Great British Menu 3

[Gary Marshall]

starter looked busy, i agree, and on the tv it certainly comes across that way but in reality, espcially in a tasting portion format (which is the best way to try anthony's) they aren't that fussy. Certainly when they read out what's in a dish it sounds a lot, but eats much better than it sounds!

[fisherman]

One thing I noticed is that Nigels dishes very much seem to be parts of a three course meal whereas Anthonys are better thought of as part of a tasting menu.

[RDB]

One thing I noticed is that Nigels dishes very much seem to be parts of a three course meal whereas Anthonys are better thought of as part of a tasting menu.

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If you actually watch tonight (Thursday), you will, by the power of television, see that Nigel's dishes no longer seem to be part of a three course meal, but infact will seem to be part of a four course meal!!!

If Anthony is thinking of his as part of a tasting menu as you say, he may be missing the point. I really hope the judges do not penalise him for this oversight.

[fisherman]

I didn't say they WERE part of a three course meal, I said they SEEMED to be parts of a three course meal. Fuck me, if I hadn't grasped how many course they were cooking by week three of series three then I'd be as much of a twat as most people seem to think i am. My point was Nigel seems to be a starter, meat and two veg, pudding type man, no criticism inferred or implied I hasten to add.

Edited April 17, 2008 by fisherman (log)

[Corinna Dunne]

Probably got something to do with it being a competition. 

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Actually, I don't think the fact that its a formal competition makes any difference at all. I've seen an exactly similar attitude in restaurant kitchens around the world. It's certainly not being exhibited by Haworth. It comes down to the difference between calm self assurance and unwarranted arrogance and more importantly the gap between having the technical ability required to acquit yourself at the highest levels in a professional kitchen and the next step which is being a bloody good cook.

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I think you’ll find it outside the kitchen too… and not just on The Apprentice.

Very often, people who are obsessively driven come across as self-obsessed and arrogant, but because there’s a big pool of people out there you will also find plenty who are the opposite and wonderfully balanced. This is a production team’s dream and makes for good TV, so I’m not a bit surprised that they were pushing Tony to get a few good soundbites. IMO, a personality type shouldn’t be used as a yardstick for judging the food, nor do I feel that it is safe to assume that calm = skill/technical ability, arrogance = lack of ability. I fully accept that some people make a choice to only patronise the nice guys, which is their prerogative.

I have never been to either restaurant, but based on the programmes this week, I would love to visit both.

[Andy Lynes]

nor do I feel that it is safe to assume that calm = skill/technical ability, arrogance = lack of ability.

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That's not the point I was making. I think Flinn is preoccupied with technique and skill often for its own sake, while Haworth has obviously moved through that phase (or never went through it) and has the confidence to edit his ideas to the essential flavours. He employs technique and skill in the persuit of flavour - Flinn does so in the persuit of impact, theatre and plain old showing off. Nothing wrong with that and its perfectly natural behaviour for a twenty-something, but the approach does nothing for me.

I was talking to somebody (who best remain nameless) about Flinn last night and he put it very eloquently, "He's a bit chippy isn't he?".

[adey73]

I prefer the expression "like a wanking chimp in a safari park" than chippy.

Edited April 17, 2008 by adey73 (log)

[Andy Lynes]

Fuck me, if I hadn't grasped how many course they were cooking by week three of series three then I'd be as much of a twat as most people seem to think i am.

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I am, quite literally, laughing out loud (I am not however, rolling around the floor laughing my ass off, because that's just plain silly).

[adey73]

Nigel Howarth's Lancashire Curd by Leagrams is made by this man and is served at the Three Fishes

My best mate is married to his niece. And that means free curd for me!

(photo was taken at Thom's Manchester Restaurant Exhibition)

Edited April 17, 2008 by adey73 (log)

[Gary Marshall]

been looking through my michel bras & el bulli cookbooks but there's no tart with a quenelle of cream and berries, surely some mistake?

[adey73]

hahaha ,

That was a massively stupid thing to make in that competition, alien abduction or acid flash back?

[TheSwede]

Speaking of new vs old school, in the intro to wednesday's episode you can definitely see Nigel shaking an ISI Whip siphon which is a dead giveaway for El Bulli style foams...

[Peter H]

Probably got something to do with it being a competition. 

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Actually, I don't think the fact that its a formal competition makes any difference at all. I've seen an exactly similar attitude in restaurant kitchens around the world. It's certainly not being exhibited by Haworth. It comes down to the difference between calm self assurance and unwarranted arrogance and more importantly the gap between having the technical ability required to acquit yourself at the highest levels in a professional kitchen and the next step which is being a bloody good cook.

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Like Corinna said, remember that what we are viewing is an edit made by the production company to suit their aims (and the BBC's). Thank goodness Jennie Bond isn't wandering around the kitchen in this series, but the voiceover is still trying to suggest antagonism between the two chefs.

This week makes it even clearer to me, at least, that it's more about what makes 'good' television than being a real competition. This is like a high jumper against a javelin thrower. Both are trying the hardest they can, but who is to say which performance is 'best'? Any chef at this stage is going to have a certain level of self belief (otherwise they wouldn't have got to where they are), but it shows in different ways.

Tomorrow will be interesting, because it will be obvious to the 'judges' who has prepared each dish. Even then, they will be trying to guess what the diners at the Gerkin will prefer, not what they like the best.

[Matthew Grant]

nor do I feel that it is safe to assume that calm = skill/technical ability, arrogance = lack of ability.

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That's not the point I was making. I think Flinn is preoccupied with technique and skill often for its own sake, while Haworth has obviously moved through that phase (or never went through it) and has the confidence to edit his ideas to the essential flavours. He employs technique and skill in the persuit of flavour - Flinn does so in the persuit of impact, theatre and plain old showing off. Nothing wrong with that and its perfectly natural behaviour for a twenty-something, but the approach does nothing for me.

I was talking to somebody (who best remain nameless) about Flinn last night and he put it very eloquently, "He's a bit chippy isn't he?".

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That's an interesting point and ties in with mine wondering whether the dishes will calm down as he gets older. I thought it surprising when he said that he doesn't care where his produce came from as long as it tasted good, at the same time I admire him for it in some ways (i.e not following the herd with the "simple ingredients, well cooked, locally sourced blah blah blah" which a lot of the time translates as "we can't be arsed to cook anything that is going to take longer than 30 minutes to put together") but wonder whether a little more time sourcing ingredients might encourage him to simplify the dishes a little whilst still incorporating modern techinques to highlight the ingredients.

[Prawncrackers]

My best mate is married to his niece. And that means free curd for me!

Christ on a bike, check out that snazzy waistcoat - that is just marvelous. He'd have to give me free curd too for me not to start laughing at it!

Consider if the judges are bowled over by Anthony's obvious talents and put him through, he would not stand a chance in the public vote. Just far too cocky to be likeable, and not in that marketable-to-housewife Ramsey way either. Funny thing is it actually seems to me that he's holding it back a little too.

Personally i think both chefs have done a great job this week, Anthony's dishes maybe shading it for me.

[PhilD]

One thing I noticed is that Nigels dishes very much seem to be parts of a three course meal whereas Anthonys are better thought of as part of a tasting menu.

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A good point. I question whether the format of the competition meal actually suits an avant-garde modern menu, rather than traditional modern (not meant to be a oxymoron).

Every cutting edge meal I have enjoyed has been structured into a number of small dishes, the extreme example being Adria's 30 different elements/plates (I won't call them courses). By constraining this sort of cooking into the traditional, classical formula it will inevitably impact the outcome. It would be interesting to see the impact on Anthony's meal if he was able to deconstruct four courses into something more in keeping with his cooking.

Maybe this also influenced the regional heats - were the more innovative chefs disadvantaged by the two dish competition...?

[Corinna Dunne]

been looking through my michel bras & el bulli cookbooks but there's no tart with a quenelle of cream and berries, surely some mistake?

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Have you seen red currants paired with rosewater before? This is a pairing I have intended trying. When I was gathering red currants in my mother's garden, the smell of roses was wafting around the place and I thought the two would make good companions.

I think the judging will be very interesting this evening... the pre-promotion bit has it well teed up.

[adey73]

I can imagine them as a good pairing and rate Nigel Howarth implicitly;

however thinking a tart with a side of cream a good idea in this kind of competition is complete folly.

[Corinna Dunne]

It did look a bit 'plain' alright... he mentioned that he might change the dish if he gets further, as there is an option to change one dish on the menu.

[CalumC]

It did look a bit 'plain' alright... he mentioned that he might change the dish if he gets further, as there is an option to change one dish on the menu.

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Absolutely, it was far too plain for this competition. Having said that, i never said i wouldn't pig it if i was served it.

[LizzyWizzy]

What an outrage!!!!!

I really respect nigel hawarth as a chef and his food is great, but how did he win tonight?

Modern British, not really, was it not obvious from the first comments he was going to win?

Anthony looked gutted and rightly so, Matthew Fort, probably the most respected critic in the trade, knows what he is talking about, but the others ?

What right does Oliver Peyton have to judge this competition when one of his restaurants has been fined for mice infestation? does he really know what he is talking about?

Sorry for my rant but it just really pissed me off tonight, excuse the language,

as mentioned before in this thread, the judges obviously knew who was who and it was clearly rigged

I wonder what food the top chefs attending the dinner would rather eat?

Obviously i was not there to taste but............

[adey73]

wow, was 'working' late. Iplayer loading now.

But that means the Olive Magazine theory of the published winners is wrong.

[David Naylor]

What an outrage!!!!!

I wonder what food the top chefs attending the dinner would rather eat?

Obviously i was not there to taste but............

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sour grapes?

[adey73]

It has just pained me to see Anthony loose.

[LizzyWizzy]

What an outrage!!!!!

I wonder what food the top chefs attending the dinner would rather eat?

Obviously i was not there to taste but............

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sour grapes?

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not at all, i m a lady from the south and i said i respect nigel, i just think the whole programme is a bit of a joke!

another topic for discussion the food this week for both chefs is a totally different league to last week?