Carrot Top

This is a good question. Is it that there are simply not enough women out there in charge of kitchens that aim for this in the first place...so that affects the numbers? Is it that (as Rogov said in discussing women chefs in Israel) that most people dining at this sort of restaurant would rather 'shake the hand of a man than a woman' in thanks and congratulations at the end of a meal experience? Is it that there is something inherent in the ratings systems that skews the numbers? I don't have a clue. Maybe if Rogov reads this, he will jump in. Or someone else with accurate knowledge of how the ratings systems work. It may be different in different countries. Fat Guy, if you are reading this...you seem to have knowledge of these sorts of things...any ideas? Boris has written that Italy seems to be doing better at these numbers than other countries...is this true? If so, why?

That is a beautiful place, chromedome. It makes me sort of breathe a little deeper with a feeling of trust that one would have a wonderful, hospitable, delicious meal....just even in viewing the exterior of it...

LKL Chu...I am curious as to what led you to desire to be a chef in the first place....and also am curious as to what background, path and/or specialized technical skills led you to obtaining positions in these high-profile restaurants....if you would share that?

Agreed. And hearty congratulations on your really fine accomplishments.

A dirty joke or fooling around verbally can have different connotations, meanings, and results depending on a huge variety of factors that have to be weighed at the time it happens. Of course the guys do not forget you are a woman. If a dirty joke is told, it is told with the knowledge that you are there, and that you are a woman. Whether it is a direct challenge of some sort of whether it is just plain meant to be fun has to be sensed. And of course to sense it correctly, you have to be sure you are not becoming personally overwhelmed with the situation thereby creating within yourself inappropriate defensiveness which would ultimately make things uncomfortable. If it makes you feel queasy by the tone or by the facial expression, then it's probably best to walk away from it and not be part of it. If it seems like inclusion, even if it is not what you might consider the best sort( ) then it can be a good thing. And at best, it can be plain good fun. Just my opinion. I am sure there are opposing ones...

Depending on the recipe and the texture you are aiming for, you may want to blanche and then peel it before continuing...

Dramatic intrigue enters the blog....

That was a beautiful loaf of bread, Rachel.

That seems to me to be the beauty of many Italian foods...that one food with the same name (when spoken obviously not in the many dialects but in the newer language on the scene, "Italian") can transform itself into a myriad of forms and flavors as soon as you walk from one division of the country into another. It makes not only for an enormous variety of foods but also for much fun hand-waving in the air, good-mannered insult throwing and passionate debate back and forth. Which is all well and fine in the end, for there's always a good bottle of wine to share and relax with afterwards. Ground cornmeal in all its incarnations...seems to have many uses. When Fifi mentioned grits, I remembered even another way to use them. Does anyone else remember a number of years ago...Al Green had to cancel a number of concerts because he was taken to the hospital with first degree burns all over his body. How did it happen? His girlfriend was mad at him and threw a pot of hot grits on him...apparently while he was..uh, naked. Grits. The angry Southern woman's weapon of choice?

My first exposure to polenta was in the kitchen of an Italian-American woman who had emigrated to the US as a young woman. The polenta she made...is not like these more traditional types. She had six children and little money...and her polenta was made in the form of a soup. With sliced hot dogs added. And there, was supper. Her family loves it, and will forever.

I agree with Miguel. But it is something that the vast majority of Americans have had no exposure to, therefore it will be as incomprehensible as a foreign language is to anyone that has not studied nor practiced it. As with all things, though, this way of doing things can sometimes in certain instances work less-than-perfectly, for the tasks involved in this sort of service are not undemanding in the first place. That is when the whole thing might feel burdensome. Overall, though, we are moving faster globally and simply having a hard time sitting down and relaxing...so this way of service may become less than desireable to the majority of customers that walk in the door. They may prefer to ignore the ritual and all that is behind it...

This is a happy thing to hear! Now we who do not live in Mexico can sit and read and drool and plan of which cheese to try to somehow get next.Trip to Mexico required, maybe... A very nice thing, indeed.

Not enough did, Katherine. And still not enough do. I am simply more optimistic about it than you perhaps, or more pigheaded that it should and will be so. Not only for 'me', or for other women, but for men and for children too. Because when things are as fair as is possible, everyone benefits. Note I said as fair as possible. I do not dream of a perfect world.

Katherine, I understand all too well about women holding the family together. Trust me on this one. But bottom line, the 'people who understand his side' and not the other side are not only becoming fewer as time goes forward with small gains for fairness...but really, do they matter? If they do in any way, they should not. (And although this is really outside the scope of this thread, I must say my feelings are that his side/her side should not matter...the only thing that should matter is to best protect the children from the messes that adults can make.) As Eleanor Roosevelt said: "Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent." As for sociological forces beyond our control...sociology is the study of people in groups. Each person that does something affects the group, defining the overall pattern in which it operates. Therefore sociology is the study of us, and I do not feel like I am beyond my own control, and hope that nobody else feels this way about themselves either. We define our world. A category of academic study does not.

emilymarie...you don't sound naive to me...you sound very well informed. It really helps this discussion to have solid examples. Please, do share with us any more parts of your article or notes that you think are pertinent... And I am very glad that you enjoy the kitchen. Nothing can be more fun, and fulfilling, really, once the varied tests of survival are passed.

Well...there are only twenty-four hours in a day, aren't there. It seems rather disheartening, though...to talk of women or of men in terms of 'as a group'. It sort of places both an onus and a thought pattern upon the individuals in that group that is psychologically limiting. I would rather think of people as individuals...and forget about counting the numbers but rather look at the faces that rise either in happiness or pain. For an individual's contentment will not reside with what the group does...it will reside with what the individual does. If I say individual one more time, I will have to tape my mouth shut or take a nap.

:laugh:Very funny, that story about Keller.... And no, I don't think it occured to most women (in those days) that you could take advantage of the changing landscape by putting themselves in the kitchen rather than aiming for the corner office. Personally I landed there because it was a job, and I needed one. And to further complicate matters, my formal education only extended to the ninth grade. Still 'only' does, as a matter of fact.

Okay, here is where I got to in thinking about the question you posed,about women having equal 'fire in the belly' as men when it comes to using it to 'rise to the top', Busboy. You can look far back in history in the attempt to trace sources and uses of energies. Everyone knows the concept of yin/yang which has existed for tens of thousands of years...which in very general terms defines hot 'fire in the belly' sort of energy as masculine.... and cool, receiving, calming energy as feminine. And superfically (and perhaps sometimes not so superfically) the reasons for defining these energies into these separate sexed categories is obvious. What is important to remember though is that each of these energies resides within each of us. A man can love his children in a nurturing contented way...and a woman can have the urge to get out and do active not passive sorts of things. When I look at the idea of 'fire in the belly' I come up with four major places it can come from. 1. Testosterone. This is the most common place I see fire in the belly come from. It can be completely undirected, but it simply exists and affects whatever comes before it in time and place. Obviously men have more testosterone than women. 2. A fire in the belly that is taught. When I look at children (which I do a lot) I see some children that feel they can do not very much...or that they only can perform to a certain level. And usually if you look at their parents, you will hear their parents telling them this, in both big and small ways. So that is what they end up doing...exactly what is expected of them. On the other hand, I see children who are encouraged, who are given a sort of mythic idea that they CAN accomplish, that they CAN do whatever it is they want...and I see these children having fire in the belly. I see them growing big, and big inside. Note: This sort of thing is not the same as pushing a child. It somehow initializes itself differently and carries through differently. It is not pushing from the outside...it is encouraging from the inside. 3. It seems to me that fire in the belly in some ways must have a neurologic base also. It would not surprise me to learn that people who have fire in the belly have extra activity in some brain cell. ( That does not mean they have any other brain cells at all that work, but just that THAT brain cell is working overtime... ) 4. Fire in the belly...if it is not found in these ways in someone...can be grown. It can be self-grown. It starts with a seed of desire to do something well...to do something excellently and surpassingly...and then it needs to be self-tended by self-narrative. If it is true...that women do not have equal fire in the belly, for whatever reason...I think it can change if the desire is there to do so for a good personal reason. Just as it is possible for a man with a huge fire in his belly to tame it, for a good personal reason. That's all I can come up with, on this one.

I won't argue numbers, Busboy...yours sound accurate enough from my own general view. I don't really ever think about these things till someone brings it up in a fashion I can not ignore, as Gifted Gourmet did with this thread and with Rogov's article. No, again, Rogov should not be mau-mau'd. But again, this is really touchy stuff we are entering into discussing here, and understanding each other is not always easy, even when we speak the same language about simple things, and this is not a simple thing. About the 'fire in the belly'. Any person needs this to be 'successful' in the way we are talking about. Man or woman. There are other ways to be successful, this is only one. But to go out into the world of high stakes (in terms of money, egos, survival of businesses and people's livelihoods) and sort of aim for the top of the heap takes a fire in the belly. It is simply and extremely competitive. It may be clothed in the form of an iron fist in a velvet glove and fancied up pretty but it is jungle-like and it is warfare of a sort to see who wins the game. Lots of people want to win the game. Again, for the money, for the prestige, for the pride, for whatever. Some, just for the purpose of winning. When this game is in the form of a woman wishing to head a professional kitchen (and let us imagine that the intent of the woman is good and pure...let us assume she has a calling to do this sort of work), a kitchen with mostly men working in it, a kitchen where some of those men may have been working at their jobs close to the amount of years that she has been alive...she will need a bigger fire in the belly perhaps than a man walking into a similar game. She will be resented, questioned, tested, subtly tormented for having even assumed she could try this thing, and tripped up till she can prove herself. Some of these things could and do happen with a man who wants to aim to run a kitchen, too...but then again, he is one of the guys....and it is likely he will find a mentor...here or there, sooner or later. There is the physical aspect of the work that requires a bigger fire in the belly than it would for an average man, unless the woman is built like a man in terms of size and upper-body strength. In my case, I am 5'2 and sort of uh...delicately built. So there is this aspect to meet somehow....and I can assure you that when that thirty gallon mixer bowl needs to be poured into something else, the guys will be watching closely half-hoping you won't be able to do it. Is this nice? No. Is this life? Yes. That is why I say women need a fire in the belly if they want this. Is it fair to ask that they have a bigger fire than a guy, just to succeed? I don't think so. Well...that was in part an answer to your question as to whether there is an exogeneous factor. That is it, or part of it, in my view. The other exogeneous factor(s) would have to do with the ideas of a chef being considered a trade more than a profession in past years, and the lack of schools that would offer a woman the 'credentials' she might be made to feel she needed before she even walked in the door of a kitchen (whereas a man might have not been asked for equal credentials). Your next question....do women have less of this fire in the belly than men do? Sigh. Again, let me come back later for this one. This is a really tough one, isn't it.

Balance...can be as difficult a thing to attain in a person's life (or I should say some person's lives) as becoming a 'great woman chef'. It can be as elusive and possibly even moreso. Balance in life is a question of constantly fine-tuning. And if you want or need to bring other people into the equation, it becomes that much more difficult to fine-tune. I really do not want to keep having to use myself as an example, but there is no other way I can find to make this point as clear as possible. There is nothing that I have ever wanted more than a 'balanced' life...the idea of family, community, tradition. Yet it is not a life I was born into (some people do not come equipped with either families or capable parents to care for them) and much as I try, it keeps flip-flopping on me. Obviously my particular skill set is not in this area, though I hope to change this within this particular generation so that my children might have a better chance at it. My skill set seems to work best out in the world, doing stuff that takes 'narrow and intense focus' on my work. It is the only place I can say I have been fully successful. And to be successful is a good thing in life, for it creates joy within one which can then be given outwardly to others. So as a woman who is built this way, I would like to see some difficulties and barriers removed for other women who are built this way. For beyond the task of even doing the work in an atmosphere that often is not supportive...there is the fact that in real life, if you are this sort of person...beyond being admired momentarily when you land in an magazine article or whatever...you will not be generally 'liked'. Men will be taken aback and even women will look askance, when faced by this thing up close and personal. It would just be nice if the road were clearer for any woman who wants to succeed at a top level in this (or any) field of endeavor.

Busboy, you do like to jump into the middle of a potentially passionate debate, and I love that! Your questions are really good ones. Really good ones. For my own part, I want to think better of how to respond to them..I hope someone else jumps in before I get back though....yes, this could be fun

Mmm hmmm. I must admit, Sinclair...that when the question was first asked, of 'why are so few women great chefs?' that my immediate internal response was...'because they have better sense than to want that'....

Tell the truth, Susan. You were just taking another peek at that gorgeous hunk of meat and didn't want to admit it....

It sounds like you are enjoying this process...and I am sure I will enjoy the reading of it! Madhur Jaffrey is wonderful....and even if the recipe does not turn out perfect for whatever! reason...at least the house will be filled with wonderful aromas!

And I also must add, after editing the last post about four times for sheer clarity first and then futhermore to be sure nothing I said would truly offend anyone (which is almost impossible in life whether you open your mouth to speak or even if you do not) that attempting to communicate, particularly in writing....where you can not see a person's face to guess better at what their intent is...is mindboggling. It is amazing we manage to understand each other at all...it is really a small miracle.