Classic Glace Recipe

[David Ross]

Can anyone give me Escoffier's original recipe for making a classic chicken based glace' sauce? I know it is a lengthy process that involves lots of bones, vegetables and reductions over the course of many days, but I'd like to venture into making a feeble attempt at the original.

I've done lots of dishes using shortcuts to create a chicken jus or chicken demi-glace and I've used commercial demi-glace products to help me along the way, but I'm still coming up short in terms of deep chicken flavor. I thought I'd try the master's original recipe. Any help is appreciated.

[paulraphael]

to make 10 liters of stock, it uses 22 lbs of veal shin, trimings, and bones; 4 raw chicken carcasses; giblets; and 3 "boiling fowls" ... whatever those are. and some mirepoix veggies and a bouquet garni.

if this sounds reasonable to you, let me know and i'll scan the recipe for you.

Can anyone give me Escoffier's original recipe for making a classic chicken based glace' sauce?  I know it is a lengthy process that involves lots of bones, vegetables and reductions over the course of many days, but I'd like to venture into making a feeble attempt at the original. 

I've done lots of dishes using shortcuts to create a chicken jus or chicken demi-glace and I've used commercial demi-glace products to help me along the way, but I'm still coming up short in terms of deep chicken flavor.  I thought I'd try the master's original recipe. Any help is appreciated.

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[andiesenji]

a "boiling fowl" is an older laying hen at least a year old and quite heavy, or a guinea hen that is a similar age and has developed tough, stringy meat, the tendons are thick and the bones are thick and have large marrow cavities.

The meat is going to be discarded but the broth or stock produced from birds this age will have far more flavor than one can extract from a younger bird.

If you can find a supplier of "free-range" eggs in your area, you can contact them about purchasing "stewing hens" as these birds, that have more varied feed than battery chickens, will give you stock with a lot more flavor.

There are two independent butcher shops in my area that will order stewing hens and I also buy guinea fowl at the Mexican supermarkets. They will also get "soup chickens" for me if they have a couple of days notice.

[David Ross]

to make 10 liters of stock, it uses 22 lbs of veal shin, trimings, and bones; 4 raw chicken carcasses; giblets; and 3 "boiling fowls" ... whatever those are. and some mirepoix veggies and a bouquet garni.

if this sounds reasonable to you, let me know and i'll scan the recipe for you.

Can anyone give me Escoffier's original recipe for making a classic chicken based glace' sauce?  I know it is a lengthy process that involves lots of bones, vegetables and reductions over the course of many days, but I'd like to venture into making a feeble attempt at the original. 

I've done lots of dishes using shortcuts to create a chicken jus or chicken demi-glace and I've used commercial demi-glace products to help me along the way, but I'm still coming up short in terms of deep chicken flavor.  I thought I'd try the master's original recipe. Any help is appreciated.

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Yikes, 22lbs. of baby cow bones! I found a copy of Escoffier's original recipe in a French reference cookbook I have and it's pretty detailed. If I can scare up the veal bones, I may, may, give it a try. If I do I'll report back.

[deltadoc]

I've got the American translation of Escoffier's Art of Cooking circa 1964. The recipes are all numbered. Can you tell me what number the recipe is? I've read through the whole book and don't remember seeing such a recipe. Closest was the low numbered recipes for brown stock, Espagnole sauce, and then the recipe for combining them into demi-glace.

tx,

doc

[nibor]

here are two independent butcher shops in my area that will order stewing hens and I also buy guinea fowl at the Mexican supermarkets.  They will also get "soup chickens" for me if they have  a couple of days notice.

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Independent butcher shops? Whereabouts in S. California are you talking about andiesnji?

[Mikeb19]

Can anyone give me Escoffier's original recipe for making a classic chicken based glace' sauce?  I know it is a lengthy process that involves lots of bones, vegetables and reductions over the course of many days, but I'd like to venture into making a feeble attempt at the original. 

I've done lots of dishes using shortcuts to create a chicken jus or chicken demi-glace and I've used commercial demi-glace products to help me along the way, but I'm still coming up short in terms of deep chicken flavor.  I thought I'd try the master's original recipe. Any help is appreciated.

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Modern sauces are much better than the old ones, theres a reason no top restaurants use the old sauce repetoire anymore...

The key to a flavourful jus, is to start with a flavourful bird. Most grocery store chickens are sorely lacking in flavour, so find a free range bird, then proceed from there.

[andiesenji]

here are two independent butcher shops in my area that will order stewing hens and I also buy guinea fowl at the Mexican supermarkets.  They will also get "soup chickens" for me if they have  a couple of days notice.

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Independent butcher shops? Whereabouts in S. California are you talking about andiesnji?

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I live in Lancaster. On Avenue L, just east of 10th street West is "Ben's Corner" a produce market in which there is a separate business, a butcher shop.

A few miles north, in Rosamond, is an independent butcher just off Sierra Highway in the "Big S" market. He also does butchering for local farmers.

There are a couple of other "real" butcher shops in the Antelope Valley - it is still a bit country here.

There is even a sausage maker in Littlerock (Valley Hungarian Sausage on Pearblossom Hiway at the east end of Littlerock (north side of the road).

However, I am sure there are independent butcher shops in many other places. You can probably find them in the yellow pages.

When I drive over the hill to Pasadena, or rather to Bristol Farms market in South Pasadena, I often stop at Montana Meat Market on Fair Oaks. (actually in Pasadena north of Colorado. I take Fair Oaks back up to the 210 freeway) There are also several great meat markets in Glendale - I don't recall the names but I can drive right to them. One is on Brand Blvd. another is on Glendale Blvd and a friend took me to one last spring that was on Foothill Blvd in either Verdugo City or La Crescenta.

[paulraphael]

Modern sauces are much better than the old ones, theres a reason no top restaurants use the old sauce repetoire anymore...

yeah, the reason is expense. most contemporary chefs have never even tasted a sauce made in the manner of escoffier or careme, so they're really in no position to judge them.

i happen to think that outside of world-class restaurants, what passes for glace is typically a shortcut on a shortcut on a shortcut, and is not even in the same league as the classics from which they devolved.

as far as escoffier's recipe goes, it's possible that it won't actually be what the o.p. is looking for. the high ratio of veal to chicken suggests that it's really just a slightly more chickeny variation on a neutral white stock. the huge quantities of meat and bones will add savor and general deliciousness, but i doubt the overall effect will be an intensity of chicken flavor.

if extreme chicken is what you're after, check out the thread on making stock in a sealed bag. i haven't tried it, but it looks like a promising idea.

[nibor]

here are two independent butcher shops in my area that will order stewing hens and I also buy guinea fowl at the Mexican supermarkets.  They will also get "soup chickens" for me if they have  a couple of days notice.

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Independent butcher shops? Whereabouts in S. California are you talking about andiesnji?

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I live in Lancaster. .....(followed by much useful info)

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Thanks!

[muichoi]

Modern sauces are much better than the old ones, theres a reason no top restaurants use the old sauce repetoire anymore...

yeah, the reason is expense. most contemporary chefs have never even tasted a sauce made in the manner of escoffier or careme, so they're really in no position to judge them.

i happen to think that outside of world-class restaurants, what passes for glace is typically a shortcut on a shortcut on a shortcut, and is not even in the same league as the classics from which they devolved.

as far as escoffier's recipe goes, it's possible that it won't actually be what the o.p. is looking for. the high ratio of veal to chicken suggests that it's really just a slightly more chickeny variation on a neutral white stock. the huge quantities of meat and bones will add savor and general deliciousness, but i doubt the overall effect will be an intensity of chicken flavor.

if extreme chicken is what you're after, check out the thread on making stock in a sealed bag. i haven't tried it, but it looks like a promising idea.

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Precisely-there's a man who knows what he's talking about.

[Mikeb19]

Modern sauces are much better than the old ones, theres a reason no top restaurants use the old sauce repetoire anymore...

yeah, the reason is expense. most contemporary chefs have never even tasted a sauce made in the manner of escoffier or careme, so they're really in no position to judge them.

i happen to think that outside of world-class restaurants, what passes for glace is typically a shortcut on a shortcut on a shortcut, and is not even in the same league as the classics from which they devolved.

as far as escoffier's recipe goes, it's possible that it won't actually be what the o.p. is looking for. the high ratio of veal to chicken suggests that it's really just a slightly more chickeny variation on a neutral white stock. the huge quantities of meat and bones will add savor and general deliciousness, but i doubt the overall effect will be an intensity of chicken flavor.

if extreme chicken is what you're after, check out the thread on making stock in a sealed bag. i haven't tried it, but it looks like a promising idea.

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Well, I'm not sure what passes for glace at most places, the chefs I worked under in fine dining were both world class... What we did was anything but cheap.

Anyhow, checking my Escoffier book, all he does for glace is reduce stock. Demi-glace is half espagnole sauce, half stock, reduced with sherry added.

When we make glace, we roast scraps from prime cuts of meat (as well as vegetables, aromatics, sometimes a piece of sugar), and wet it with stock. Let it cook, reduce, constantly topping it with more stock (rather than taking a large pot and simply reducing it, we'd wet it little by little, adding more hot stock as the sauce reduces). When we served the piece of meat, we'd toss shallots and aromats into the roasting pan, deglaze with liquor, then some glace, then we'd mount it with either fois gras, butter or creme fraiche.

We also made an oxtail jus sous-vide - we'd roast the oxtail with vegetables, then seal the oxtail and vegetables with aromats and veal stock in a sous-vide bag, then cook it at 80 degrees for 10 hours or so... Very little reduction required since you use alot less liquid to begin with.

Just curious, but have you ever worked in a professional kitchen, especially at a high level?

The fact is, the old sauces are outdated. Not because of cost, because new techniques are better. Even Escoffier himself in his book talks about how in the near future cooks will use pure starches instead of roux as thickening agents, producing a far superior product (hint - it's in the roux section). Clinging on to the old sauce repetoire is pointless.

[tim]

Hi,

Some years ago I made Espagnole sauce from scratch. My memory is that the flour that was added to the sauce was completely removed from the sauce during the reduction phase. It rose to the surface during the reduction and this brown frothy scum was skimmed. I assumed that the purpose of the flour was not thickening but for collecting impurities and carrying them to the surface.

I also remember the incredible mouth feel.

Tim

[paulraphael]

Mikeb, what you're describing does sound like an excellent approach (and I was specifically referring to what passes for glace at most non-world class restaurants, so it wasn't a dig at what you're doing).

When I hear someone talk about modern methods, I think of the most common ones: extreme reduction of stocks made from bones. These are the shortcuts on shortcuts; the ones that pale in comparison to classic methods.

What you're describing sounds almost like a return to pre-classic methods (coulis and double and triple stocks) which were abandoned for the classic methods on grounds of expense (when i talk about a shortcut on a shortcut on a shortcut, the first shortcut is actually the classical technique!)

I'd be curious to hear more about what chef's are doing today in very high budget kitchens.

[David Ross]

Thank you all! Excellent, excellent responses.

Some of you may not have followed my writings and postings-so just to give you a bit of info about me, I'm not a professional chef but I'd consider myself a good cook.

Most of my areas of concentration in the food world are skewed more toward teaching, writing and restaurant critiques. And while I started this topic for my own education on how Escoffier created a classic chicken-glace', I am really happy that the topic has grown into a larger discussion about the 'classic' methods as opposed to 'today's' methods for creating demi-glace' and glace.'

Thank you to the professionals who have chimed in on our topic. You've all given me many ideas-and many ideas for writing a piece about the methods of Escoffier updated for use in today's restaurant kitchens.

But let's keep the topic going-I'd like to continue to hear tips on creating a classic chicken glace using Escoffier's base recipe and secondly, how you are creating 'classic' demi-glace and glace style sauces in your professional kitchen. Finally, do you feel there is still a place in the professional kitchen for Escoffier's teachings on classic sauces? Is the cost and time involved in creating the classic Escoffier demi-glace take a backseat to the final sauce in terms of flavor? Does the classic really, truly, give you an intense flavor that you absolutely cannot achieve through any modern method?

[jackal10]

Escoffier is surprisingly straightforward and clear. These stocks were made with trimmings and leftovers, mostly. Boiling fowl (chickens) are old, tough cheap and flavoursome, for example ex-layers, and may sometimes be had from Chinese markets. Frozen are fine, otherwise just use ordinary chicken, or cheap bundles of wings and the like.

You just have to work backwards, since like most restaurant kitchens each dish depends on mise and stock preparations. Thus Poultry Glaze (Formula no.16) is reduced Poultry Base (Formula No 10) using the method for meat glaze (Formula no 15) My comments in <diamond brackets>

10 - White Veal Stock, and Poultry Stock

Quantities for making 4 quarts

8lb shin of veal, or lean or fresh veal trimmings

1 or 2 fowls carcasses, raw if they are handy <meaning you can use the carcass left from a roast>

12oz carrots

6oz onion stuck with a clove

5 1/2 quarts cold water

4 oz leeks strung with a stick of celery

1 <herb> faggot including 1oz parsley, 1 bay leaf and a small sprig of thyme

Preparation - Bone the shins, string the meat, break up the bones as small as possible, and put them <bones only> in a stewpan with the water. Place on an open fire <high heat>, allow to boil, skim carefully and then move to the side of the fire <low heat> to cook very gently for 5 hours. At the end of this time put the stock into another stewpan, add the meat and the vegetables, add water if necessary to keep the quantity of liquid at 5 quarts, let it boil, and allow to cook slowly for another 3 hours after which remove all grease from the stock , pass the latter through a fine strainer or colander and put aside until wanted.

Remarks upon white stock One should contrive to make this stock as gelatinous as possible. It is therefore an indispensable measure that the bones are broken up and cooked for at least 8 hours. Veal never yields such a clear stock as beef, nevertheless the consomme obtained from veal should not be turbid. It must, on the contrary be kept as clear and white as possible.

Poultry Stock is made by adding 2 old fowls to the above veal stock, and these should be put into the liquor with the meat,

<the meat from the stock was sometimes used or sold for meat pies and staff food>

15 - Meat Glaze

Meat glaze is made by reducing brown stock (Formula 7) in a large stewpan upon an open fire. As often as the stock is appreciably reduced, during ebullition <boiling>, it may be transferred to smaller stewpans, taking care to strain it through muslin at each change of stewpan. The glaze may be considered sufficiently reduced when it evenly veneers a withdrawn spoon. The fire used for reducing should gradually wane as the concentration progresses, and the last phase must be effected slowly and on a moderate fire.

When it is necessary to obtain a lighter and clearer glaze the brown veal stock (Formula No 9) should be reduced instead of the Estouffade.

16 - Poultry Glaze

Reduce the poultry base indicated in Formula 10, and proceed in exactly the same way as for meat glaze (Formula 15).

Edited September 25, 2007 by jackal10 (log)

[Mikeb19]

Mikeb, what you're describing does sound like an excellent approach (and I was specifically referring to what passes for glace at most non-world class restaurants, so it wasn't a dig at what you're doing).

When I hear someone talk about modern methods, I think of the most common ones: extreme reduction of stocks made from bones. These are the shortcuts on shortcuts; the ones that pale in comparison to classic methods.

What you're describing sounds almost like a return to pre-classic methods (coulis and double and triple stocks) which were abandoned for the classic methods on grounds of expense (when i talk about a shortcut on a shortcut on a shortcut, the first shortcut is actually the classical technique!)

I'd be curious to hear more about what chef's are doing today in very high budget kitchens.

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Yeah, to me, reduced stock is, reduced stock. I've given a few chefs a hard time about it.

When I do take a shortcut (usually at home) I'll proceed the same way I make a jus in a restaurant, but I wet the meat with water. Still works well, not quite as gelatinous, so I'll add a touch of potato starch.

Anyhow, yeah, there are alot of very old cooking techniques making their way back into cooking, (albeit with a modern touch) such as thickening sauces with bread (although rather than being there for the thickening power it's done for a certain flavour), cooking in wood fired ovens and on rotisseries, thickening sauces with blood or ground up innards (strained after of course), etc....

I've also seen plenty of chefs going back to more natural styles of cooking, and foregoing 'classical' cooking altogether, instead creating rustic, old style flavours based on the terroir with modern techniques. This includes the use of alot of 'forgotten' vegetables and herbs, lots of game, and foraged foods. Personally, I'm very interested in whats going on in German and Nordic cuisines nowadays.

[nibor]

Mikeb19, in talking about returning to older methods/styles of cooking you mentioned that you were interested in what was going on in Germany. What might that be?

[paulraphael]

Mikeb19, if you don't mind, i have a few questions about the methods you describe.

roughly what quantities would go into making a quart of the final glace (for both stock and meat scraps)?

were your chefs partial to any particular kind of stock (a meat-rich stock or a gelatinous bone-based one)?

did you use any roasted bones in with the scraps?

did put use any aromatic veggies or garni in the glace at any point, or were those all reserved for the final preparation of the dish?

was the procedure based more on a particular amount of time of simmering (adding however much stock was needed to make up for evaporation) or was it based on however much time was required to consume a certain amount of stock?

and finally, do you know if anyone has written much about methods like these? i remember seeing something about this here on egullet (maybe from you) and they seem like a natural outgrowth of some of the older techniques peterson discusses, but i haven't yet seen anything exactly like what you describe in print.

[Mikeb19]

Mikeb19, if you don't mind, i have a few questions about the methods you describe.

roughly what quantities would go into making a quart of the final glace (for both stock and meat scraps)?

were your chefs partial to any particular kind of stock (a meat-rich stock or a gelatinous bone-based one)?

did you use any roasted bones in with the scraps?

did put use any aromatic veggies or garni in the glace at any point, or were those all reserved for the final preparation of the dish?

was the procedure based more on a particular amount of time of simmering (adding however much stock was needed to make up for evaporation) or was it based on however much time was required to consume a certain amount of stock?

and finally, do you know if anyone has written much about methods like these? i remember seeing something about this here on egullet (maybe from you) and they seem like a natural outgrowth of some of the older techniques peterson discusses, but i haven't yet seen anything exactly like what you describe in print.

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Anyhow, for the stock we'd use roasted veal knuckles, some carrot, celery ROOT (we never used celery stalks for any stocks or sauces), and onions, as well as thyme and bay leaf. We'd let our brown stock go for about 8 hours. We'd do a case of veal knuckles (50 pounds) which would give us about 35 litres of stock.

For the jus, it depended alot on how many scrappings we had on hand at the time, we'd take the chain from the tenderloin for this, as well as all the scraps from butchering (cleaned of fat of course) - no bones at this stage. We did other meat glaces too (lamb mostly - for the chicken we'd use the cooking juices from the sous-vide bag). For the yields, it's hard to say, but probably 10 pounds of scrap required 10 litres of stock in total, and produced maybe a litre or two of glace. This is going from memory, could be off a little (that was a year and a half ago, since then I've been a full-time pastry chef).

Anyhow, the ingredients in the glace were beef tenderloin, carrot, celery root, onion (all roasted in brown butter in a pan - although for the amounts we were doing it would take many pans...), a little honey or a piece of sugar, bay leaf, thyme - we deglazed with water - no alcohol was added since we'd do that a la minute, that way we could also control and modify the final product if we wanted to (different alcohols and flavour profiles for a la carte, tastings, special tables, etc...). The time factor was based on how long it took the sauce to aquire the flavour and reduce to the proper consistency - at first we just added the whole amount of stock then reduced, a year later we changed our method - we'd add the stock little by little, topping it up as it reduced. Total time, 4-6 hours.

Our method was quite similar to Alain Ducasse's method, which is the method I think was discussed on the board a while back. If some of my amounts and times are off a little I apologize, it was awhile back, since then I've been doing more or less exclusively pastries.

[Mikeb19]

Mikeb19, in talking about returning to older methods/styles of cooking you mentioned that you were interested in what was going on in Germany. What might that be?

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I was thinking mostly of the 'New Nordic Cuisine' as well as what chefs like Marc Veyrat or Michel Bras are doing when I wrote it , but I'm also quite interested in modern German cuisine (and unfortunately am just starting to learn about the 'New German Cuisine'). The trend in many parts of europe is now to create a new cuisine based on the terroir of the surrounding land, creating more 'natural' flavours - the flavour of the land itself. Many chefs are also going back to their own roots or the roots of the land for inspiration, foraging for herbs and vegetables in their own backyards. The end result is, rather than 'classic' dishes, creating dishes with flavours that go back in time, are more 'pure', yet are very modern at the same time. When I write sometimes I think one thing and write another, sorry if I caused much confusion.

[paulraphael]

Thanks Mike, that's all really interesting.

I'll take a look at Ducasse's method also.

It seems to me that your approach actually shares some fundamental qualities with Escoffier's.

He also starts with a bone-based stock. Then he makes a sauce espagnole by creating a meat stock by cooking roasted meat in the bone stock, reducing, simmering with mirrepoix (and usually adding tomato) and thickening slightly with roux.

Then the espagnole is reduced at a low simmer, with its volume being compensated by adding fresh stock at several intervals.

The biggest structural differences seem to be the roux, tomatoes, and other details specific to the sauce espagnole. Does this sound accurate to you?

With the chicken you mention just using the juices from the sous vide bag. Does this strike you as similar to what's being suggested in the other thread on chicken stock? It seems like a great idea if you're going for an intensity of flavor, which I'm more likely after with beef jus/glace than with chicken stock. Have you ever tried the sous vide approach with beef?

[Mikeb19]

With the chicken you mention just using the juices from the sous vide bag. Does this strike you as similar to what's being suggested in the other thread on chicken stock? It seems like a great idea if you're going for an intensity of flavor, which I'm more likely after with beef jus/glace than with chicken stock. Have you ever tried the sous vide approach with beef?

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Yeah, the method in the other thread for chicken stock is similar to what we were doing, instead of making stock though, we were adding a little to the bag to add flavour to the chicken, and then using it for the jus afterwards (just a quick reduction, a little butter, and it was good to go).

Haven't tried cooking steaks sous-vide (that's not what you're asking, is it?) - the cuts we were getting at the restaurant were so well marbled and so tender, that they really wouldn't have benefitted much from being cooked sous-vide (as opposed to say pork or chicken, which definitely are better sous-vide).

For sauces though, we did an oxtail jus sous-vide (I mentioned it upthread, but never in much detail), so here goes.

It's really simple. We roasted the oxtail in a pan in some brown butter, then roasted the vegetables (carrot, celery root, onion). Let it cool down slightly, and put everything in the sous-vide bag. Add some aromatics (bay leaf, thyme), add veal stock to the bag, and seal. Cook at 80 degrees Celcius for 10 hours or so, strain the contents, and you have your jus. When you're ready to serve, saute some shallots, deglaze your pan with alcohol, then with the jus, mount with fat, and there you go. Honestly, this is probably my favourite way to do sauces. It's nice and simple, doesn't require much, if any reduction, all it requires is a sous-vide bag, water bath, and lots of time (or just good time planning - which I don't have when I'm at home).

Vegetable purees also turn out very nice sous-vide. Put vegetables in bag with stock, milk, butter, whatever you want - cook for a few hours at 80 degrees (until they're very tender), remove from bag and puree. Flavour is definitely more intense than cooking in a sauce pot.

Oh yeah, forgot to mention that we did add some tomato to our veal stock. Not much though, maybe 10 small-ish fresh tomatoes for a whole batch. We didn't want our sauces tasting like tomato at all though, just added for their natural glutamate content

Anyhow, I did once (briefly) work at a restaurant that made Escoffier's traditional sauces pretty religiously. They weren't terrible (they were good, not great), but certainly not as good as the sauces we were doing at the more modern places. I'll take a simple pan sauce, jus, glace, etc..., anyday over the old sauces.

[paulraphael]

very interesting. it must be delicious. i wasn't actually asking about cooking steaks sous vide; i was wondering if you did anything just like what you described (making jus with the sous vide method).

i don't have a real sous vide setup; i'd like to investigate the possibility of doing something like this with less specialized gear.

i'm still curious about quantities. about how much meat and stock would you use to produce a quart of jus with this method?

Edited September 27, 2007 by paulraphael (log)

[Shalmanese]

To me, the veal bones and chicken feet and calves heads and whatever else escoffier uses are purely a product of his time and have no real place in modern stock making. They were put in there to contribute gelatine to the stock and little else and the gelatine was mainly there as a cost reduction procedure. The more gelatine you have, the less you need to reduce before it reaches nappe which means the less actual flavourful ingredients you need.

Thing is, nowadays, you can just buy gelatine, for pennies. So stop worrying about the damn veal bones, focus on stuff that actually has flavour like stewing hens and oxtail and short ribs and other meaty cuts. Add in the requisite gelatine at the end of the process to get the mouthfeel you want.