ages of chefs..

[snoop]

This was brought up in another forum and I found it interesting. It was said that 25 was old to start a chefs career in america and I wanted to know what the suitable age would be. What were the ages of some of our best chefs today?

[Fat Guy]

You're talking about starting a career or becoming an accomplished chef? Most chefs in America aren't college graduates and many aren't high school graduates. Some have junior college. But I'd say the range tends to be 16-21 for most American chefs to start working in a restaurant or 18-21 to start attending a culinary training program. At 22-25 you start being one of the old people in the class in your cooking school, although there are a few such people in every culinary school class, as well as a few college graduates and the occasional person with a post-graduate degree. But as a 30 year old doing a stage in a restaurant kitchen, I was older than everybody but the executive chef, pastry chef, and seniormost sous chef -- everybody on the line was a kid.

In France they seem to start even eariler, like 14-16 and 18 would be old while 25 would be too late for most. There are only a handful of serious French chefs who started in their mid-20s. It seems that on the whole French chefs of similar age to American chefs have been cooking for a few years longer than their American counterparts.

[rslux]

This may be a phenomenon restricted to the CA Bay Area / dot-com fallout, but my husband just started at CCA and he tells me about 1/3 of his class are 30-something career changers.

[Toby]

Colman Andrews published a book of food essays in the earlier '90s, with an interesting essay called something like "Why Sean Can't Cook." His premise was that people graduate from cooking schools, get jobs in restaurants, become promoted to sous chef too quickly and then end up with their own restaurants while they're still too young and/or inexperienced (in terms of wide range of eating/palate education). The downside of this can be cliched foods with cooky cutter menus or odd combinations. The upside is great enthusiasm and physical endurance. Cooking in restaurants is such hard work. Most of my friends who started cooking professionally when they were quite young started to break down physically when they got to their late 30s-early 40s and are now looking for career changes. Of course, if you're a genius, none of this probably applies.

[wingding]

This may be a phenomenon restricted to the CA Bay Area / dot-com fallout, but my husband just started at CCA and he tells me about 1/3 of his class are 30-something career changers.

Follow their careers after they finish school,and see how many people actually enter the profession,especially restaurants....

[nightscotsman]

I'm wondering if the age thing also applies equally to pastry chefs? I know that most European pastry chefs start very young in apprenticeship programs, but it seems like the pastry side is not quite as physically demanding as the savory side - at least in restaurants. Or am I dreaming?

This topic interests me because I'm 38 and I've been seriously looking into making a career change to become a pastry chef. My current job is relatively secure, but I'm just not as challenged, interested or happy as I used to be. The only thing that's holding me back from making the jump right now is not knowing if I could handle the physical stress and repetitive nature of the job. I've read many times the recommendation to volunteer to do a stage at a restaurant or bakery to get a taste of the reality, but I've been too timid to get off my ass and do it.

[jciel]

I, for one, can tell you that regardless of age, fully half of your husband's class will no longer be in the industry within two years. Having said that, I did not begin a "serious" career in food until my mid-thirties, I had worked in restaurants from an early age and had done so intermittently throughout my twenties. If my experience holds, then few younger chefs have had the opportunity to develop their palates. I think that one's palate cannot fully appreciate or articulate flavors until one is at least 30, when one has had the breadth of experience necessary to understand the integrity of the product. If youthful exuberence was all that was necessary to withstand the rigors of the kitchen then many more of the truly great chefs would not still be in the kitchen on a daily basis. Efficiency,stamina and equanimity are much more desirable traits than speed and egoist histrionics. I love restaurant kitchens and would not want to be anywhere else at any age! When I go out, I want to be on the line with that last nibble of foie gras still stuck in my mouth. Just my $0.10

[rslux]

wingding & jciel - you're probably right. I chimed in because Fat Guy had mentioned the dearth of older people in cooking schools and I am not sure if what my hubby is seeing is a trend change or a local phenomenon.

[Basildog]

I left college in '86 and out of 30 kids that started the course, only 2 of us are still in the industry.And only me still in Restaurants.

[wingding]

Statistics from cooking schools,unfortunately will bear with my statement;I work in the profession[pastry] in N.Y.,and have a dialogue with counselors and teachers at the local schools.A lot of people who love to bake brownies and decorate cakes at home go through professional cooking courses,thinking to change careers.They often have no real idea of what the behind the scene workings of a busy restaurant are like,and when they do their internships,they are in for a lot of surprises.The starting pay is very difficult for someone with grown-up financial commitments to survive on.The hours are long.The enviornment is often hot,crowded,and high pressure,making focusing on the work difficult.You've got to really love it,and bear with the conditions.

[snoop]

I wonder what the average age of the line cooks are at some of the top restaurants. Bobby Flay once told me that the avg. age in his kitchens is around 27. I wonder about Daniel's or Jean George's kitchens.

[ngatti]

I wonder what the average age of the line cooks are at some of the top restaurants. Bobby Flay once told me that the avg. age in his kitchens is around 27. I wonder about Daniel's or Jean George's kitchens.

Seems a bit old compared to my line cooking experience. Whatever. Follow your bliss, and know that as a later in life career switcher you may face some predjudices. If you want it bad enough you'll prevail. Heart counts for a lot in this business. Well it counts for a lot with me.

I can teach skills. I can't teach attitude.

Nick

[Suzanne F]

This was brought up in another forum and I found it interesting. It was said that 25 was old to start a chefs career in america and I wanted to know what the suitable age would be.  What were the ages of some of our best chefs today?

What exactly do you mean by "start a chef's career?" Do you mean start from zero, working as a dishwasher or prep cook trying to move up? starting culinary school? starting as a line cook? or actually getting your first chef position?

[snoop]

I meant culinary school. At FCI the average age is older than 25, as is Kump's. At CIA it 23. But also it's a general question, as a lot of well known chefs have started later than their teens. Wayne Nisch, Michael lamonico, Alfred Portale, Matthew Kenney, Ken Oringer, Jonathan Waxman, Jeremiah Tower, etc. I have a few friends who went to CIA in their late teens and said it was a party school, not a lot of maturity in the student body. I don't find this hard to believe as they are still just kids away from home for the first time.

[ngatti]

I meant culinary school. At FCI the average age is older than 25, as is Kump's. At CIA it 23. But also it's a general question, as a lot of well known chefs have started later than their teens. Wayne Nisch, Michael lamonico, Alfred Portale, Matthew Kenney, Ken Oringer, Jonathan Waxman, Jeremiah Tower, etc. I have a few friends who went to CIA in their late teens and said it was a party school, not a lot of maturity in the student body. I don't find this hard to believe as they are still just kids away from home for the first time.

Orringer did his externship where I was Executive Sous. I recall a pretty young kid, maybe early twenties.

Nick

[Nick]

I think that one's palate cannot fully appreciate or articulate flavors until one is at least  30, when one has had the breadth of experience necessary to understand the integrity of the product. If youthful exuberence was all that was necessary to withstand the rigors of the kitchen then many more of the truly great chefs would not still be in the kitchen on a daily basis. Efficiency,stamina and equanimity are much more desirable traits than speed and egoist histrionics. I love restaurant kitchens and would not want to be anywhere else at any age! When I go out, I want to be on the line with that last nibble of foie gras still stuck in my mouth. Just my $0.10

Good words. And they apply to all serious work.

[Nick]

I can teach skills.  I can't teach attitude.

But if someone doesn't have the right attitude, there is no way you can teach them real skills. Without right attitude, little can be learned.

As I look back over my "teachers" I see that it was "attitude" that they passed on to me most.

[ngatti]

I can teach skills.  I can't teach attitude.

But if someone doesn't have the right attitude, there is no way you can teach them real skills. Without right attitude, little can be learned.

As I look back over my "teachers" I see that it was "attitude" that they passed on to me most.

But I can't teach it. You had an inherent willigness to learn. I'm saying it was already there. If one can take something from me, fine. But I don't flatter myself into thinking that my example or presence will automatically instill the right mindset in an individual. The best one can say is "attempt" to instill a proper attitude. Give direction, perhaps.

The attitude part is the "getting out what you put into it" thing which is so often mentioned. I can teach a skill set. It's up to the individual to want it.

I stand by what I said

Nick

[Nick]

Nick, it's just in being yourself. That's what people will take away. They'll take away some of the skills that you've taught them, but mostly they'll remember you. Your attitude.

Edit: By attitude, I mean how you approach things.

[ngatti]

This was brought up in another forum and I found it interesting. It was said that 25 was old to start a chefs career in america and I wanted to know what the suitable age would be.  What were the ages of some of our best chefs today?

After reading the thread over, I'm not sure if you can be so arbitrary. Surely times have changed since I started my first job at 25. At the time I was the oldest in the kitchen. Everyone else being in their early twenties. Certainly the industry has changed along with the publics perception of what we do.

The age thing? I've seen 21 year old kids without formal culinary training who have staged in 4 places in 8 months, emerging with incredible palates and able to make excellent choices constructing menus and specials. On the other end of the spectrum, I've seen Chefs trained in France who were the biggest shoemakers on the planet. Of course the converse of the above statement is also true.

Two cents

Nick

[snoop]

Orringer did his externship where I was Executive Sous.  I recall a pretty young kid, maybe early twenties.

Can I ask what restaurant that was at? I had a wonderful meal at Clio and am a big fan of Oringer.

[Peter B Wolf]

..... who were the biggest "shoemakers" on the planet.......

Two cents

Nick

Love your quote, I have not heard this very professional (within the industry) word used in a long time. Especially not on this board ?? !!

Back to some of the original question. I don't know how old or young some of today's chefs are, or when they started. I started at 15, did not call myself a chef until I was 24, and only because I held a Head Chef position then. As mentioned by many on this thread, some of the conditions and expectations do not agree with everyone's vision. But I miss anyone mention the word "LOVE", for the work, for the job, for the undertaking. These guys that are up there must have it, or would not be there. I never made it "up-there" (well, not quite - but high enough for my satisfaction), but yes, I have LOVE for cooking. I do love cooking.

[ngatti]

Orringer did his externship where I was Executive Sous.  I recall a pretty young kid, maybe early twenties.

Can I ask what restaurant that was at? I had a wonderful meal at Clio and am a big fan of Oringer.

Kenny is a local product (Bergen County New Jersey). I was Executive Sous Chef at the Loews Glenpointe Hotel throughout the 80s. Kenny passed through the banquet department while doing his 15 week culinary externship from CIA.

Now is an opportunity to extol the virtues of the young'uns. As an older management type chef in a corporate environment (that's what I was back then), it can be very easy to cling to a dogmatic tired, "that's the way it should be" culinary approach.

Having guys like Ken Orringer, Joe Verde, Steve Santoro, and Vincent Barcelona (owner of SEVEN in NYC and RiK Lakkonnen's sous chef from Lux and River Cafe), pass through your kitchen ( I think Dan Orr was there too, but memory dims) was incredibly reinvigorating. I think I learned much more from these people than they learned from me. Their enthusiam, exuberance, the new cutting edge ingredients and techniques. These guys had great palates. I'm thrilled every time I read about them. Their success is my success. I'm much better for having met and worked with them.

Nick

[ngatti]

Love your quote, I have not heard this very professional (within the industry) word used in a long time. Especially not on this board ?? !!

Back to some of the original question. I don't know how old or young some of today's chefs are, or when they started. I started at 15, did not call myself a chef until I was 24, and only because I held a Head Chef position then. As mentioned by many on this thread, some of the conditions and expectations do not agree with everyone's vision. But I miss anyone mention the word "LOVE", for the work, for the job, for the undertaking. These guys that are up there must have it, or would not be there. I never made it "up-there" (well, not quite - but high enough for my satisfaction), but yes, I have LOVE for cooking. I do love cooking.

Shoemaker?? I don't know of a worse perjorative one can hurl at a chef.

Love? I've had this converstion with someone else. A local pastry chef (she thinks highly of you Klc). We were at a banquet discussing what keeps us away from our families. What is it that allows us to stress our relationships to the point of imminent divorce. The 12-16 hour days ( My last one away from my current kitchen was the day I flew back from SF; Aug. 28th). The occasional drug and alcohol abuse and less than perfect lifestyle (all that Bourdain stuff is pretty accurate). The fact that we'll obsess about what we do even when not doing it.

We concluded (after some wine), that we really didn't *Love* the business at all. Quite the contrary. We hated it more than we've ever hated anything. But we hate it as if we hate some dreadful women. Some incredibly sexy cold, absolutely beautiful, insensitive, uncaring bitch. However one that gives you the greatest sex you've ever had. The kind of sex that keeps you crawling back to her on your hands and knees like a crack addict after some rock. We concluded that this was an apt description of our relationship with the industry. Right or wrong, I'm still of a mind that this has some truth to it. leastwise for me. I suspect for a few others also.

Okay. Confessions over until next week.

Nick

[Suzanne F]

You the man.