Stock for soups

[Suvir Saran]

How would you prepare stocks for soups.

A friend said to me that they have two recipes. One for a Chinese style stock and the other for Non-Chinese recipes.

Is that what the norm is?

Anyone have recipes that I should try??

What makes a good stock good?

Should one worry about making a perfectly clear stock?

[SobaAddict70]

Chinese chicken stock is basically chicken stock that's been made without the traditional aromatics (celery, carrot, onion, bay leaf, peppercorns, bouquet garni); garlic, ginger and scallions are used instead, along with chicken backs, necks, and of course the chicken itself. (skin on, to get that nice golden color)

Otherwise its the same as any other stock. I'm sure others will post.

SA

[Suzanne F]

I'll take a shot at your questions:

If I wanted to make a truly authentic Chinese soup, yes, I would probably go to Chinatown for a black chicken, Chinese celery and herbs -- whatever the recipe called for. And were I to attempt a classic (i.e., French) stock as I learned in school and at work, I'd really try to do it that way.

But my style of home cooking is, well, mongrelization. I tend to make my stocks with whatever scraps I've saved in the freezer (raw or cooked) plus additional fresh ingredients. I suspect I'm close to the norm among most home cooks who make stocks at all, although probably not among those here. In any case, I use whatever stock seems most suitable to the finished soup.

To me, a good stock tastes first and foremost of its titular ingredient. Not of the aromatics, not of salt. Other flavors should be discernible, but as background notes to the main one.

I am usually too lazy to make beautifully clear stocks. Or, rather, I don't want to give the stock all the attention it deserves as it cooks in order to be clear. No frequent skimming, no rafts (but then, I try not to make it worse by boiling, either). I belong to the "cook it - strain it - chill it - degrease it and scrape off the nasty stuff" school. This does not give you anything close to consommé, but I don't really need to bother with that AT HOME.

[CooksQuest]

I love chicken backs. There is a better bone/fat ratio than other parts, a wonderfully intense flavor, and is *super* cheap. A 10 lb. bag costs about $1.15.

I generally don't use meat for my stocks.

(I think the CIA book talks about stocks=bone, broth=meat, but that may be for another thread).

I'm curious as to whether people roast their chicken bones first, or just brown them in the stock pot. I prefer the latter (saving my roasting for my veal demi...)

[Fat Guy]

My basic stockmaking strategy is to make a whole ton of it every six months or so -- more often if I happen to do a lot of entertaining in a given time period. But what I do is buy several whole chickens when they go on sale for less than 99 cents a pound (which is often enough at the supermarkets I frequent) and I make a stock with those chickens plus onions, carrots and celery. No herbs, spices, or salt. No roasting. When the chickens have cooked through to a poached-chicken level of doneness, I pull them out of the stock and remove the breast meat and whatever other nice big pieces of meat I can salvage, which still leaves about half the meat on the chickens. Then I put them back into the stock to finish, and I eat chicken salad, chicken sandwiches, etc., for a few days. I cook my stock for a really long time, like three times as long as the cookbooks recommend, because I like maximum extraction. I often start it before bed, do the skimming thing for the first hour or so, and then put it on a low simmer overnight. I check on it once in the middle of the night and shut it off in the morning. Then I let it cool a bit, strain it, refrigerate it, skim the fat the next day, and put the stock back on the stovetop to reduce for a couple of hours. That makes it very efficient in terms of freezer space.

I usually do a veal stock at the same time, with veal neck bones or whatever I can find cheap. I don't roast those either -- I just add a couple of tablespoons of tomato paste for color, and I don't notice a loss of flavor.

And I agree with Suzanne: Just about any means of making stock at home is going to work well enough.

[GordonCooks]

Personally, I Aisan-ize my normal chicken stock by adding:

Add fresh ginger

scallions

star anise

sometimes Lemongrass

[Suvir Saran]

Personally, I Aisan-ize my normal chicken stock by adding:

Add fresh ginger

scallions

star anise

sometimes Lemongrass

That is what our friend Ed Schoenfeld does. I did not see him add Star Anise though.

[Suvir Saran]

Does anyone add egg shells any more?

Is it really worth the effort to make a stock that clear?

I know Ed makes his Chinese stock quiet clear... but certainly not by adding too many extra steps like egg shells... he says the key to a good Chinest Sweet Corn Soup is a clear stock...

That is what got me thinking...

He left the stock simmering overnight... Is that common???

[GordonCooks]

Personally, I Aisan-ize my normal chicken stock by adding:

Add fresh ginger

scallions

star anise

sometimes Lemongrass

That is what our friend Ed Schoenfeld does. I did not see him add Star Anise though.

I only use 1-2 whole for maybe 6-8 qts - it adds a certain subtleness. I add it to the bouquet de garni. Try it, you'll like it. For my Top Secret Pho Stock - I add star anise, a cinnamon stick, and a dried husk of vanilla bean from my sugar jar (a fresh one is a little strong)

[Lyle]

Egg shells, eh?

What's the reasoning behind this? The science; how does it work?

When sould one add the shells if so inclined?

[SobaAddict70]

Egg shells, eh?

What's the reasoning behind this?  The science; how does it work?

When sould one add the shells if so inclined?

A basic Google search for clarifying stock can be found here.

As for the science, well, I'll let Steve Klc or other more expert hands touch that one.

SA

[Suzanne F]

Egg shells (or more usually egg whites) are part of the "clearmeat" that one adds to the chilled stock along with ground meat, mirepoix, and acid (tomato, wine, etc.) to form the "raft" that clarifies the consommé. After you de-fat the chilled, reduced stock, you mix the clearmeat ingredients together, and beat them into the jellyish stock. When you then simmer it partway over the burner, the clearmeat comes together on top as a raft and picks up the impurities from the circulating liquid. It think it's the principle of "like attracting like" -- in this case, the proteins in the meat and egg attract and hold the little tiny sludgy bits. The mirepoix and acid are mostly for flavor.

The whole process of making crystal-clear liquid is long and involved. First you make your stock, skimming all the way; strain it; chill it; de-fat it; reduce it; strain it again; chill it again; (de-fat again if necessary); add the clearmeat and simmer it until it's clear. A lot of work for a cup of clear liquid. Not done much anymore. But then, if you do it right, there's almost nothing as astonishing, especially to modern diners. (Perhaps because, as Joe Baum is reputed to have said, "There's always something wrong with the consommé."

[Lyle]

Well that just about explains it. I have always wanted more and more clear stocks but never put in that much effort. Doubt if I ever will.

I do, however, use the Shaw - whole chicken meathod- I actually lifted from my mother. It does truley make the best chicken salad I've ever had.

[Suvir Saran]

Egg shells (or more usually egg whites) are part of the "clearmeat" that one adds to the chilled stock along with ground meat, mirepoix, and acid (tomato, wine, etc.) to form the "raft" that clarifies the consommé.  After you de-fat the chilled, reduced stock, you mix the clearmeat ingredients together, and beat them into the jellyish stock.  When you then simmer it partway over the burner, the clearmeat comes together on top as a raft and picks up the impurities from the circulating liquid.  It think it's the principle of "like attracting like" -- in this case, the proteins in the meat and egg attract and hold the little tiny sludgy bits.  The mirepoix and acid are mostly for flavor.

The whole process of making crystal-clear liquid is long and involved.  First you make your stock, skimming all the way; strain it; chill it; de-fat it; reduce it; strain it again; chill it again; (de-fat again if necessary); add the clearmeat and simmer it until it's clear.  A lot of work for a cup of clear liquid.  Not done much anymore.  But then, if you do it right, there's almost nothing as astonishing, especially to modern diners.  (Perhaps because, as Joe Baum is reputed to have said, "There's  always something wrong with the consommé."

Thanks Suzanne F!

So how many professional chefs and their staff actually would still use this "raft" method? Just wondering.

[polly]

So how many professional chefs and their staff actually would still use this "raft" method?  Just wondering. 

It's a method that's still used quite often in restaurants where that amount of time can be spent on the food.

Consomme its self does not appear on menus that much these days, but all professional chefs should have no problem clarifying a stock with a raft, or making consomme.

You can make lovely clear stock just by taking care of it and never lettting it come to the boil.

Simmer, simmer, very gently, so that the impurities coagulate without being boiled into the stock, skim all fat and foam from the top and ladle or gently pour the stock into a container, discarding the last of the stock which will have a flotilla of bits in it.

[Fat Guy]

At Gramercy Tavern there is from time to time a partridge dish served in consomme, and at Bid I recall consomme as a component in a beef dish. In fact when the restaurant closed I was able to beg a few servings of consomme and I still have them in my freezer.

A related stock thread:

http://forums.egullet.org/ibf/index.php?s=...=10148&hl=stock

Also for those of you who live in the relevant geographic area, ShopRite is selling whole Tyson chickens for 59 cents a pound (less than half price) this week. These are not fabulous chickens but they're ideal for the stock-and-sandwich process described above. I may buy myself a few as my stock supply is running low.

[ngatti]

So how many professional chefs and their staff actually would still use this "raft" method?  Just wondering. 

It's de rigeur for consomme. It really isn't that much work. I like to throw the eggshells in. The albumen gives the consomme a nice edge. I also grind a bunch of chicken bones (duck, bird, whatever) through the course holes of meat grinder. I put the veggies in too, but leave the parsley and thyme whole to help pick up the 'raft'.

I like suzzane's method of staring with jellied stock. I have used room temp stock and on occasion have had to clarify the stock twice. Her method sounds superior and I'm going to use it the next time I make consomme.

I had duck consomme with foie gras dumplings at Jardiniere once. Seminal, IMO.

Nick

[Peter B Wolf]

Adding fresh Chicken feet, well scrubbed and smashed / "malleted?", will provide some nice coloring, and yes, it does provide more intense flavor.

[Suzanne F]

Feet also provide more collagen, which gives a lovely rich mouthfeel and makes the stock jelly very well. My mother always put feet in her chicken soup, and I now get them in Chinatown when I want a really strong broth. Just strain out the toenails VERY carefully.

[Fat Guy]

Ouch.

[Bux]

As Shaw does, I also want the maximum extraction from the chicken bones and meat. I think it's because I am basically cheap, I mean thrifty. I also find that the longer I simmer the stock with the bones, the less likely I am to get a good clear golden broth or stock. It may just be due to the fact that the longer it cooks, the greater the chances are that it will boil at some point, but I think the longer extraction has something to do with it. I seem to recall reading that after a certain period, you're not geting anything valuable out of the carcasses and that's probably when the liquid starts getting rather grey. Nevertheless, I find I can get back that clear golden color by clarifying the stock with egg whites. I've never used the shells, but will try that someday. I am not so careful about getting a beautiful clear consomme most of the time, but I want the more appetizing color. I learned how to clarify stock from Julia Child's first book. She just uses egg whites and parsley and maybe some ground lean meat (to match the stock). I also seem to recall her advice that the liquid must be completely free of fat in order to clarify it properly.

[Fat Guy]

Yeah, I like to go just up until the point at which grayness becomes a potential issue. I'm also blessed with a DCS range that has concentric-ring burners with a very reliable, very low simmer setting that only utilizes the inner ring.

I picked up some of those Shop-Rite chickens today. They actually look pretty nice. The package says "all natural" whatever that means. From the Web site: "Tyson® chicken is all natural. It contains no artificial preservatives or ingredients, and it's minimally processed." Whatever. I assume these chickens are factory farmed under unthinkable conditions, but at 59 cents a pound for nice 4-5 pounders all I can say is wow.

I've watched the stockmaking process in a few restaurants, and the most indelible memory is the way Christian Delouvrier makes his at Lespinasse. He fills a commercial freestanding stockpot (I don't know how big these are, maybe a million gallons) with whole chickens. And not the crap chickens I buy; these are like really good D'Artagnan chickens. There are also a bunch of aromatics in there. Then, when all the stuff has been extracted from the chickens, they get pulled out and a whole second set of brand new chickens goes in. This produces the richest, bestest stock I've ever tasted. And people wonder why the place is expensive!

[Suzanne F]

Wow, that's the fanciest remoullage I ever heard of! That must be great! (Usually "remoullage" means adding new water to the already-cooked bones, to make a second, thinner stock. You combine that with the first one and reduce the whole.)

FG: when you say "commercial freestanding stockpot" I assume you mean a steam-jacket kettle. It works sort of like a giant crockpot: double-walled, with the steam surrounding the inside cooking pot. It's incredible how fast those things can bring a full pot of liquid to the boil. And yeah, they can be BIG -- I think 50 gallons might be the largest? To give others an idea of the size: on the last work-night of a particularly hated waiter, we filled one with water and ice and dropped him in. And that wasn't even the largest available kettle!

[Fat Guy]

Yes, I believe upon further investigation that the device in question is the Vulcan model GL80E Kettle, Gas, Stationary, Floor Model, 80 Gallon:

I want one.

We actually had a situation in Canada where we were taping a segment at a restaurant and the cameraman climbed into the kettle with all his equipment in order to get a shot of me and the chef peering in.

What's a "double stock"? Is that the correct description of what Delouvrier does?

[mamster]

I think Delouvrier is probably making a double stock. As I've heard the term used, a double stock is simply stock made with stock rather than water. If that makes sense. I've also heard of triple stock. At some point you've got to wonder whether it wouldn't just make more sense to reduce it and make some more stock tomorrow.