The BC LDB Topic

[Daddy-A]

This was inspired by a post in the "Flavour" magazine thread, and a similar thread in the Montreal Forum. It seems we have some very strong opinions of the services and products (or distinct lack thereof) provided by our local liquor stores.

What's wrong with the LDB? What's right with it? Is one store better than another for specific items(West 39th for example)? What are the best work-arounds to the LDB (i.e. private wine stores, VQA stores, etc.).

Members in Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba feel free to add your experiences so we poor BC'ers can read how it should be done!

A.

[Foodie in Vancouver]

My major complaint about the BCLDB is the total and utter lack of customer service. Just for fun, and on several occasions, we have gone to the Cambie and 39th Ave store with the express purpose of buying wine based on staff recommendations - but verbal recommendations. Well talk about a futile exercise! We have tried looking lost, talking loudly about our indecision, humming and hawing, standing in front of the wine racks and pulling out and putting back selections - everything short of directly asking for help. Do you think that even once someone came over and asked us if they could help us?

So we move to Plan B - ask for help. That works less than 50% of the time. "I don't know much about the wine products." "The wine guy is on his break." "The product specialist isn't in today." But, if we did get the right person they knew what they were talking about and often went into the office to bring out their tasting notes. But why does it have to be so difficult to get knowledgable assistance?

An additional complaint is the restriction around sampling. Why does it have to be such a big deal only offered under extraordinary and highly unusual circumstances. I don't know all the details but I have been lead to believe that even the private stores face fairly signigicant barriers - but I could be mistaken.

And, lastly, why aren't there more private stores, wine sold in grocery outlets (after all, the best way to drink wine is with food) and some price differentiation/sale pricing? If you go to the US, you can hunt out bargins and especially in the common wines, (no slur intended) find some real deals from time to time. Why isn't this possible here?

I have heard that the staff at the Dunbar store is very knowledgeable and more helpful but the only time I went there I almost got killed in the parking lot and got an acute case of claustraphobia in the the tiny, dingy and cramped store. Wouldn't go back because of these reasons.

Speaking of nice wine premises, both the Kits Wine Cellar and Taylorwood Wines in Yaletown are lovely to shop at. Taylorwood, in particular is beautifully appointed and both have a pleasant ambiance and sincere, knowledgable staff.

[Coop]

I'm a pretty big fan of the 39th and Cambie store. I don't usually look to the staff for advice but when I do I find them very helpful. That being said it certainly doesn't compare to the private stores like the Marquis, Kit's and Dundarave (same owner) or even some of the Liberty locations. I will shop at the LDB in most cases for everything I can because it saves me money.

If I am looking for something unique or off the beaten track I will go to one of the private stores. Good examples for me are Micante from Maremma, Fontodi Chianti Classico, Santa Julia Tardio and the La Saretta di Belguardo which are not available at the LDB. If you look around we have as good an opportunity for selection as they do in a comporable US city like Seattle. Wine crazy cities like San Francisco blow us out of the water though. As for Alberta the kitchen faucet could run Petrus 82 and I wouldn't live there.

As for the pricing policy, I agree it is frustrating to see others around the world paying less. that being said the mark up and taxes from liquor and smokes pays for a lot of what we have here in B.C. Is this right or wrong? I can live with it. Some can't.

[peppyre]

I am really not joking when I say that one of the best liquor stores for selection and clearance products is the Whalley location. Yes folks, the Whalley liquor store. My mom is always bringing out amazing wines for dinner and I'll ask which store she bought it from; Whalley 90% of the time.

As for tastings, they are regulated by the government and it's really hard to pour in a public place. There are a lot of hoops to get them set up. They're also not fun to do as you usually end up with some guy who's already pissed coming back and trying to take your entire bottle. I hear lots of stories about the LDB and I certainly wouldn't want to deal with them a regular basis.

Another good store for selection and service is Park Royal. The wine specialist is usually always there and knows his stuff.

Edited December 1, 2004 by peppyre (log)

[Keith Talent]

I don't totally hate the LDB, I thinks it's the best option outside of the only real sensible solution, total unrestricted beer and wine sales in any and all retail establishments. The problem with some half-assed privatization scheme is that only a few stores will specialize in nice stuff, the vast majority will sell Yellow Tail and not nuch else. The days of a reasonable selection in every store will be gone. I eagerly await the day when I can stroll into my Canadian Tire and grab a case of their private label cuvee, along with the pop up tent and gas'n'go system.

The worst thing about the LDB is their pathetic lack of online ordering on their website. it's 2004, why can I not place an order for pickup at my local online?

And our wine prices are pretty fair IF you're a smart shopper. Mid-priced Eurpoean wines can occasionally be very cheap, in comparrison to the states at least.

[James Kendal]

As for the pricing policy, I agree it is frustrating to see others around the world paying less. that being said the mark up and taxes from liquor and smokes pays for a lot of what we have here in B.C. Is this right or wrong? I can live with it. Some can't.

←

Fact: The Alberta Government makes twice as much in tax revenue than either B.C. or Ontario on the sale of Alcohol. Alberta maintains the wholesale division where product in centrally located and, believe it or not, is delivered to LRS and licencees! I'll take Alberta Hospitals over B.C. any day of the week.

Fact: B.C., does not deliver, has a select group of Mandarins (buyers) that determine which product we can buy, severely restricts small producers, makes you line up at all hours of the morning to wait for a Bordeaux release. Overpays line staff who know squat about product.

I would much rather see private enterprise be successful with wine stores. In B.C. Marquis is a great example. But next time you are in Calgary have a look at the selection and availability of world wide product.

[montrachet]

I eagerly await the day when I can stroll into my Canadian Tire and grab a case of their private label cuvee, along with the pop up tent and gas'n'go system.   

The worst thing about the LDB is their pathetic lack of online ordering on their website. it's 2004, why can I not place an order for pickup at my local online?

←

You mean like the Ch. Motomaster Grand Pneus Cuvee?

I agree that we need an online ordering system not just for current stock but for futures as well.

-m

[nwyles]

I just want to chime in a quick question or statement.

When this debate was going in in B.C. , I heard a chap from Alberta come on the radio as a guest and make an interesting statement that got me thinking.

Just to be clear, my experience with the BCLCB is mostly at 39th and Cambie and I know what I am doing in the store, know who to ask for help and know which registers to cash out at. It is a generally positive experience.

The statement that this chap made was that the Alberta Government, although still making the same amount money from taxation of alcohol, were seeing that profit ( and that is what it is all about ) eroded by increaded "policing costs ". More inspectors, education, monitoring private store etc. Lots of headaches with stores selling to minors, bootleg booze, payola, back door deals etc.

With our system, the clerk at the liquor store is not motivated by profit, making the sales, moving the product etc. His / her mandate is to do what management says. They are not selling to minors, drunks etc. There is a certain amount of monitoring going on right at the checkout stand. There is no wheeling and dealing on price etc. No deadbeat customers as it is all C.O.D.

James, I am intereted by the statement that Alberta makes twice as much money on alcohol. With a centralized distribution system, they would. They are not in the staffing business, retail business, no retail leases to worry about. There must be a downside otherwise all Provinces would be using this system. I am curious to find out what they might be.

I do not seem to recall what derailed our privitization process. I stopped being interested in it long before that.

Would we have more selection ? The market will dictate that. If there is a demend, the product will be there. Nobody, private or government want dead inventory on the shelf. Are there difficulties getting new products listed ? Sure is. Will that go away ? I do not know. Someone will have to decide what products come and go from the Province. Probably the same old mandarins making that call.

Interesting thread, hope to see lots of action here.

Edited December 1, 2004 by nwyles (log)

[montrachet]

Just got back from the Dunbar BCLCB and had about a half an hour of quiet solitude rummaging around the store on my own without any disturbance. I find some (not all) of the private stores in the West End assess the customer's degree of wine and spirit knowledge and move stock according to winery incentives or inventory control.

I miss the days when SBonner was at the helm of a fine wine outlet. I would drive all the way to West Van for the great selection and service.

Cheers!

[Viola da gamba]

When living in Vancouver, we found that the Park Royal guys were great for information, but that the Cambie store was better for selection. We tended to go to Liberty's for specialty products. INterestingly, Mark Anthony's on Oak had - on at least one occasion - some wine that had been "remaindered" from the stock of a restaurant that had burned down - a source of cheap, unusual wine at a very good price that I wouldn't have otherwise looked for. The Alberni St. LDB store used to be quite good - and never too packed.

Interestingly, now we're in Smithers, we've found that the LDB outlet up here is really very good for wine. I haven't talked to them much about why they're good (I think the local wine appreciation club is very involved, given the tasting notes, etc. that are available), but they tend to stock A LOT more than just Yellow Tail, and the prices seem reasonable - and varied - it's not all low end or high end, but a good selection of both. And the stock seems to move. The staff tend to be well-informed, and if they're not, they know (a) who is, and (b) have the tasting notes generally available if you ask.

Last time we were in Alberta - admittedly not in Calgary, but in a town comparable in size to Smithers - we found that the liquor store had very little wine, that it was no cheaper than BC, and that the staff were dreadful. Good selection of cheap rum, though.

[Viola da gamba]

I'm not sure if this belongs here or at the other LDB thread - but I think it follows from what was stated by James. I agree that privatization might help concerning selection, price, etc. in Vancouver or Victoria or other larger centres (but perhaps not Prince George ) - but I really hate to think what it will do to the availability of anything other than mainstream stuff in smaller towns - we're living up North and, quite frankly, have been impressed with the LDB store. The private beer & wine stores? Not so much. That was also our experience in Alberta once you got outside of the bigger towns/cities - privatization works great if you're living in an urban centre or looking for cheap spirits, but keeping an interesting selection of wine becomes more of a challenge. I know the world is centred on Vancouver & Victoria, but hey - we like drinking wine up here too, and privatization would likely make that just a little more complicated.

Just my 2 cents.

[2roost]

Below is an excerpt from my newsletter from October of 2001 - some minor changes have happened but the song mostly remains the same. I have found some BCLDB store managers to be willing to bring in requested products so there is hope

As for shelving privatization I think the government's struggles with unionized health care workers and a larger than expected deficit had more to do with it than a DUI (and when is a DUI comedy?). I have no intimate knowledge but I would imagine increased privatization in some form is still simmering away on some Liberal back burner, especially if can generate more revenue than the current system.

I also believe that a monopoly can work - just check out Ontario, great selection, better pricing and, in my experience, good customer service.

"Those of you who know me will already be aware of my sentiments regarding the stumbling behemoth that is the BCLDB - these people are not our friends. The government of BC is one of the largest single buyers in the beverage alcohol industry in the world and what are we getting in return ? - poor selection, high prices and little or no customer service. For those of you who think all monopolies act this way I would advise you to contact the Ontario counterpart and see the selection/pricing and service they provide (www.lcbo.com is a good starting point).

Now I don't want to go off on a rant here BUT the BCLDB has abandoned the consumer in a wash of cheap plonk or ridiculous high priced limited selection items, every year it gets harder for me to find good value while the selection shrinks and the prices go up ( Please don't blame the Canadian dollar - the dollar is only weaker against the US dollar in relative terms over the past 3 years). The buying patterns are bizarre - the sale of French wines is one of the dormant categories in BC yet we have as many red wines from the Rhone Valley listed as all of Australia !!! The only hope the average consumer has is to shop at 39th and Cambie and hope for the best.

I urge you to start a dialogue with your local BCLDB store manager and press for the listing/shelf position of the wines you drink if they are not already on his/her shelf. It is for this purpose that I always list the CSPC code numbers on my recommendations.

I also urge you to begin to shop at private outlets and discuss your preferences with the manager/buyer in these locations, shop around because if you buy two $15 bottles a week that's $1500 a year on wine - that sort of spending deserves some comparative element. Talk to the manager at the restaurants you frequent if you feel their wine lists are not adequate, if we put enough pressure on the buyers on both private and public levels maybe we will get some more selection and value. Maybe."

[Xando Head]

My biggest beef as a consumer is why certain items seem to end up de-listed ... like one of my faves, Nocello.

[James Kendal]

This past September I went like a faithful dog to the Fort St. Store in Victoria to get my Bordeaux. This always turns out to be a gong show and if you don't line up at 2 AM your not getting much. Even worse some of the LRS scooped everything???

I spent 2 years working in Ontario and every month the Vintages arm of the LCBO would invite you monthly in advance of the release to taste every single product then give you the option to pre-order. By doing this it allowed restaurants to have access to product and guarantee that you are going to get it.

Ontario is not too bad and Ontario allows for a consignment system so you can work with agents that have specialized portfolios. They will also deliver the product to you. A good example is Rogers & Co. http://www.rogcowines.com/

Most agents prefer liquor boards as it guarantees listings and they don't have to go from store to store to sell their product. The larger VQA wineries like this system as well as it gets their product on shelves. However, unique products, small producers, obsucure wines, up and coming regions are almost non-existant. Also the selection of wine between $25 and $35 dollars is brutal. 2 nights ago I scanned the shelves at the Fort St specialty store and there was great selection but almost everything in the specialty section was $75 plus...

We now have some interesting LRS in Victoria but they are even more expensive as they, also, buy from the board and their discount is minimal.

What the BCLDB could do to create more support and appreciation.

1. Create more knowledge amongst staff and teach better customer service. Place a least 1 consultant in every store and have a "vintages corner" in rural stores.

2. Offer delivery for licencees. (I buy 1/2 million dollars worth of product and "they don't deliver")

3. Offer on-line ordering and create an e-newsletter for new releases.

4. Create a more up to date data base to track down inventory.

5. Allow better allocation systems for agents so they can reward their long-term customers.

6. Create a fixed per bottle tax structure in stead of a % base. It is absolutely ludicrous that they take a 100% mark up straight across the board on product. (talk to small wineries in the US and you will find out why they are not interested in shipping product to the BCLDB).

7. Offer wholesale pricing for the trade. This will energize the restaurants and put more dollars back in the economy.

8. Determine purchasing based on world wide trends and not on the vagaries of a portfolio managers whims. (I know that the buyer for NZ wines does not like NZ wines nor feels the need to add new ones).

9. Create a level playing field for specialty stores that know their market and can provide superior selection and service (my first stop on the mainland is always at Marquis).

Just my thoughts.

[Megaroo]

I absolutely HATE the BC Liquor Stores... although I can only speak for what is out here in the Valley. There is never anyone who knows anything about wine on staff to help out... for someone who is just starting to learn about wine, assistance would be greatly appreciated. I'm also annoyed at the selection - I can't find wines that I've tried and liked before, and when I try a wine that's readily available at the BC Liquor stores and find I really like it, when I go back, it's usually gone. I understand that you can't possibly have every wine available to man - but I think I would love having online ordering.... then I might be able to get the wines I'd like!

[mangez]

My personal experience at 39th & Cambie liquor store:

1. Go try out Staff's Recommendations on the racks.

2. Get staff to recommend stuff they have personally tried. Ask for the biggest bang for the bucks. I find staff there most familiar with wine between $15-30.

3. I just printed the latest Wine Spectator Top 100 in 2004 and will just bring the list to the store for random matching.

For higher end stuff, I usually do my own homework and now it may be a good time to buy from the US? I used to ship goodies to my locker at Seattle Wine Storage in the early 90s but since they have changed the state law not allowing them to accept out of state shipments at the location, I may try the Letter Carrier Instead?

By the way, does anyone know any good shippers willing to deliver wine to BC from Ontario or Alberta?

Edited December 3, 2004 by mangez (log)

[Coop]

For all you Francophiles who lined up for 2001 Bordeauxs. Get in line now for your DRC. Good news too the Romanee Conti is only $2,000.00 a bottle!

[Coop]

BTW I know a lot of you think privatization would bring us more Marquis' and Kitsilano wine cellars but in my opinion it would just bring us more Haney Hotel Liqour Stores. Lot's of Molson's and Labbat's, a bit of Yellow Tail and no Hecula, or Campaccio. Saving money to me is secondary to selection. I can't see the Alberta model improving that. Also keep in mind that all those employee's some of you loath would get huge settlement packages that we would be paying for.

[montrachet]

It was several years ago now but I remember going to the Hop & Vine Beer and Wine store in Burnaby. At least 99% of the customers were there for cases of cold beer but the other side of the room had a decent selection of wines. Not much mind you but I was able to pick up some Isole et Olena, Carpineto and Argiano that back then, not many other outlets carried. For private stores, the selection seems to invariably represent the preferences of the proprietor.

Does anyone shop at the John B Pub store? I hear the selections are quite good.

[maxmillan]

I agree with Viola. For those who want a larger property and have to live in the burbs, be prepared to get cheap plonk at the local private stores. Inventory selection is made according to the neighbourhood (example, Dunbar will carry more high-end wine than East Hastings.) regardless of whether it's private or govt.

[2roost]

I agree that privatization might help concerning selection, price, etc. in Vancouver or Victoria or other larger centres (but perhaps not Prince George    ) - but I really hate to think what it will do to the availability of anything other than mainstream stuff in smaller towns - we're living up North and, quite frankly, have been impressed with the LDB store.  The private beer & wine stores?  Not so much.  That was also our experience in Alberta once you got outside of the bigger towns/cities - privatization works great if you're living in an urban centre or looking for cheap spirits, but keeping an interesting selection of wine becomes more of a challenge.  I know the world is centred on Vancouver & Victoria, but hey - we like drinking wine up here too, and privatization would likely make that just a little more complicated.

Just my 2 cents.

←

In your post you note how you are impressed with the local LDB store - so if privatization comes in and the demand for the products your LDB store carries exist a Private Store will stock them. The private stores currently have little incentive in small markets to be more than "conevenience stores" because they can't compete with the LDB on prices. Once the artificial price advantage is gone the laws of supply and demand will take over - stores will stock what sells and what gives them an advantage over their competitors.

Yes the vast majority of "private" outlets will be full of YellowTail and Mike's Hard whatever but so are most LDB stores - if there is demand for, and consumer pressure to stock, interesting niche products they will be there.

Given that most of the world manages with a private beverage alcohol retail system I, for one, am ready to give it a try.

[stovetop]

In regards to Privatization, the one thing I wish would happen is some objective reporting of the industry in Alberta. So far all that seems to show up here in BC is content supported by the Union or by the Pub association; this prospective is a bit biased and is full of propaganda.

I was in Alberta at the end of the summer and what I found was very different pricing and supply, but what I love best is a much better selection of wines from all regions, I know that Alberta does not have a wine industry so this could lead to a non protection type of industry, there is not a wine industry pressuring the industry to lean one way or another in the supply of wine. It does though produce an excellent selection of wines from all regions, this I like.

The service of the Gov will be their down fall, if the union wants to keep this poor service going we in the industry will eventually not to support your job. You are gov workers, you work for us, and I just wish that you would provide way better service for restaurants.

The knowledge of wine in the liquor store is average to poor and secondary service is non existent, when a restaurant spends thousands of dollars, why can not the gov deliver.

These are all questions for the Managers of liquor stores, we are not out to get the Union but you need to be more proactive in the pursuit of excellence.

steve

Edited December 4, 2004 by stovetop (log)

[annanstee]

You know, I love Marquis, but I also really always have found the staff at liquor store quite helpful in making recommendations. Sure you have to ask, but the staff at 39th and Cambie, 8th and Cambie, Alberni and Thurlow, have all spent considerable time with me.

I also went on a road trip to Alberta this summer, and absolutely did not see lower liquor prices. Most of them were higher, esp in the less competitive markets outside of Calgary.

I still think there is a place for the LDB, but I would like to see wine and beer in grocery stores, and more opportunity for private vendors.

Ann

[2roost]

David Scholefield, who used to run the wine purchasing for the province, took the bull by the horns and signed up a crack team of judges.

Jamie

←

Ahh the Scholefield years , that glorious era in B.C. when the constant over purchase of fine Burgundy, obscure Bordeaux and excellent, though little known, Vino de Tavola led to the annual "March Madness - 50% off sales".

I miss those halcyon days.

Edited December 16, 2004 by 2roost (log)

[keyes]

Greetings,

I live in Dunbar and am very happy with the service .

I put forth to all, if you find a good rep in any of the stores, get them connected to egullet.

"keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer" lol

p.