Kids in Restaurants in France

[therese]

Some sporadic activity on various eGullet forums re children in restaurants as well as personal experience prompts me to ask this query:

What's your experience with children in restaurants in France?

My own experience is that children are generally welcome, particularly in family run places that might well have children belonging to the owners on premise. Dinners are long, and older children may be expected to sit through the entire meal, but younger children often leave their seats and (hopefully) find a terrace or garden to play in.

My most unusual experience with children to date has been at thalassotherapy spas in the south, where a post partum spa week is an option. The infant (with both Mom and Dad, Mom typically there for a cure, Dad along to babysit while mom is being sprayed and pummeled) accompanies his parents to the hotel restaurant for dinner (an early dinner, in deference to the infant's bed time) where he proceeds to scream his head off for the entire meal.

Not whimpering, not intermittent yelps, but full-on screaming for pretty much the entire meal. Not surprising, actually, as children this age often experience a "witching hour" in the early evening.

It's the response to the screaming that I found puzzling. Not only did my fellow childless diners go on with their meals, politely yelling over the din to communicate with each other and the staff, but the parents seemed absolutely stumped about the correct course of action. A concerned glance at the pram, an adjustment to the bed covers, but absolutely no contact with the actual infant, and certainly no picking up the baby.

Anybody else experienced this situation? This wasn't a one off, by any means: three different families over a week's time, all dining to ear-splitting shrieks, and subjecting fellow diners to same.

[Busboy]

When I was in France -- and in Greece, as well -- it appeared to me that both restaurants and diners were far more welcoming of kids than appears to be the case over here. Families go to dinner, families have kids, sometimes kids are unruly, no big deal. These were not 3-star places, but some of them were pretty nice spots, linen tableclothes and the like.

I didn't experience any serious squallers - though, I expect in a spa offering post-partum treatment they're more common than other restaurants -- but there were a couple of crankers here and there, and the occasional toddler toddleing around. Nobody appeared to think it was a big deal and, indeed, neither did I.

I found the whole atmosphere refreshing, actually.

[SuzySushi]

When we were traveling in France, we took our daughter -- then 3-1/2 -- everywhere we went, including to cathedrals, chateaux, and restaurants. She was generally well behaved. In the couple of instances (and there were literally only two) where she wasn't (because she was overtired), we immediately whisked her out of the restaurant and returned only when she calmed down.

She was welcomed or at last tolerated everywhere, and sometimes even got a "special" meal (e.g., an entree prepared without sauce) -- I don't recall ever seeing a "kids' menu" in France.

I never saw children misbehaving in any restaurants -- but I did see one boy go into a full-blown kicking-and-screaming-on-the-floor tantrum in the middle of a bookstore as his mother stool by helplessly. Other shoppers walked around him shaking their heads.

[John Talbott]

Your experience sounds horrendous. I've been lucky, I guess, in that when there are kids at a restaurant it's either for Sunday dinner (that is lunch) with a big crowd of family and friends or it's people travelling with well-behaved kids.

I've eaten out a lot with our kids and grandkids and I've found that that as an American with a young child, both of us are treated very nicely (the younger one often being offered salami, ice cream, etc. not listed on any visible menu). Yes, we take/took paper, stickers, crayons, books, a jump rope, etc. (Now the place we (with kids) were treated most royally, though, was Japan - they love kids at meals).

[Jonathan Day]

Here's a mystery, at least as puzzling to me as the observation that French women don't get fat and that French people, despite guzzling wine, smoking cigarettes, and eating fatty foods don't seem to get heart attacks.

Why is is that French children -- some as young as 3 years old -- can often sit through a long, multi-course meal, sometimes lasting 4 hours, without melting down, screaming, complaining? I've seen children younger than ours maintain perfect decorum through long menus at one-, two- and three- star restaurants, where ours (who tend to be better behaved at fancy meals than many of their age group peers) can only last an hour or so before needing to leave the table, go play, or generally raise a fuss?

How do the French accomplish this? Is it doses of wine in the feeding bottles?

[Pan]

I've had the same experience as you, Jonathan. I've found French children to be very quiet and well-behaved in restaurants, and that they seemed to be enjoying themselves.

[therese]

Your experience sounds horrendous.

←

Not really so much horrendous as odd. I have children of my own, and like other people's well enough that I'm often the one on the plane who offers to hold a baby while his mother uses the WC or helps getting a stroller up stairs or whatever.

So the sound of crying babies doesn't just make my head hurt but makes me want to help. Which I eventually did. Or maybe I didn't, but this is what happened:

I was at the spa alone, and I'm pretty chatty, so generally end up talking to whomever is seated nearby for at least a few minutes. If I don't feel like chatting I bring a book and people tend to understand that signal.

Anyway, over the course of the wek I ended up seated next to all three of the couples with infants, and in each instance we ended up talking about the little (screaming red-faced) angel. Because I'm an American nobody expects me to exercise even the slightest bit of restraint when it comes to anything at all, so I finally asked each couple if it was usual in France to let crying babies cry. And in each instance they replied that they were more concerned with the disapproving glances they were likely to get if they did "give in" to the child than they were with the din or even the apparent distress of the infant.

My smiling, nodding reply of "Oh, very good" was then followed by the obvious question from the parents: "Um, what do you do in the U.S.?" To which the answer is "Well, we pick them up." "Really?" "Yes, really." "Nobody thinks this is a bad thing? Because I have to admit that it's really very difficult for me to listen to my child cry." "Absolutely. Especially small infants." After some hesitation each couple picked up the little charmer (who quickly became a little charmer until rocking off to sleep) and dinner was much nicer.

So I've probably wrought havoc with these children's socialization, and earned the parents the undying scorn of their elders forever and ever.

[therese]

Why is is that French children -- some as young as 3 years old -- can often sit through a long, multi-course meal, sometimes lasting 4 hours, without melting down, screaming, complaining?  I've seen children younger than ours maintain perfect decorum through long menus at one-, two- and three- star restaurants, where ours (who tend to be better behaved at fancy meals than many of their age group peers) can only last an hour or so before needing to leave the table, go play, or generally raise a fuss?

←

Some French children can do this, and some can't, just like children everywhere.

French parents just don't take the ones who can't yet to nice restaurants.

Instead they take them to small places where they get up and run around, entangling themselves in servers' legs, getting fussy when told they need sit back down, and finally breaking down entirely, though fortunately dinner's nearing an end at that point so not a problem.

[John Talbott]

Why is is that French children -- some as young as 3 years old -- can often sit through a long, multi-course meal, sometimes lasting 4 hours, without melting down, screaming, complaining?

How do the French accomplish this?  Is it doses of wine in the feeding bottles?

←

I hesitate to compare kids and dogs, but.... My wife and I were eating at Camelia in Bougival (en route to Giverny) on a lovely Sunday afternoon and the restaurant's peppy dog attempted to engage a dining couple's dog and he/she just lay there unexcited. I asked how it was that all French dogs were so well-behaved. Answer: The ones that aren't don't get taken out.

[touaregsand]

Our daughter traveled alot with us before she was 3 and some of those trips were to France. We took her to a range of restaurants including a few better places. Never a problem, I was surprised at a couple of the better places the server told me that it was quite alright to change her diaper in the dining room by laying her on the chair.

Overall I wouldn't disagree that French children tend to fairly well behaved. It is also true that expectations of good behaviour are different in France. My daughter attends a French private school and also takes Korean classes on Saturdays. My "perfect, charming, intelligent" (according to all of her teachers) might be considered to have behaviour problems if she attended an American school. She's animated, talkative (big booming voice, clearly public speaking is in her future), daydreams in class, cannot stand in a straight line and runs across the yard screaming "mommy, mommy!!!" when I go to pick her up. I fear she might be prescribed Ritlin if she attended a different school.

I haven't had any experiences with prolonged squallers in a restaurant. But the response Therese describes strikes me as pretty typical. Except for not picking up the baby. My experience in France and with French folks including strangers, in laws, pediatricians and teachers is that the well being of the child as well as the comfort of the mother are considered. Mamman knows best. Whether she picks up a crying baby or not noone will say anything to criticize the mother. It's not uncommon to see a parent publicy very firmly scolding a child, no special trip to the bathroom for this.

French children eat with the grown ups, engage in conversation, they are served pretty much the same things but are free to remove bits that they don't like. They also eat salads with tart vinaigrettes and rabbit with mustard cream sauce even at the age of 4 or 5. Of course it's not uncommon to see 3-4 year olds walking around with a baby bottle. I recall seeing a kid's menu at a restaurant once. It was served in courses which I thought was really cute and says volumes about how children are treated at the table, not about how they are expected to act at the table.

[DCMark]

I think its fairly simple. In France the parents are in charge, in the US its the kids.

No one in France, for example, asks the kids where to go on vacation. They don't feed them dinosaur shaped chicken nuggets, nor do they allow them unlimited time in front of the TV.

There are certainly exceptions to this, however my oberservations of my family here and there supports my theory.

Here's a mystery, at least as puzzling to me as the observation that French women don't get fat and that French people, despite guzzling wine, smoking cigarettes, and eating fatty foods don't seem to get heart attacks.

Why is is that French children -- some as young as 3 years old -- can often sit through a long, multi-course meal, sometimes lasting 4 hours, without melting down, screaming, complaining?  I've seen children younger than ours maintain perfect decorum through long menus at one-, two- and three- star restaurants, where ours (who tend to be better behaved at fancy meals than many of their age group peers) can only last an hour or so before needing to leave the table, go play, or generally raise a fuss?

How do the French accomplish this?  Is it doses of wine in the feeding bottles?

←

Edited May 9, 2005 by DCMark (log)

[touaregsand]

I think its fairly simple. In France the parents are in charge, in the US its the kids.

True, but not so simple. The cultural differences in child rearing, education and attitudes toward children can take up volumes.

[Ptipois]

I think its fairly simple.  In France the parents are in charge, in the US its the kids.

No one in France, for example, asks the kids where to go on vacation.  They don't feed them dinosaur shaped chicken nuggets, nor do they allow them unlimited time in front of the TV.

There are certainly exceptions to this, however my oberservations of my family here and there bears supports my theory.

I agree. This is an accurate way of summing it up.

[touaregsand]

I think its fairly simple.  In France the parents are in charge, in the US its the kids.

No one in France, for example, asks the kids where to go on vacation.  They don't feed them dinosaur shaped chicken nuggets, nor do they allow them unlimited time in front of the TV.

There are certainly exceptions to this, however my oberservations of my family here and there bears supports my theory.

I agree. This is an accurate way of summing it up.

←

DC Mark's response was to a post by Jonathon Day who is presumably English, but spends alot of time in France (I'm guessing based on his avatar). The English and Americans are seperated by a common language and culture.

[Ptipois]

DC Mark's response was to a post by Jonathon Day who is presumably English, but spends alot of time in France (I'm guessing based on his avatar). The English and Americans are seperated by a common language and culture.

←

Whatever. I still agree with DC Mark.

Besides I am sometimes a bit puzzled by the way the French are sometimes examined as objects or zoological or, at best, anthropological curiosity, when there is really nothing special about them. For instance I have read a message here from a woman wondering at "how safe she felt in the streets of Paris". What was she expecting, Euro-savages? I did not react but I was a bit shaken. Also, the number of overweight people in the US, which is the probable result of some kind of imbalance, seems to make some American people view any normal, balanced situation as an exception... In this respect the French are not very different from the Greeks, the Italians, even the British; if it is a matter of diet, the Thais and Japanese are even thinner. To me there is nothing special on the French side, and nothing to wonder at, but shouldn't the astonished look be directed to the other side?

Gimmicky books about France based on this lack of perspective ("Why French women don't get fat?" — but why, indeed, does anybody get fat?), hastily-written press articles and peter-maylish literature do nothing to help this. Seriously, it is simply not true that French women don't get fat, and simply not true that French people don't get heart attacks.

On the other hand it is true that children here generally get a fairly strict upbringing and are not allowed everything they fancy. Trying to be quiet in public is one of the first things kids are taught. Not all are taught this but there's enough of them to make it noticeable.

Edited May 9, 2005 by Ptipois (log)

[kellytree]

One thing is that european kids (generally) are use to sitting through longer meals or at least to eating most meals at the table together.

In Italy it is just accepted that kids are part of life so they will be seen and heard while eating.

My parents are always amazed at how the kids get better service than they do in restaurants here --

[hjshorter]

Gimmicky books about France based on this lack of perspective ("Why French women don't get fat?" — but why, indeed, does anybody get fat?), hastily-written press articles and peter-maylish literature do nothing to help this. Seriously, it is simply not true that French women don't get fat, and simply not true that French people don't get heart attacks.

It's also simply not true that the children are always in charge in the United States.

I am afraid this is turning into another blah blah blah Americans are such bad parents blah Americans eat shitty food blah blah blah Americans are fat blah blah, etc.

Therese said upthread:

Some French children can do this, and some can't, just like children everywhere.

French parents just don't take the ones who can't yet to nice restaurants.

And that's a big difference. Not all American parents leave the bad ones at home - not everyone here has Grandmere to watch them while the parents go out.

[touaregsand]

Gimmicky books about France based on this lack of perspective ("Why French women don't get fat?" — but why, indeed, does anybody get fat?), hastily-written press articles and peter-maylish literature do nothing to help this. Seriously, it is simply not true that French women don't get fat, and simply not true that French people don't get heart attacks.

It's also simply not true that the children are always in charge in the United States.

I am afraid this is turning into another blah blah blah Americans are such bad parents blah Americans eat shitty food blah blah blah Americans are fat blah blah, etc.

Therese said upthread:

Some French children can do this, and some can't, just like children everywhere.

French parents just don't take the ones who can't yet to nice restaurants.

And that's a big difference. Not all American parents leave the bad ones at home - not everyone here has Grandmere to watch them while the parents go out.

←

Now, now I think we can agree that there is no need to bash Americans or American children.

There are too many cultural differences to sum up the results of child rearing practices in one or two statements.

In Italy it is just accepted that kids are part of life so they will be seen and heard while eating.

I think Kelly makes the point succinctly. This applies to France as well and probably more other countries/cultures than it does not. (Note the other thread and the extensive discussions about how children are welcomed or treated excpetionally well in 'ethnic' restaurants.)

[emmapeel]

It's also simply not true that the children are always in charge in the United States.

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Not always, but often enough for it to be noticed. I was totally in charge as a child, and my parents lovingly referred to me as "the boss." Yet I would have never, in a million years embarrassed my parents or siblings by making noise or by being unruly in a public space. And that was the key to behaving properly outside the home. I was told such behavior reflected badly on my family. I don't mind if children act up, but I think it should be at home. It is for this reason that I consider parents responsible for the outrageous code of conduct I've witnessed by children in restaurants in the States. I have never seen this happen in Europe, and perhaps I've been lucky. I once saw a sole child of 3 tolerate a 3 1/2 hour meal in Italy without a peep, while eating with 7 adults. He spoke quietly to his mother occasionally. I think even in Europe that it was unique behavior for a child. I think kids are great and I like them, and I love to hear them talk. Being seen and heard is not the issue. Screaming and running around is.

Edited May 9, 2005 by emmapeel (log)

[Busboy]

Since this topic resurfaces fairly regularly, I often try to recall a time when a child, other than my own, had a significant affect on a restaurant meal. In thirty years of dining out and more than a couple of years as a waiter, I can't remember a single instance. Maybe I'm lucky, maybe I have a higher tolerance than others for background noise. But I sometimes wonder if the plague of ill-tempered children is as inescapable as it is sometimes described.

I need to do a lot more research on restaurants in France . My experience, however, is that French kids are pretty much as fussy as American kids, but people are just a little more mellow about the whole restaurant thing. To a certain extent, eating at even a relatively nice restaurant seems more comparable to eating at a neighbor's house -- dogs, cranky children and all -- than a formal event. People are more serious about the food and their manners, and less serious about the occasional random wail or uncontrollable event, and I find that very appealing and -- as a dad -- much more family-friendly than a lot of American places that attempt to cater to kids.

I also enjoyed the idea that -- even though my children are too old to be getting special treatment -- more than once a chef or patronne offered to cook a special meal for my kids, as children (maybe only American children ) weren't expected to be able to appreciate a proper meal. The whole thing seems much more practical and matter-of-fact over there.

[Tess]

Since this topic resurfaces fairly regularly, I often try to recall a time when a child, other than my own, had a significant affect on a restaurant meal.  In thirty years of dining out and more than a couple of years as a waiter, I can't remember a single instance.  Maybe I'm lucky, maybe I have a higher tolerance than others for background noise.  But I sometimes wonder if the plague of ill-tempered children is as inescapable as it is sometimes described.

I don't recall ever having a meal ruined by kids alone, but I can think of a number of meals made unpleasant by kids plus their parents, with the parents usually being the more important component.

I was out on a date once, and there was a couple with two kids nearby. One of the kids was throwing toys. The parents started making nasty cracks about us, that we were obviously meant to hear, because we didn't pick up toys that landed on or near our table and carry them over to them. That's an extreme example but hardly the only one. I was also seated at a hotel for breakfast several mornings in a row near a little boy who seemed to have some disorder that made him cry out periodicially. That was a bit jarring but did not become obnoxious until they were joined by a grandfather who kept flipping out every time the kid did it.

One thing I think you get more in the US, as opposed to Italy (the only other place I've lived) are people who bring their kids out and pay zero attention to them, or conversely put on a big "look what a good parent" show which consists of talking in a loud, high, artificial voice. The people in the second group are probably obnoxious when they come without their kids, too.

[therese]

Gimmicky books about France based on this lack of perspective ("Why French women don't get fat?" — but why, indeed, does anybody get fat?), hastily-written press articles and peter-maylish literature do nothing to help this. Seriously, it is simply not true that French women don't get fat, and simply not true that French people don't get heart attacks.

Very true. There's actually a fair amount of generalizing in the other direction as well, of course, such that I routinely end up fielding questions from French women (and men) re my weight, and their perception that the majority of Americans are either fat or enormously fat (I'm neither, which is presumably why they feel comfortable discussing it with me). Virtually none of my conversational partners have traveled in the U.S. and either never or rarely see Americans unless they're traveling to Paris or another tourist area.

On the other hand it is true that children here generally get a fairly strict upbringing and are not allowed everything they fancy. Trying to be quiet in public is one of the first things kids are taught. Not all are taught this but there's enough of them to make it noticeable.

←

I'd say there's about as much variation in parenting style in France as there is in the U.S. I was not even remotely "in charge" as a child, and my children are similarly expected to do as they're told.

My experience with children (and parenting) in France extends beyond restaurants and other public places, as my high school exchange household included a 10 year old younger brother and three cousins aged approximately 14, 11, and 7. A loud group of youngsters who ate what they liked of the (generally excellent) meal prepared for their elders, rounded out with pasta or eggs according to their taste, so overall much more lenient than my own upbringing here in the U.S. (where one ate what was served, period). The only time these children ever ate in restaurants was on holiday (and even then usually not).

My French mother taught elementary school, so I got to see her class of 8 year olds' very respectful and proper interaction with her, and and often not nearly so polite interactions with their parents and peers and myself (I used to go along as an extra chaperone on field trips). Again, plenty of child to child variation.

The "not picking up a crying baby" phenomenon that I describe in my first post was not one that I'd previously seen, but then I was only around infants very rarely and then not for extended periods. Their presence in the dining room at the spa is explained by the nature of the spa's treatments; perhaps the behavior is somehow specific to that context as well.

[Jonathan Day]

Of course it's hard to generalise. I have seen French children dining in front of the television, eating frozen foods, leaving the table mid-meal, etc. It absolutely isn't true that every French family has three generations at every dinner, slowly eating vegetables from the garden, artisanal cheese from the farm next door, extra virgin olive oil blah blah blah.

And yet the French families I have known (quite a number now; we spend lots of time there every year and have three children who have exchanged with French students over multiple years) tend to be tougher with children and meals than either British or American families we know.

Just two examples from many I could cite:

- A French mother in London, worried that her 4 children would pick up "foreign" sensibilities; she forbade them from eating meals at friends' houses. The dinners she prepared for their children were classic French -- 3 courses, no holds barred. My wife and I quizzed her. Tripe? Yes. Brains? Yes. What if the children didn't like it? Then, she said, they went to bed hungry. Eventually she insisted on the family moving back to Paris, even though the husband preferred the business environment in London. I should add that her children were very thin...

- A 14 year old French exchange student who has visited us several times, in London and in France. He sat politely at every meal and ate everything we served: vegetables, stinky cheeses. He didn't expect pudding (dessert) at every meal. My son and I had lunch at his family's flat in Paris. Three young children, two guests, small table, four courses. Our children are well behaved, but not that well behaved.

I wonder whether there a parallel to the French state school system, which tends to be more rigorous and competitive than the British -- which is in turn, generally, tougher than most state schools in the US.

[DCMark]

Obviously all we can do is generalize as we have not surveyed every child in the US and France. These are generalizations based on our experiences.

However, whenever this topic comes up, in France or the US, the dominant opinion is that French kids are much better behaved at meals. I would add at school as well. My mother is law is also an elementary school teacher. For fun she went to some classes in Fairfax county and was pretty shocked at the crap teachers take.

I think Italian parents can be quite lax however. The meal most ruined by children was a table of Italians and Engish (but the kids were Italians). The children were horrible, screaming, running under our feet...nothing I have ever seen before. I kept my mouth shut but after 2 hours this French couple behind us lost it. May have gone too far in her berating of this family but it was absurd for them to allow their children to actively badger other guests!

edited to add: There is no Dr. Phil in France with tyrant children nor Nanny 911 on TV. Do these kids exist? Of course, but their parents failures are not quite as celebrated.

Edited May 10, 2005 by DCMark (log)

[chefzadi]

I did a quick read of some of the other threads regarding children in restaurants.

Weird, bizarre, many of the things that are considered negative behaviour in the States would go unnoticed in France. The range of things that are considered bad behaviour was startling in the other threads. A toddler toddling around, children perhaps talking a bit too loudly, some were disturbed even by the mere presence of children, because they might act up. One person said she had 30 years of experience with horrible children in restaurants.

I wouldn't disagree that French parents tend be stricter than Americans (very broadly speaking). The education system is very different also and the French system focuses on teaching children to be "Citizens of France, citizens of the world." There is also a greater emphasis on language (reading, writing, memorizing poetry and recitation, field trips to performances of plays.. which reminds in another thread there was some talk about taking kids to see live theatre or concerts).

I want to stress that expextations of what constitutes good behaviour and how children are socialized in France varies greatly from the American model. Both countries are pluralistic, by the way. Stricter in certain ways, but more relaxed in othe ways. My wife was shocked that in a big city like Paris total strangers would come to us and want to hold our daughter and kiss her. Never, ever would this happen in America, unless of course it was another French person. French teachers are also much more affectionate with students, especially the younger ones. Hugs and kisses are not uncommon. As are words of endearment. A playground attendent always calls my daughter "love of my heart."

I think Mr Busboy summed it up nicely

I need to do a lot more research on restaurants in France laugh.gif. My experience, however, is that French kids are pretty much as fussy as American kids, but people are just a little more mellow about the whole restaurant thing. To a certain extent, eating at even a relatively nice restaurant seems more comparable to eating at a neighbor's house -- dogs, cranky children and all -- than a formal event. People are more serious about the food and their manners, and less serious about the occasional random wail or uncontrollable event, and I find that very appealing and -- as a dad -- much more family-friendly than a lot of American places that attempt to cater to kids.

We are more relaxed about the whole thing.

(I also have experience teaching French and American kids of all ages cooking and soccer. So I know better than to generalize to much about which ones are better behaved. Although I can tell you that American parents get pretty agitated when their child is criticized or reprimanded. )