garnish etc) and should not affect the tip.

So, pick two things to mention to the manager -- "I thought the service was a little slow and the steak might have been more tender " -- tip towards the low end of your range (What was it Elvis said? "Less than Zero" for you, Jackal10) and leave, vowing never to come back.

Or just say "everything was fine," tip lower than usual and leave, vowing never to come back.

It's not that hard.

MikeHartnett · March 19, 2009

I don't understand jackal10's argument regarding tipping. So, in general, he would prefer to be forced to tip, as long as he didn't have to calculate a tip or think about service? If tipping is variable, and he gets to choose how much he gives, that's a big problem for him?

Maybe I'm biased, but I can't see the benefit to the customer provided by being forced to tip, except for maybe that those who suck at math don't have to do "x2".

And if he's arguing that foreigners just can't be expected to know that tips are closer to required than not, then I suppose it would be similarly acceptable for me to subtract a bit off the cheque next time I'm in London. I mean, I can't really be expected to look into their crazy, barbaric customs before I visit, can I?

Edited March 19, 2009 by MikeHartnett (log)

slkinsey · March 19, 2009

I can't help but reflect on the fact that for most of my 60+ decades on this earth, 10% was the hard and fast rule. Somehow, that escalated to 15% and now 20% seems to be the rock-bottom minimum, left only by miserly cheapskates.

It would be interesting to do an adjusted-dollar analysis that compares the earning power of a restaurant waiter relative to cost-of-living today and in 1958. I'd be willing to bet that standard of living based on an assumption of a 10% "standard tip" in 1958 would be about equal to a standard of living based on an assumption of a 20% "standard tip" today.

* * *

I'm with those who feel that the tip system in general sucks, and that we should be paying these people a living wage and figure their income in to the price of the food. However, I'm also with those who feel that using this feeling as an excuse to eschew tipping in a country and culture where this is the expected norm and where it is the only meaningful way in which the waitstaff is compensated for its efforts and able to earn a living... well, that's simply a thinly-veiled excuse for being cheap wrapped up in pseudomoralistic sophistry in the hope of assaging one's guilt or perhaps even helping one to feel superior for being niggardly. Jack and others, if you want to bring an end to this practice so badly that you're willing to stiff every waiter that serves you, well then you'd better be out there writing articles, pushing for unionization of waitstaff, being activist on behalf of a living wage and an end of tipping, etc. Withholding your tip money as an individual achieves nothing other than to line your own pockets and deprive the waiter of income. I say, if you're not going to tip in a place where tipping would normally be expected, then it is morally incumbent upon you to step up to the plate and declare your intentions before you are served.

Edited March 19, 2009 by slkinsey (log)

Just Jim · March 19, 2009

For those who would rather that the menu have a 20% increase in pricing so that the establishment can pay their servers a decent wage, and choose not to tip because of this, I ask you:

If the meal price is raised 20%, or you tip 20%, what's the difference?

The out of pocket is the same.

You actually have more power with the current tipping system.

If the menu is priced higher, you pay that amount, everytime.

Under our current system, if you are unhappy for any reason, you can reduce your costs.

So, if you support the idea that you would gladly pay the higher price so that the servers can be paid a decent wage, but currently choose not to tip, you are a hypocrite.

slkinsey · March 19, 2009

For people who are generally against the practice of tipping as the main way servers earn income, I think it's a little more complicated than that, Jim.

No one is proposing that the restaurateurs simply raise their prices 20% and pay the servers 16.5% of each evening's receipts. Rather, the idea is to pay the servers a living wage, and to raise prices however much they might need to be raised to compensate your staff. Server wages would not depend on whether or not there were a busy night or a slow night. They would get paid the same regardless.

This is more or less how it works in most any other business. If, for example, you are a clerk in a hardware store, you are paid a wage as an employee of the store. If sales are down on Saturday, you don't get paid less for that day. Eventually, of course, if sales are down over a long enough period of time, the owner can no longer afford to employ you and you are let go. The hardware store's markup over cost has to "pay for" the owner's various expenses such as rent, heat, insurance, and employee wages.

There is no reason whatsoever that running a restaurant should be substantially different from running a hardware store staffed by hourly employees in this respect, but for some reason in the United States a tradition has evolved whereby restaurateurs are able to completely separate themselves from the responsibility of meaningfully compensating the waitstaff for the work they perform at the restaurant. If hardware stores can do it, then restaurants ought to be able to do it as well.

Stiffing the workers who are more or less "stuck" in the current compensation system, however, is not any kind of way to solve the problem. Frankly, if someone has a moral issue with the tip system so strong that they are not willing or able to compensate the people who serve them under the customs of this country... well, then they have no business eating in that restaurant, or perhaps even visiting this country. I certainly would never patronize a restaurant that was staffed with slaves, for example, nor would I be willing to visit a country that allowed such a practice.

Edited March 19, 2009 by slkinsey (log)

Just Jim · March 19, 2009

Oh, I understand what you are saying.

I was speaking to a select group, not people who fell on one side or the other.

Rather, the idea is to pay the servers a living wage, and to raise prices however much they might need to be raised to compensate your staff.

If you would like the menu price to be raised to provide decent wages, fine.

I agree with that.

I just used 20% as a figure.

If someone just doesn't believe in tipping, I can respect that, even if I disagree with it.

But if you would like the prices raised in order to provide a decent wage, and choose not to tip, you are in effect saying that you would happily pay the servers wage, as in any business, but just not in the manner in which it is done now.

Again, if you would pay more, what difference does it make as to the method in which your money is collected?

Edited March 19, 2009 by Just Jim (log)

jackal10 · March 19, 2009

If I am served an inadequate meal (as I often am) I try to take it up with the management, who hopefully but rarely reduce my bill. In the US the only variable part of the bill is the tip, so that is what is under my control.

Jim: If your voluntary system is not in fact voluntary then that is hypocritical. If its a seperate contract for services, then I should be able to negotiate before the meal what service I want from self service buffet (just leave the food on the table) through full silver service to exclusive attention. I should be able to negotiate a rate, say $10 for wine service labour only, regardless of whether its a $20 or $200 bottle, or even bring my own butler...

Edited March 19, 2009 by jackal10 (log)

KatieLoeb · March 19, 2009

...If its a seperate contract for services, then I should be able to negotiate before the meal what service I want from self service buffet (just leave the food on the table) through full silver service to exclusive attention. I should be able to negotiate a rate, say $10 for wine service labour only, regardless of whether its a $20 or $200 bottle, or even bring my own butler...
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Let me know how trying to "negotiate" a rate for services rendered works out for you. Or even better, how bringing your own butler works out. :laugh:

I'm frankly surprised you're ever served a second time in any restaurant you've ever patronized.

slkinsey · March 19, 2009

In the US the only variable part of the bill is the tip, so that is what is under my control.

And you're saying that, being fully cognizant of the prevailing custom in the US and the fact that your servers depend on tip money to make a living, you choose to reduce the "variable part of the bill" to zero when in the States.

I like your "prior negotiation" model. I think that, when you are in the States, every time you are in a restaurant where tipping is the expected norm, you should notify your server that you expect the restaurateur to pay a living wage, and that you will not be leaving a tip.

I'm frankly surprised you're ever served a second time in any restaurant you've ever patronized.

Since he apparently only does this in the States, which he visits only infrequently, my guess is that he doesn't often revisit restaurants soon enough for there to be any kind of institutional memory of his previous stiffing on the tip. We know that higher-end restaurants often keep track of diner relationships, preferences, etc. I wonder if they also notate their records when someone has stiffed on the tip?

Just Jim · March 19, 2009

If I am served an inadequate meal (as I often am) I try to take it up with the management, who hopefully but rarely reduce my bill. In the US the only variable part of the bill is the tip, so that is what is under my control.
Jim: If your voluntary system is not in fact voluntary then that is hypocritical. If its a seperate contract for services, then I should be able to negotiate before the meal what service I want from self service buffet (just leave the food on the table) through full silver service to exclusive attention. I should be able to negotiate a rate, say $10 for wine service labour only, regardless of whether its a $20 or $200 bottle, or even bring my own butler...
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There are many points in this topic.

You and I are arguing different points.

Jaymes · March 20, 2009

I can't help but reflect on the fact that for most of my 60+ decades on this earth,...
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But the restaurant as we know it today wasn't even invented until after your first 40+ decades...
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:raz:

jackal10 · March 20, 2009

From the main headline in today's Independant (UK)

http://mail.google.com/mail/?hl=en&tab=wm#...2020d4564e84a1b

Fair tips, fair pay? Not in a recession

Restaurants say 45,000 jobs are at risk if waiters' pay law is changed

After The Independent's "fair tips, fair pay" campaign, ministers pledged last July to stop restaurants from using tips and service charges to bring pitiful wages up to the £5.73-an-hour legal minimum. This campaign uncovered evidence that some workers were paid as little as £3 an hour. Some of the restaurant groups are owned by wealthy private equity firms and they were accused yesterday of using the recession as an excuse to stave off paying their employees fairly.

Busboy · March 20, 2009

I can't help but reflect on the fact that for most of my 60+ decades on this earth, 10% was the hard and fast rule. Somehow, that escalated to 15% and now 20% seems to be the rock-bottom minimum, left only by miserly cheapskates.
It would be interesting to do an adjusted-dollar analysis that compares the earning power of a restaurant waiter relative to cost-of-living today and in 1958. I'd be willing to bet that standard of living based on an assumption of a 10% "standard tip" in 1958 would be about equal to a standard of living based on an assumption of a 20% "standard tip" today.
* * *
before you are served.
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I've pondered this before, as well, I'm not sure I agree, given that restaurant dining inflation has, in general outstripped the CPI, at least in the fine dining area.

Hest88 · March 20, 2009

I've pondered this before, as well, I'm not sure I agree, given that restaurant dining inflation has, in general outstripped the CPI, at least in the fine dining area.

Yes, it would be nice to have some data. I'm inclined to think restaurant costs have to have at least kept pace witih inflation or they wouldn't have been able to stay open.

Jaymes · March 20, 2009

I can't help but reflect on the fact that for most of my 60+ decades on this earth, 10% was the hard and fast rule. Somehow, that escalated to 15% and now 20% seems to be the rock-bottom minimum, left only by miserly cheapskates.
It would be interesting to do an adjusted-dollar analysis that compares the earning power of a restaurant waiter relative to cost-of-living today and in 1958. I'd be willing to bet that standard of living based on an assumption of a 10% "standard tip" in 1958 would be about equal to a standard of living based on an assumption of a 20% "standard tip" today.

Why? Not that long ago, I never paid more for my lunch than $5. Now it's easily $10 and up.

So assuming that I had kept to the 10% standard, and the cost of my lunch has doubled, and even tripled, so would the size of my tip.

I think that servers across the land kind of decided to raise the accepted standard percentage, and it took a few years, but they did raise it to 15%, and now they're working on 20%.

I'm not arguing against them; it's partly just an observation. But I also think it's evidence that should they ever decide they'd prefer a wage in lieu of tips, they could change the system practically overnight.

But no servers with whom I've discussed this really wants the system to change.

So it won't.

Edited March 20, 2009 by Jaymes (log)

Holly Moore · March 20, 2009

A solution I've offered before is to tear the tip currency in half, give half to the server before the meal, so the server knows what to expect and, therefore, how much attention to pay the table. At the same time he realizes that he will not have spendable money until the meal ends and the diners are happy with the service. Only then will they turn over the other halves of the bills.

The tipper, if dissatisfied with the service, can withhold one or more of his halves of the bills. Yes he loses that money. But that is not the point as the tipper is leaving a lesser tip not because he is cheap, but because the did not feel he received good service.

Therein lies the beauty of this approach. The money intended for a tip based on good service has been spent by the tipper - he can never get it back. The server only gets to keep what he merits based on the level of his service. The remainder is in limbo never to be spent by either party.

The drawback to this plan is finding a method to cut the currency perfectly in half as anything over half can be turned in at the bank for full value.

I had also considered placing the tip in escrow. But why spoil ones meal by having to deal with a lawyer before and after?

slkinsey · March 20, 2009

I can't help but reflect on the fact that for most of my 60+ decades on this earth, 10% was the hard and fast rule. Somehow, that escalated to 15% and now 20% seems to be the rock-bottom minimum, left only by miserly cheapskates.
It would be interesting to do an adjusted-dollar analysis that compares the earning power of a restaurant waiter relative to cost-of-living today and in 1958. I'd be willing to bet that standard of living based on an assumption of a 10% "standard tip" in 1958 would be about equal to a standard of living based on an assumption of a 20% "standard tip" today.
Why? Not that long ago, I never paid more for my lunch than $5. Now it's easily $10 and up.
So assuming that I had kept to the 10% standard, and the cost of my lunch has doubled, and even tripled, so would the size of my tip.

Well... let's do some math.

I looked in the historical menu archives and found a NY meny from 1957. A chicken salad sandwich cost one dollar. As chance would have it, I routinely buy a chicken salad sandwich for lunch at the price of $5.50. So, let's assume a "standard tip" on those sandwiches.

For the 1957 sandwich, it's a ten cent tip at ten percent. For the 2007 sandwich, it's a $1.10 tip at twenty percent. Big difference! But there's more math to come. Let's go over to this handy online calculator where we can do a "consumer bundle" comparison (the comparison that is most relevant to the value of income relative to running a household). That ten cents in 1958 would have a consumer bundle value in 2007 of 98 cents. So... not quite as much as the $1.10 tip on that modern day chicken salad sandwich. It's more like getting an eleven cent tip back in 1957. Pretty close, though.

(edited to fix a number I typed incorrectly)

Edited March 21, 2009 by slkinsey (log)

Andrew Fenton · March 20, 2009

A solution I've offered before is to tear the tip currency in half, give half to the server before the meal, so the server knows what to expect and, therefore, how much attention to pay the table. At the same time he realizes that he will not have spendable money until the meal ends and the diners are happy with the service. Only then will they turn over the other halves of the bills.

More wisdom from Holly. But I worry that the server, on seeing you about to tear up the bills, will insist that you not tear poor Abraham Lincoln in half, and offer to work for free. At that point, you'll be forced to hand the money right over.

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