"Artisan Bread in Five Minutes a Day" Zoe Francois (2008–2009)

[onrushpam]

Would it work to do the refrigerated rise for 20+ hours? Could I put a loaf in the fridge one night and bake it the next?

We had pizza from the last our my first batch of under-hydrated dough. The dough was 2 weeks old and the pizza crusts were even better than our first try at them last week. I stretched them over a couple of bowls and was able to get them thinner than my last attempt. I'll never eat frozen pizza again!!!

I plan to mix up a new batch or two tomorrow... after I go hunting for some rye flour. I'm hoping maybe Fresh Market will have it. Much as I love Publix, they don't have rye flour.

Pam

[Zoe Francois]

Would it work to do the refrigerated rise for 20+ hours?  Could I put a loaf in the fridge one night and bake it the next?

We had pizza from the last our my first batch of under-hydrated dough.  The dough was 2 weeks old and the pizza crusts were even better than our first try at them last week.  I stretched them over a couple of bowls and was able to get them thinner than my last attempt.  I'll never eat frozen pizza again!!!

I plan to mix up a new batch or two tomorrow...  after I go hunting for some rye flour.  I'm hoping maybe Fresh Market will have it.  Much as I love Publix, they don't have rye flour. 

Pam

←

Hi Pam, I've never left it to rise more than 14 hours? I'll wait and bake this one off tomorrow night so I can see if it will last that long. I'll let you know tomorrow!

Yes, frozen pizza is a thing of the past around here!

Thanks, Zoe

[sygyzy]

Thanks for the reply Zoe. My next question is: What does 'crumb' refer to in breadmaking?

[gfron1]

I'm embarassed to say this, but I don't know this either since I don't do bread very often (head hangs in shame).

[Zoe Francois]

Thanks for the reply Zoe. My next question is: What does 'crumb' refer to in breadmaking?

←

Hi. Yeah, that would be a helpful place to start!!!! I'm referring to the texture of the inside of the bread. Different bread has vastly different crumb, so there isn't one right way, and it will somewhat depend on your taste.

Helpful?

Thanks, Zoë

[Zoe Francois]

I'm embarassed to say this, but I don't know this either since I don't do bread very often (head hangs in shame).

←

Hi. Let me know if you were looking for a more academic answer???

Zoë

[gfron1]

So if I say - The loaf has good crumb, then all I'm saying is the loaf has good texture?

[Anna N]

So if I say - The loaf has good crumb, then all I'm saying is the loaf has good texture?

←

I don't know if I am going to help or further confuse the issue but to me ciabatta has an open crumb with lots of fair-sized holes whereas pain de mie should have a tight crumb with no holes but an homogenous appearing dough. If you were to lay a slice of ciabatta beside a slice of Wonderbread you would begin to see what "crumb" really means. Neither is better than the other but they are very different. If you are trying to make ciabatta and end up with a crumb like Wonderbread, then you have missed the mark.

[Beanie]

So if I say - The loaf has good crumb, then all I'm saying is the loaf has good texture?

←

I just noticed Anna's excellent response while writing this post, so I'll just add the results of researching some of my bread books. In Jeffrey Hamelman's book, Bread, A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes, "crumb" is defined simply as:

the inner portion of a loaf of bread.

To that definition, I say:

Peter Reinhardt, in The Bread Baker's Apprentice goes into some detail about "crumb" in a discussion of the fermentation (proofing) process:

French baguettes and other shapes of French bread are often judged by the quality of the holes, or webbing, also called the crumb. When making lean, crusty breads, it's important to retain as much of the carbon dioxide as possible after the primary fermentation through gentle handling. These small pockets of holes become the foundation for the large, irregular holes formed during proofing and during baking that are the hallmark of high-quality hearth breads.

So if you said a loaf has good crumb, it would mean it has the structure of holes you are looking for in the particular type of bread you've baked. In an earlier post about underproved (proofed?) bread, the holes were larger in the center of the slice but got squished together near the crust, an indication that the dough was underproofed (but I bet it still tasted good.)

[Lapin d'Argent]

Hi, all.

Wanted to quickly post about my first loaf which just came out of the oven. It's based on the Light Whole Wheat Bread recipe, with an extra cup of KA white whole wheat substitued for some of the AP flour, and an extra half-cup water added to balance the hydration. I mixed this batch of dough Friday late afternoon.

But here's the interesting part I wanted to share with you all: from the beginning of this thread, I've been waiting for someone to say they tried merging this technique with the No Knead Bread technique from the NY Times, to get that perfect crust without all the fuss of throwing water into the oven.

Well, today I tried it out, and it was a resounding success!

I preheated my pizza stone AND the top (only) of my baking cloche at 500 degrees before I started working with the dough. I just rested the cloche on top of the pizza stone, which was on the rack near the bottom of the oven.

I formed a small boule following the directions (it was nominally a pound, but working with a slack dough the first time, so much dough ended up sticking everywhere but the loaf, I think it lost a fair bit). I formed the dough on top of parchment paper, with cornmeal between the parchment paper and the metal pizza peal. (Sorry, no photos of that part.) Let it rise for 40 minutes -- it showed a little rise, but was very slack still. Dusted with flour and slashed the top.

Then I opened the oven, carefully moved the cloche out of the way temporarily to a rack in the top oven, and slid the dough to the middle of the hot pizza stone. Then I covered it with the hot cloche, closed the oven, turned the heat down to 450, set the timer for twenty minutes, and tried to distract myself as best I could.

Finally, after tweny minutes, I removed the cloche and beheld the most beautiful little boule with perfect oven spring and crust development!!!!

[sorry for the lousy cell phone photos]

A quick check with a thermometer showed that the loaf needed more time in the oven, so I carefully removed the now-charred parchment paper and left the cloche off, and set the timer for another 10 minutes.

This time the internal temp was a perfect 200 degrees, so out came my little baby. The crust was perfect, and when I put it on the rack to cool, I could immediately hear it singing to me!

If you don't have a cloche, I think you could adapt the Cook's Illustrated method of using a parchment paper sling to lower a shaped loaf into a pre-heated dutch oven to get the same result.

Of course, this only works with round-shaped, rustic loaves, or any other loaves that will fit under the cloche. But those are the ones you want that crackly crust for, anyway.

Zoe, thanks so much for such a great book, and for your participation here on eGullet -- you've been a wonderful inspiration to us. And my personal thanks to everyone who's posted on this thread and the No Knead thread; I've learned so much from you all.

- Laura

[ETA photos]

Edited February 3, 2008 by Lapin d'Argent (log)

[Zoe Francois]

So if I say - The loaf has good crumb, then all I'm saying is the loaf has good texture?

←

I just noticed Anna's excellent response while writing this post, so I'll just add the results of researching some of my bread books. In Jeffrey Hamelman's book, Bread, A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes, "crumb" is defined simply as:

the inner portion of a loaf of bread.

To that definition, I say:

Peter Reinhardt, in The Bread Baker's Apprentice goes into some detail about "crumb" in a discussion of the fermentation (proofing) process:

French baguettes and other shapes of French bread are often judged by the quality of the holes, or webbing, also called the crumb. When making lean, crusty breads, it's important to retain as much of the carbon dioxide as possible after the primary fermentation through gentle handling. These small pockets of holes become the foundation for the large, irregular holes formed during proofing and during baking that are the hallmark of high-quality hearth breads.

So if you said a loaf has good crumb, it would mean it has the structure of holes you are looking for in the particular type of bread you've baked. In an earlier post about underproved (proofed?) bread, the holes were larger in the center of the slice but got squished together near the crust, an indication that the dough was underproofed (but I bet it still tasted good.)

←

Thank you Anna and Beanie! Great descriptions of crumb!

Zoe

[Zoe Francois]

Would it work to do the refrigerated rise for 20+ hours?  Could I put a loaf in the fridge one night and bake it the next?

We had pizza from the last our my first batch of under-hydrated dough.  The dough was 2 weeks old and the pizza crusts were even better than our first try at them last week.  I stretched them over a couple of bowls and was able to get them thinner than my last attempt.  I'll never eat frozen pizza again!!!

I plan to mix up a new batch or two tomorrow...  after I go hunting for some rye flour.  I'm hoping maybe Fresh Market will have it.  Much as I love Publix, they don't have rye flour. 

Pam

←

Hi Pam,

I ended up keeping my very old dough (stored for 13 days) in the loaf pan for about 26 hours. I fear it was over-proofed and the crumb was like a wet sponge, the kind you clean the kitchen sink with. Not at all to my liking.

I'm going to start the experiment again, because I think the dough that I was using was really heavy and wet to begin with. I'd made the dough with a cup of cooked brown rice and I think it is just a very dense bread to begin with. Although when I baked it with a shorter rise I loved the crumb and the taste.

So my first attempt at allowing the dough to rise for more than 14 hours was a bust, but I'm going back in to try it again. The difference between 20 and 26 hours may be the difference as well???

I'll let you know when I bake off the next loaf!

Thanks, Zoe

[Zoe Francois]

Hi, all.

Wanted to quickly post about my first loaf which just came out of the oven.  It's based on the Light Whole Wheat Bread recipe, with an extra cup of KA white whole wheat substitued for some of the AP flour, and an extra half-cup water added to balance the hydration.  I mixed this batch of dough Friday late afternoon.

But here's the interesting part I wanted to share with you all:  from the beginning of this thread, I've been waiting for someone to say they tried merging this technique with the No Knead Bread technique from the NY Times, to get that perfect crust without all the fuss of throwing water into the oven.

Well, today I tried it out, and it was a resounding success!

I preheated my pizza stone AND the top (only) of my baking cloche at 500 degrees before I started working with the dough.  I just rested the cloche on top of the pizza stone, which was on the rack near the bottom of the oven.

I formed a small boule following the directions (it was nominally a pound, but working with a slack dough the first time, so much dough ended up sticking everywhere but the loaf, I think it lost a fair bit).  I formed the dough on top of parchment paper, with cornmeal between the parchment paper and the metal pizza peal.  (Sorry, no photos of that part.)  Let it rise for 40 minutes -- it showed a little rise, but was very slack still.  Dusted with flour and slashed the top.

Then I opened the oven, carefully moved the cloche out of the way temporarily to a rack in the top oven, and slid the dough to the middle of the hot pizza stone.  Then I covered it with the hot cloche, closed the oven, turned the heat down to 450, set the timer for twenty minutes, and tried to distract myself as best I could.

Finally, after tweny minutes, I removed the cloche and beheld the most beautiful little boule with perfect oven spring and crust development!!!!  (Photos to follow as soon as I can figure out how to get them off my husband's cell phone.)

A quick check with a thermometer showed that the loaf needed more time in the oven, so I carefully removed the now-charred parchment paper and left the cloche off, and set the timer for another 10 minutes.

This time the internal temp was a perfect 200 degrees, so out came my little baby.  The crust was perfect, and when I put it on the rack to cool, I could immediately hear it singing to me!

If you don't have a cloche, I think you could adapt the Cook's Illustrated method of using a parchment paper sling to lower a shaped loaf into a pre-heated dutch oven to get the same result.

Of course, this only works with round-shaped, rustic loaves, or any other loaves that will fit under the cloche.  But those are the ones you want that crackly crust for, anyway.

Zoe, thanks so much for such a great book, and for your participation here on eGullet -- you've been a wonderful inspiration to us.  And my personal thanks to everyone who's posted on this thread and the No Knead thread; I've learned so much from you all.

- Laura

←

Hi Laura,

I'm so glad this method got you such great results. When the Lahey article first came out we were almost done writing our book. I of course immediately tried his method with our dough and realized it too would work beautifully.

For those of you who don't have a cloche, I've had really nice results baking it under a s/s bowl. The bowl traps the steam and you get a similar result!

...and I agree that this is a great discussion, I too have learned so much! Thanks for your feedback!!

Zoë

[Anna N]

Today's haul:

On the left is the Soft American-Style White Bread and on the right European Peasant Bread.

The dough for the Peasant bread was mixed on Feb 1 and I made just 1/2 the recipe. We had one loaf baked after only a few hours in the 'fridge and it was lovely so I am expecting even greater things from this one.

The most surprising though, is the Soft white bread. Hubby had commented that he didn't see why we bothered buying bread anymore and I had explained that he still liked some sandwiches on woolly store-bought bread! So today I decided to give this recipe a try. I mixed up a 1/2 recipe very early this morning (4 a.m.), left it to rise at room temp for a couple of hours and then immediately put it in a bread pan, left it for 40 mins and then baked it. I wasn't expecting much and wasn't about to blame Zoe if it didn't work out. But it did and amazingly so!

The recipe states that it will make three - 11/2lb loaves and suggests a bread pan with dimensions of 9x4x3. This struck me as odd so I did a search on loaf pans and found that the dimensions seem to be a mix of the two standard sizes 9x5 and 8x4!! (Is this a misprint Zoe?). The recipe states that it can be halved or doubled but halving it poses a problem if you intend to bake it in a pan! It will then make one 1 1/2 loaf and leave you with a rather small blob of dough. Undeterred I put all of the dough from the 1/2 recipe into my 9x5x2 1/2 pan and it was the perfect amount. As usual I converted the recipe to weights from volume so this may have been sheer luck that it fit so well.

We had leftover roast beef sandwiches on this bread for lunch today and it got thumbs up even without a long rest in the 'fridge. I am ever more impressed with the recipes in this book!!!!

[Pat W]

Anna N do you ever sleep???

Both breads are beautiful, but you've really inspired me to make the sandwich bread. By the way, I've also been confused about the loaf pan sizes.

A lovely round loaf of the light whole wheat is resting at this very moment. It's the second loaf of the batch, we though the first was even tastier than the basic recipe.

I made up a half recipe of the brioche dough a few days ago & baked one loaf. It was tasty but seemed kind of small. Since I don't have a brioche pan & am not sure how the finished loaf is supposed to look, I don't know if mine was OK. I'm thinking that I should have let it raise longer. Regrettably I didn't have time to take a photo.

I find myself on a bread baking treadmill because we can't bear to go back to the miserable stuff in the grocery store. Zoe's bread has definitely raised our quality of life.

pat

[Lapin d'Argent]

Today's haul:

Undeterred I put all of the dough from the 1/2 recipe into my 9x5x2 1/2 pan and it was the perfect amount. 

←

Those are beautiful, Anna!

Was your loaf pan nonstick? Any particular brand?

I only have the standard pyrex glass ones at the moment, so I guess I'm going to have to invest in some new ones. Although I wonder if using a parchment paper liner would do the trick?

Thanks.

- Laura

[Anna N]

Today's haul:

Undeterred I put all of the dough from the 1/2 recipe into my 9x5x2 1/2 pan and it was the perfect amount. 

←

Those are beautiful, Anna!

Was your loaf pan nonstick? Any particular brand?

I only have the standard pyrex glass ones at the moment, so I guess I'm going to have to invest in some new ones. Although I wonder if using a parchment paper liner would do the trick?

Thanks.

- Laura

←

Mine is an el cheapo non-stick from Baker's Secret. I would certainly give the Pyrex one a try with a parchment lining and I think you reduce the heat when you use glass?

[Anna N]

Anna N do you ever sleep???

Both breads are beautiful, but you've really inspired me to make the sandwich bread.  By the way, I've also been confused about the loaf pan sizes.

A lovely round loaf of the light whole wheat is resting at this very moment.  It's the second loaf of the batch, we though the first was even tastier than the basic recipe.

I made up a half recipe of the brioche dough a few days ago & baked one loaf.  It was tasty but seemed kind of small.  Since I don't have a brioche pan & am not sure how the finished loaf is supposed to look, I don't know if mine was OK.  I'm thinking that I should have let it raise longer.  Regrettably I didn't have time to take a photo. 

I find myself on a bread baking treadmill because we can't bear to go back to the miserable stuff in the grocery store.  Zoe's bread has definitely raised our quality of life.

pat

←

Yes, I do sleep, not well and not often! It's a habit I acquired when I had 3 little ones and had to study for my university degree and I have never been able to change it!

I am stuck trying to keep dough in a 'fridge that is already too small for my needs. I would love to be able to have a selection of doughs in there but am going to have to look at doing 1/2 recipes and finding more suitable containers!

[Zoe Francois]

Anna N do you ever sleep???

Both breads are beautiful, but you've really inspired me to make the sandwich bread.  By the way, I've also been confused about the loaf pan sizes.

A lovely round loaf of the light whole wheat is resting at this very moment.  It's the second loaf of the batch, we though the first was even tastier than the basic recipe.

I made up a half recipe of the brioche dough a few days ago & baked one loaf.  It was tasty but seemed kind of small.  Since I don't have a brioche pan & am not sure how the finished loaf is supposed to look, I don't know if mine was OK.  I'm thinking that I should have let it raise longer.  Regrettably I didn't have time to take a photo. 

I find myself on a bread baking treadmill because we can't bear to go back to the miserable stuff in the grocery store.  Zoe's bread has definitely raised our quality of life.

pat

←

Yes, I do sleep, not well and not often! It's a habit I acquired when I had 3 little ones and had to study for my university degree and I have never been able to change it!

I am stuck trying to keep dough in a 'fridge that is already too small for my needs. I would love to be able to have a selection of doughs in there but am going to have to look at doing 1/2 recipes and finding more suitable containers!

←

Hi Anna, your loaves do look wonderful! My son happened to be looking over my shoulder and asked me to make the white sandwhich loaf! I know what we'll be doing tonight!

I ended up getting a dorm fridge in the basement for all my buckets. They do have a way of taking over!

Thanks, Zoe

[Zoe Francois]

Today's haul:

Undeterred I put all of the dough from the 1/2 recipe into my 9x5x2 1/2 pan and it was the perfect amount. 

←

Those are beautiful, Anna!

Was your loaf pan nonstick? Any particular brand?

I only have the standard pyrex glass ones at the moment, so I guess I'm going to have to invest in some new ones. Although I wonder if using a parchment paper liner would do the trick?

Thanks.

- Laura

←

Hi Laura,

The pictures of your loaves are great. The color on your crust is gorgeous!!!

The parchment liner is a perfect way to go with your loaf pan. As for hte size of the loaf pans, it wasn't exactly a mistake, but it was a source of great argument between Jeff and myself! We have all different size pans and couldn't agree on the standard. Sorry for the confusion! Because we found that everyone has slightly different pan sizes it may leave some with a tiny extra "tete" for your loaf! You can also use that extra bit to start your next batch!

I always load my pan much fuller than we say in the book and then let it rise longer before baking. I just like a bigger loaf.

Zoe

[Zoe Francois]

Anna N do you ever sleep???

Both breads are beautiful, but you've really inspired me to make the sandwich bread.  By the way, I've also been confused about the loaf pan sizes.

A lovely round loaf of the light whole wheat is resting at this very moment.  It's the second loaf of the batch, we though the first was even tastier than the basic recipe.

I made up a half recipe of the brioche dough a few days ago & baked one loaf.  It was tasty but seemed kind of small.  Since I don't have a brioche pan & am not sure how the finished loaf is supposed to look, I don't know if mine was OK.  I'm thinking that I should have let it raise longer.  Regrettably I didn't have time to take a photo. 

I find myself on a bread baking treadmill because we can't bear to go back to the miserable stuff in the grocery store.  Zoe's bread has definitely raised our quality of life.

pat

←

Hi Pat, I bake my brioche in a loaf pan sometimes and it works really well. It should rise quite a bit and depending on the size of your loaf should sit out about 2 hours before baking. If you are working from the book, there is a shot of the brioche in the colored pictures in the center of the book.

I'm so glad you don't buy bread in the grocery anymore! That is very high praise indeed!!!

Thanks, Zoe

[Pat W]

Well, going on the theory, if you can't provide inspiration, you might as well provide comic relief...

Tonight was pizza night. It was supposed to have been last night, but we were way too tired.

Soooo, after warming the house with the ritual preheating of the stone, I liberally dusted the pizza peel with cornmeal. Then I pulled the last batch of light wheat dough out of the fridge, plopped it on the counter and rolled it out to a perfection of thinness. It was truly a thing of beauty. While happily singing along with Tom Petty, I spread a light layer of pizza sauce one it, sprinkled it lovingly with thinly sliced mushrooms, topped it with fresh mozzarella and stepped back to admire my exquisite creation.

It was at that moment, gasp of horror here, I realized that the dough was still on the counter. I had completely forgotten to move it to the peel before topping. Our kitchen is usually on the chilly side, but after having been warmed by a 550 degree oven for thirty minutes, was quite toasty.

There I was. It was the last batch of dough so I couldn't throw it out & pretend this had never happened. Moreover, even though it had been speedily topped, the magnificently thin dough was growing a little melty and we were starving. What to do, what to do.

Well, I found two new Manila file folders & attempted to slide them under the dough from two different directions. This actually came very close to working. Then I did my best to transfer the pizza from the Manila folders to the pizza peel. As I said, this came very close to working.

We did not starve. The mis-shapen, now un-thin pizza baked up very nicely. While it wasn't the finest pizza I've ever made, it was still better than anything we could have gotten locally or found in the frozen food aisle. Once again, the idiot-proof side of Zoe's dough is celebrated.

The moral of this sad story is: Never try to bake while listening to Tom Petty.

pat

[henri]

Hey all, my first post on eGullet

Found this thread last week and mixed up a batch on Friday evening. It took a bit more time than expected (I was holding my 6month old in one hand and she was trying to grab everything).

After looking around I decided to use the cake saver as our 'bucket', worked out fine.

I used the master recipe found in this thread with instant yeast and KA AP flour (and maybe 1/3cup more water - next time I'll add the water by weight and aim for a specific %)

My steak knife had a lot of trouble cutting the dough, but I managed to pull 17oz (pure luck!) and form them into a ball. Left it on the work bench for 90min and baked it for 30min.

Here is the result. We were happy with the taste, but could have left it in longer to get a thicker crust. I put a pan with boiling water on the bottom rack and sprayed the sides of the oven with some water as soon as I put the bread in the oven.

I think I should have let it rise then cut the slashes, right? I cut them right when I put it on the peel. Also the work bench is close to the big kitchen radiator, so I think I can get by with a shorter rise time.

Nice to know I can make a few more at short notice!

henri

[CaliPoutine]

I mixed up the Chris Kimball( Cook's Illustrated) inspired wheat loaf on Wednesday ( it might have been Friday).

I baked it off last night. I weighed it out and it was close to a 2lb loaf. I think I pulled it from the oven about 10 minutes too soon because the crumb seemed a little moist when I cut it. The temp of the bread was 195F, but I wanted to go to bed last night. I didnt realize it needed 1hour 40 min to rest and close to 40 min to bake.

I looked up the original recipe CI's wheat sandwich bread and based on that, I put the pan of water next to the unbaked loaf in the oven. It has a nice crust, but it shrunk a little overnight.

It made nice sandwiches for our lunch.

I love the flavor of the bread!! I also love that I can bake a fresh loaf for sandwiches every couple of days!!

[CaliPoutine]

Welcome to eg Henri!!

Gorgeous loaf of bread. Great crumb too!!