Knife Steels

[Shalmanese]

So I just got my new Gyuto and I'm in the market for a steel to keep it honed. One thing that's always puzzled me is if I'm after a stock standard, non-diamond steel, what exactly separates the expensive steels from the budget ones. I've seen steels that cost $70 and steels that come included with a set of $20 knives. As far as I can tell, a steel is just a long rod of metal and I don't see how the expensive ones sharpen your knife better. I can understand paying big bucks for a steel with diamonds in it but that's not what I'm after. One thing I have heard anecdotally is to avoid the ridged steels but again, no reason was given why.

Any thoughts?

[slkinsey]

No, there is no point whatsoever to paying big bucks for a steel. Especially when you can go to HandAmerican and pick up the S-14GS 14-inch Glass Smooth Steel for 35 bucks (use this for steeling) and the C-14 14-inch Steatite Rod for 25 bucks (use this extra-fine grit ceramic steel for steeling with very light sharpening).

What you do not want are the grooved or nubbled steels that come with most knife sets. These will damage your knives more than helping them.

[Octaveman]

Sam's post is right on all accounts. The glass smooth steel is a must. Use it lightly as not much pressure is needed. With a gyuto, I would recommend against using any kind of rod for "sharpening" except the C-14 he mentioned. I haven't tried it but I'd be mildly concerned that my edge would get a bit "toothy" after using it. That's not necessarily a bad thing as you can either have a smooth edge or a finely toothed edge. Just cuts differently.

BTW, what gyuto did you get?

[sanrensho]

With a gyuto, I would recommend against using any kind of rod for "sharpening" except the C-14 he mentioned.

Octaveman, I am correct in interpreting this to mean that the C-14 might be acceptable for a Japanese knife. My (non-expert) understanding is that stones are traditionally the way to go for a Japanese knife, and barely more work than a steel.

Edited March 15, 2007 by sanrensho (log)

[slkinsey]

I don't want to speak for Octaveman, but... extra-fine ceramic steels like this aren't recommended for what I'd call true sharpening. For that, you'd like to have a stone. Rather, they combine the effect of traditional steeling (straightening the edge) with a small amount of "polish sharpening" to remove any tiny weak parts of the edge. Once the knife really needs to be sharpened, you wouldn't want to do that with a ceramic steel.

[sanrensho]

I don't want to speak for Octaveman, but... extra-fine ceramic steels like this aren't recommended for what I'd call true sharpening.  For that, you'd like to have a stone.  Rather, they combine the effect of traditional steeling (straightening the edge) with a small amount of "polish sharpening" to remove any tiny weak parts of the edge.  Once the knife really needs to be sharpened, you wouldn't want to do that with a ceramic steel.

Thanks for your comments. I understand the distinction and their respective purposes, but I always thought that steels were traditionally not a part of maintaining Japanese knives, going directly to the stone instead.

I'm certainly open to picking up a fine ceramic steel if it will be useful as a quick touch-up for my Japanese knives before each cutting session.

Edited March 15, 2007 by sanrensho (log)

[slkinsey]

Ah. I can't comment on what is traditional for Japanese knives, although of course "traditional" and "best" or "reasonably good for home use" are not the same thing. I suppose it all depends on how much time you have to devote to handworking your gyuto on a stone. As to whether steeling is even something that would be good or appropriate for a single bevel edge is harder to say, and I don't know enough about it to offer an opinion.

[Octaveman]

Sanrensho, a steel is NOT to traditionally used for Japanese knives and it should NOT be used with Traditional Japanese knives (single beveled knives). A steel can be used to hone Japanese double-beveled western styled knives such as a gyuto. It should be done with a light tough as the bevel angles are small and the edges very sharp. The angle you move the knife down the steel should not be any higher than what is already on there...IOW, not so obtuse to the steel that you fold your edge back and forth.

I said above I have a glass smooth Handamerican steel that I will infrequently use in a pinch but I prefer go to my higher grit stones to do a better job...aligning the edge and to remove the weak spots Sam mentioned may exist. I do this because I sharpen my own knives and have a battery of stones to accomplish this. IMHO, the ceramic steel should not be used as a substitute for stones if you're already doing your own sharpening. If you have standard stones that need soaking I can see how regular honing would overall be time consuming. If you have stones that don't need soaking (Shapton Pro/Glass) then it would only take a few minutes to set up and take a few swipes to get your edge back. Most chef's I know keep their stone out all during their shift so they don't have to worry about setting up.

Sam is correct that these extra fine ceramic steels shouldn't be used to replace regular sharpening. Again, I would have my reservations about them but I've heard the same thing from others too. Just never tried it so I can't really give a any opinion. These too should be used with a light touch. Matter of fact, when I bought my steel from HA, they gave me a grooved rest to lay the steel down on the table with and I was told to just use the weight of the knife to hone it. I have the leather hone that HA sells and use it charged with Chromium Oxide as a final step when I get in those modes where I want my knife to be uber sharp. Only the weight of the knife is used for this.

Hope this clarifies things a bit.

Bob

Edited March 16, 2007 by Octaveman (log)

[sanrensho]

Hope this clarifies things a bit.

Bob

←

As usual, thanks Bob.

I like the control I get with my stones (particularly blade angle), so I think I'll stick with them for now.

The sharpening angles shown on, for example, the Japanese Chefs Knife site are much shallower than even I expected.

[Shalmanese]

Sanrensho, a steel is NOT to traditionally used for Japanese knives and it should NOT be used with Traditional Japanese knives (single beveled knives).  A steel can be used to hone Japanese double-beveled western styled knives such as a gyuto.  It should be done with a light tough as the bevel angles are small and the edges very sharp.  The angle you move the knife down the steel should not be any higher than what is already on there...IOW, not so obtuse to the steel that you fold your edge back and forth.

←

What is it about japanese knives that doesn't make them require steeling? As far as I know, steeling is not to sharpen a knife and not meant to be a replacement for it. Instead, it's to uncurl the bent edge that arises from chopping. Why would a japanese knife be any different in this regard.

I guess while I'm at it, does anyone know any good sources for sharpening stones? Theres a place in the city but the stones are around $50 which is again, IMHO, too much to pay for a stone.

edit: I got a 210mm Ryusen Gyuto.

Edited March 16, 2007 by Shalmanese (log)

[slkinsey]

Again, Octaveman can undoubtedly speak with more authority on this, but... I think the reason steeling may not be useful for traditional Japanese knives is that they are tradidionally only sharpened on one side. Here's a graphic from the eCGI class on knife sharpening:

The "chisel edge" is the edge used on most traditional Japanese knives, whereas the "V-edge" is the edge used on most Western knives. Since the practice of steeling is to align the edge back towards center, it's possible that steeling a chisel edge where the point of the edge is not in the center and the two angles are not symmetrical, wouldn't work and might even be detrimental.

That said, I am given to understand that the gyuto is a "Western style" knife with a V-edge. Therefore, I'd think it should be okay to steel it -- especially using a smooth steel, a very acute angle and light pressure.

[sanrensho]

My layman's take is that Japanese chefs are simply accustomed to sharpening with stones, so they tend to skip the steeling and go straight to stone. Hence, culturally, there is a general emphasis on sharpening with stones as opposed to steeling + stones.

Edited March 16, 2007 by sanrensho (log)

[Octaveman]

You guys beat me to it.....

Sanrensho, using two pennies is a standard guide that would fit most gyuto's. There are some gyuto's that can handle a smaller angle...like one penny. Takeda, for example, have very thin blades and you almost have to lay it flat on the stone to sharpen at the same angle Takeda made the knife at. It gets scary sharp and you have to beleive it when I say it cuts through things feeling like I just cut through warm butter. Korin's sharpening DVD uses the two penny/three penny guide too. It's a good guide, but it doesn't always fit for every knife. You can change your bevels to whatever you want...even the penny guide.

Shalmanese, don't get confused by the term "Japanese knives" as there are traditional single bevel and western style double beveled knives. You do not steel traditional knives...never have, never should. Western style Japanese knives though require "honing" just like Euro knives. They just last longer between those times that it's needed than non-Japanese knives. You can hone your knives either with a steel or a high grit stone. You are correct in your understanding of what steeling does which is very important as many, and I mean MANY, people think it's to sharpen them. We can all thank manufacturers and misleading advertising for that.

Oooh boy, regarding stones. Let me say this first. You wouldn't buy a mercedez then take it to the corner gas station for your repairs would you? Would you?? Then why buy a real nice knife and go cheap on the very tools to keep it like new? Stones are an investment as they will last you a long time. Even the lesser expensive ones because you won't be sharpening a whole bunch of knives every single week. The choice of stone is very important as not all stones are alike. Is Epicurean Edge the store in seattle your referring to? They have a wide selection of stones to choose from but they don't carry what I feel is a good selection of combination stones. These stones are double sided with two different grits. There are a basic set of stones I feel are required and the grits are 1k, 4k and 8k. At some point you may need to add a very coarse stone to make repairing chips easy but you can cross that bridge when you get to it.

Basically, get a single 1k stone and a combo 4k/8k stone. This is what I call the core set of stones. The 1k stone will wear down faster so by getting a single 1k stone versus getting it in a combo stone you will not have the 1k side wear down faster than the other side. Plus it's thicker so it will last longer. The same resoning applies to the 4k/8k combo. These stones will wear very slowly so it's okay to get thinner ones to save so money. To give you an idea on how long they'll last...I've had my core set now for over two years and I probably have about 98% of the original stone left on the less wear-resistant lower grit stones. They will last a long time so investing the money to get quality stones is very important. Also, cheap quality stones will have inconsistant particle sizes in their stones. This would make for a bad sharpening experience.

The brand I recommend beginners on a budget is Norton. For people with a higher budget, Shapton Pro is the way to go. HERE is a good place to get them. You will also need to buy one more thing: a stone flattener. It is imperative your stones are flat or you will get irregular bevels and it would be near to impossible to get a decent edge. You could get away without using the stone holder and use the plastic cases the stones come in if they do come with them (not 100% sure). They are designed for this too so that would save some cash. I've ordered from this place and they are good to work with.

Being new to sharpening I would also highly recommend Korin's dvd. It's one thing to read how to sharpen and another to see it in action. There is a lot of talk about angles and it can take on different meanings if it's not made 100% clear in the text. I did a lot of How-To reading before I got started and spent a lot time asking questions after reading what people wrote. The video made thiings more clear.

Cheers,

Bob

edited to add: Ryusen Blazen or Ryusen Damascus?

edited again. Not sure why my fingers can't type vowels.

Edited March 16, 2007 by Octaveman (log)

[russ parsons]

i'm doing a piece on learning to sharpen right now. it's actually turning out to be about the edge pro,which really is an amazing set of training wheels. i'm working on hand-sharpening, too, but that is a process that takes a while to master (you can pretty much begin to master the edgepro within a half-hour or so).

if you really want to hand-sharpen, i also recommend the norton stones. i bought a combination 1000/4000 and am pleased with it (hand-sharpening is like making your own bread ... i'm not sure it's worth the effort over edgepro, but it is pleasing work).

i also second octaveman's recommendation of the korin video. that is really a great lesson. i also picked up murray carter's video. there's great stuff in it, but it is absolutely deadly to watch (picture an earnest canadian speaking off the top of his head for three hours).

[paulraphael]

Could you give an idea of how much the basic sharpening kit (2 or 3 stones, or whatever you're recommending, plus stone flattener) costs?

I haven't looked into it, but my casual glances at pricetags make it look like these tools could cost more than any knife I decide to get!

[Octaveman]

The Norton set I mentioned above would be $110 for the stones and $25 for the flattener. Being a one time cost, it will keep you covered for a long time. It may cost more than the knife you get but I think it would be safe to say that's not your only knife and wouldn't be your only knife now and forever.

The edge Pro or stones are an investment like your knife(knives). If you're going to make the change from mediocre knives to quality knives it only makes sense to do what you can to keep them at their best, right? At least with the medicore knives you can keep them sharp on your own without the time and expense of taking to the local sharpening hack, ahem, I mean knife store to sharpen your knives every month. At $10 a knife every month that will cover the cost of the stones real quick.

Russ, good to see ya here. I've heard a lot of good things about the edge pro. The only bad thing I've heard (because I've never used one) is that if you want to sharpen your knives to a very acute angle, the sides of the blade could easily get scratched. Other than that, I've heard it's a great tool. Maybe consider that instead of stones. I personally find joy in using stones as it's just me and the stone. It's definately more of a learned skill than through using the Edge Pro. Although it really doesn't take that long to learn. It just takes desire to learn a new skill and some practice like any new skill would.

Edited March 16, 2007 by Octaveman (log)

[russ parsons]

i think the edgepro ($185 for the whole kit--three stones, polishing tapes, etc) probably will only go safely to 15 degrees. so there is a reason to hand sharpen!

the norton combination waterstone was about $50. you can lay it on a damp towel and you don't need the rack.

[DerekW]

At the risk of laying myself open to accusations of topic drift, and with the caveat of my definite "non-expert" status...

I'd recommend anyone interested in mechanical sharpening to take a good look at the narrow-belt linishing machines, such as the one sold by Lee Valley.

Purchased partly to do wood shop sanding, mine has become the 'go-to' tool of choice for sharpening everything from axes through to my Watanabe gyuto and santoku. In essence, it presents a moving surface, allowing you to concentrate on the blade contact angle instead of needing to maintain that angle while stroking the blade along the stone. You retain full manual control of the angle - it's not a preset guide system.

For knife sharpening, a new 15 micron belt does the coarse sharpening and an old one does the fine work. A leather belt charged with chromium does the 'silly sharp' polishing.

Friends and family get me to sharpen and repair their knives now - With a coarse 'grinding' belt I've completely reshaped horribly broken, scarred and abused blades, then gone on to edge the restored shapes at angles compatible with the blade metal. 15 minutes from scrap to restored. If you knew me, you would realise that this is not a testament to my superior skill, but rather an indication of the utility offered by the tool. As with any mechanical sharpener, the linisher requires that you take care not to overheat the blade steel. With a light touch, it is easy to sharpen a dull blade in one or two passes across the belt. Changing a belt takes seconds. I'm in danger of sounding like a snake-oil salesman, so I'd better leave off.

To return closer to topic, the day to day touch up for both my Japanese blades is a wood backed leather strop, chrome charged. Wash, dry, wipe, wipe.

[nduran]

Are the flattening/fixing stones meant to be used wet or dry?

[SG-]

While not recommended by the pros I find that a quick run through my handamerican smooth steels does a quick job of restoring the edges of my japanese gyutous and chinese cleavers.

[Octaveman]

wet

[Ms. Agrodolce]

Bob, you said a good place to get the Shapton Pro "HERE"...but it only sold Norton (maybe I misread it). Where's a good place to get the Shapton? Vaughan

[Octaveman]

Sorry for it being a little misleading. Norton is what should be in the link. Below is the link for Shaptons that are a bit cheaper than the other places.

Shapton Pro

[Dave the Cook]

A couple of questions for the group:

- Is Sam correct that the V-edge is most common for western knives? I thought that the double bevel was used more often, since though it's less sharp than the V, it maintains a given level of sharpness longer.

- Can someone explain why ridged steels are deleterious to the knife? And if they are, why do Henckels and Wusthof, among many others, include them in their sets?

[Kent Wang]

- Can someone explain why ridged steels are deleterious to the knife? And if they are, why do Henckels and Wusthof, among many others, include them in their sets?

←

Yes, I am curious about this matter as well. I do notice my knife being more effective after steeling on a ridged steel.