Carrot Top

I just happened upon this thread while scanning through 'New Posts'. Sitting here reading, my heart is pounding at not only the intensely visceral descriptions of foods and the photos...both which have a sense of reality and connection which (unfortunately) I rarely see here in the US...but the richness of cultural histories and the stories and symbolic rituals that are threaded through the tastings of food and celebration of life, with humor and such deep knowledge of it all...is simply...staggeringly wonderful, for lack of a better word. So happy to have stumbled upon this thread. Will carry thoughts of it, and all of you, through the day.

Sorry to go off-topic, but it seems to me this thread should be merged with the 'Dealbreakers--' thread for it seems quite telling, these soups, and quite wonderful too. I am sure that every single (in every sense of the word) person could find someone they could adore simply from these posts.

It's a great start. Congratulations to you all up there. Hope it's catching...we could use that too.

Yeah...well, if one is going to do ridiculous things in life, they at least should make a good story. And hopefully they should make some money, too. Back to the original conversation...here are some more thoughts that maybe someone has input on. --Is it the spark of talent that people see and respond to that makes a 'great chef'? --How are the European and American support systems and critical coding systems different for women chefs, if indeed they are? --How does it happen that chefs are subject to such lionization today? --Does a 'great chef' need to have business skills...or do they need to have a committed partner that does?

I 'sort of' fell into the industry by accident, but not really. I had decided it was time to go back to work after a brief 'time off' that was spent being newly married and working on the restoration of the 'classic' old wooden yacht that we lived on. But for at least three years, I had been obsessively reading and cooking to the point of really thinking about not too much else. So when the ad for the job appeared, it seemed heavensent. There was nothing about cooking that I did not want to know. It was what I did with all my time and thoughts. Was I disillusioned? The first day I worked in the kitchen I made a linzertorte. It was so hot that the dough was melting faster than I could work with it. The other cooks were all guys, some had gone to the CIA and were openly contemptuous of me. My feet felt like they were made of blown-up hot rubber halfway through the day. The chef did not come out to show me how to work the larger equipment, so I had to swallow my pride and ask the guys. They were happily snotty to show me. There was some batter that I made in the large mixer. After struggling to even get the bowl off the hooks, I realized my arms were not going to be able to lift it to pour. The guys were studiously avoiding looking at me while they snuck glances out of the corners of their eyes. I got pissed off. So I hauled the thing onto my shoulder and strutted across the kitchen to the pastry table, all 5'2 ninety-eight pounds of me (that was then, pre-children) and carefully poured the f'ing thing into the sheetpans. Halfway through the day, I was so physically and emotionally tired I went into the only private place which was a small dirty bathroom for the staff use. I laid a tea towel on the floor and laid on it, staring up at the underside of the rusty disgusting sink with my back squooshed up against the even filthier toilet base. Stayed there for ten minutes then went back to work. Was I disillusioned? You betcha. But more than that, I wanted to cook, and I wanted to be in that kitchen. So I went back, and gradually earned some sort of grudging respect from the guys. They had to give me that respect in a way, for the pastries I made from my own recipes (the previous pastry chef had used mixes and cans of glop) started to become 'known' and made the restaurant a destination place for dessert. There were many other times during this process over the years of disillusionment. One major one was when I became the Executive Chef (this is much later and in a different place) and was given a staff of mostly men that totally resented me. It took a long time and really a lot of inner struggle and outer struggle to win them over. Some, obviously, were easier than others. One can't just say that they all don't want a woman to succeed, some are grudgingly happy to see when a woman can walk in and do well. One of those guys took me about three years to win over. He persisted in playing underhanded games, persisted in finding odd ways to challenge me...but it finally happened that he gave in. How and why? He started yammering at me endlessly at the top of his lungs about how things 'should be' and I walked up to him and pushed my face towards him and said (in a certain tone) "The things you are talking about are your problems. You take care of them. I will not let your problems be my problems" and I walked (or rather stalked you might say) away.This again, could have been a scenario that would happen with a male Executive Chef...it is not always gender-specific.(The guy turned out to be one of the most helpful cooks in the place after that.) The hardest part for me, is that at first I wanted to be liked. I wanted the staff to like me and to want to work with me and do good things. That...way of thinking did not get the job done, though. There is much advantage taken of bosses who want to be 'liked' in any industry. Someone...a higher up manager...said one day to me...(he was a guy) "Don't worry if they like you. Worry if they respect you. For out of respect can come love." That worked for me. Moving on to less time in the kitchen, more demands in administrative and other tasks. I enjoyed growing in these ways. And for me personally, I realized that my 'gift' was not to be either a technically or creatively 'great' chef. My gift was the ability to organize, operate, train, motivate in the back of house...and it turned out I had a gift of making guests feel...very welcome and cared for when they came to table. I studied the people who came to table and was very interested in making them feel well cared for, both by showing them care in attentions to what their menu choices were to be and by designing special menus for many special functions. It seemed to me that there were people in the kitchen who could actually be greater 'chefs' than me, ultimately, so I moved up and promoted them forward...including moving out of the title of Executive Chef. They still kept calling me that, though...even though I had moved onto other things...but the guy I'd promoted didn't care a whole lot, for he knew I would keep on moving up and out and eventually he'd stand solo. It finally came to the point where my job was pure corporate life. Responsibilites of budgets, planning, the annual cut-backs, and of course the usual 75% of any high-level corporate job....politics. I didn't like it. At all. So that, was the end of that. I quit and moved to Paris and blew all my profit share money on good Reblochon and the occasional Poulet de Bresse. And on and on...and here we are. I've rattled off my story because I know you do love a good story, arielle...and that you will not give up till you have it. I hope your questions have been answered.

Inflict away, arielle. You might even see a silent giggle coming from me....

pidge, thank you for telling us of your experiences. I do agree with you that a woman boss can be perhaps more demanding than a man sometimes. Do you still enjoy the work? Which is the part of it that you enjoy the most (besides a paycheck, which is a good thing to have )? Was there ever a time when you said "Forget this, I won't do this"...but then sort of went through an inner trial by fire and decided to stick to it?

arielle....There is so much to think about both on the subject of 'great woman chefs' and just plain men and women interacting. The men have anger about certain things...and certainly so do we. I must tell you though, that anger kills. I saw it eat my mother alive, all in the name of 'Feminism'. She never managed to accomplish the professional goals she set for herself...and also never managed to find her way out into the world of friendships and relationships through her rage. Anger kills. From the inside out. Hesitating to even hint at a word that has religious connotations here, I will say clearly that this word I use now is not used in any religious way...But anger is The Devil. So when I do get angry (as every human being on earth does, and many and often for good reason)...I have to change it into something else internally. I have to get the best of it rather than it get the best of me. Anger, internalized, and not re-built into something else, of course leads to depression. And one can not move if afflicted by this disease. One withers away into a little lump of puddled misery. There are still a lot of things to talk about on this thread....there is a lot of all categories of both external and subliminal stuff going on. And it is challenging to us all. I hope we make it through carrying more out than we brought in with all our thoughts and feelings. As you said before...one step at a time. And maybe a glass of mulled wine inbetween, now and again....

Yes, Melissa. In agreeement. And thank you, Squeat, for a really nice list there. My horoscope warns of disharmonious lack of agreement today (yeah, that's how it was phrased...a double whammy), but so what. You can't escape your horoscope, now, can you.... So I'll post and wait to see if I've said anything terribly wrong... What is a chef in the first place? Someone who cooks professionally. To take it a bit further, the difference between the term 'cook' and 'chef' is the implication that a chef leads others in the kitchen and assumes responsibility for the final product while having the authority to make decisions that will define and/or create what form the final product actually will take. Besides the capacity for physical strength and stamina which we've discussed, there are the other things that go into being a chef that define that professional title. Those characteristics exist in differing levels in different people. To my mind, they break into four main categories. 1.Technical skill and interest. There must be a certain level of technical skill to start with, but certain individuals excel at this. They have a focus on the foodstuffs and how they interact in a scientific way with each other, with heat, with cold, with timing, with differing methods of putting together....etc etc. 2. Creativity. There must be some of this in any chef just to manage a kitchen in a practical manner. Food is a perishable item...it is alive....and based on what the practical demands of useage are, there will be some foods that will be left over at the end of the day that must be creatively used to make something appealing and delicious, unless one wants to just toss them...which is not good for keeping a business financially afloat. The only way one can avoid this is to have such a tightly knit production schedule that most of the foodstuffs purchased would be approaching the taste and holding ability of cardboard. 3. Knowledge of what the person at table is likely to be interested in eating. Interest in making the intellectual or emotional connection with the food produced, that will lead to the diner's satisfaction. 4. Management and teaching skills. The title of chef holds the notion that one is going to be in charge of others besides themselves. There has to be some ability in training, mentoring, leading, teaching or the staff will be sitting around lost and wondering what to do...and the chef will be unable to accomplish the translation of his/her ideas out to the food at table. Administrative skills should be added in here too, for food orders must be placed based on useage requirements, inventories must be taken and understood, standardized recipes created and written out to provide consistency...(if there are any amount of staff at all or any amount of staff turnover at all either...), scheduling of staff based on production must be done correctly along with of course, daily production schedules for all stations that exist in the kitchen. That's what I see, that defines 'chef' in a basic professional sense....not adding on the idea of 'great' or even 'successful'.

Well...if we can agree to agree that The American Heritage Dictionary might have some useful definitions...what the heck. Disagree if you want. Here are the definitions anyway. Great 1. Very large in size. 2. Larger in size than others of the same kind. 3. Large in quantity or number. 4. Extensive in time or distance. 5. Remarkable or outstanding in magnitude . 6. Of outstanding significance or importance. 7. Chief or principal. 8. Superior in quality or character; noble . 9. Powerful, influential . 10. Eminent, distinguished . 11. Grand, aristocratic. I italicized the definitions that seemed meaningful, to me. The others were amusing, though. Chef A cook, especially the chief cook of a large kitchen staff (French, short for chef de cuisine, head of the kitchen). Woman I think this can be figured out. I like dictionaries.

More than a bit of luck, but they say one can make their own luck.... And more than a bit of understanding of what the public is looking for. This is the restaurant business after all...as you know very well, arielle...as you end the week and have to balance the books. It must be what the public really wants, or that food is going to be sitting in the kitchen getting cold as you stare at it with no customers lining up for it... And if we look at the making of a great meal as 'art', then it is important to remember that it is not an art that is easily translated into something that will last for all time, like a painting or a sculpture. The food on the plate is perfect at one exact moment. It is eaten, then it is gone, but for a memory. So to hope for 'greatness' through an idea of food rather than a reality of food would seem simply moot. But of course that notion is up for critical comment, and I daresay it could be articulated by someone that the idea is the imperative item....

It was meant to be read in a humorous way, Michael. Said in a mincing, defiant tone as I threw my long hair back and sort of wiggled my head and shoulders. Low humour. Sorry, I needed a bit of it.

I feel like such a slut. (Sorry, couldn't restrain myself any longer. It is still better than the other lines I had in mind...)

chefette...here is a more serious answer to your thoughts. It seems to me that when one starts in the kitchen, obviously it is vital to spend an immense amount of time and effort learning every possible thing there is to know. Each station. What can go wrong. What can go right. How to make things better when things do go wrong. Food. Beverage. Wine. Equipment. Plating. Endless amounts of things to learn. But when the time comes, if the situation is such where there is an Executive Chef...the responsibility of that person is to direct and train others and to maintain the support systems that will enable them to do their jobs in a pleasant and fruitful manner. It is important overall, for a restaurant that prides itself on consistency and excellence, to not be dependent on one person that is the technical star. What happens if that person gets sick? Therefore the job of an Executive Chef is to bring as many cooks right up to the same OR BETTER capabilities that they themselves hold. This means that everyone grows. Everyone profits. Also...it is good to remember that the experience of a meal is not just about the food. It is about feeling cared for. People do want to see and shake the hand and see the face and feel for themselves whether the care they saw in the food was a technical spoof or whether it came from the heart. Technique and hard work matter. But overall, the bottom line experience is to make the guest feel just plain loved...if that can be swung. That's what food is all about, to me. There's too little of this 'nowadays'. But then again, there probably always was....

I don't know what NSH means, andiesenji, but I double your sentiment.

Rogov...I admit that in this thread the original questions and responses that you posed in your article have been braided into a somewhat different loaf at times by my persistent and neverending aggravating (even to me) posts. I saw an opportunity to follow the path you had opened up...and rather to talk of the more basic parts of becoming a 'great chef', I took a bit of a turn and used what I perceived to be a chance to talk about things that usually we do not talk about out loud. What can I say? My sense of direction is bad, I get lost easily. So chefette's comments could be perceived as being 'right on the button', at least in terms of my posts. I did not go deep into the psyche of 'why' we want to cook...which of course is really the point of wanting to do good at anything... the reason for which seems to me to be an outpouring of the soul in a giving way. That, for me, is the basis of all interest in food at all. There is something sort of 'yucky' about the whole 'chef as a great thing' idea. But the people out there in the real world seem to like it...it seems to entertain them...therefore creating a sort of 'theatre' about the whole thing. Inescapable. Anyway...just wanted to clarify...whatever...a bit. Oh, plus. One of the original reasons for my getting lost down the path of 'how-to's' rather than 'why's' was that I got several PM's and emails from women who were unwilling to post for themselves in the thread, because they were afraid to expose themselves to possible criticism for the (natural) worries and fears they had. So I got mad. For them. Don't get a redhead mad.

chefette...I didn't copy your full post here, but I must say I love the way you express yourself. 'The sexy long hours'...different 'hair growth and appendages' really, I can't read this without laughing out loud, with real pleasure. Thanks...beautiful post.

I would guess that that is where all else would have to flow from, or it would be total bullshit, wouldn't it?

Burdock root is also used by Italians, though I am not sure if it is sold...or merely gathered by people in rural areas. It is cooked like fennel (though blanched first to remove bitterness), braised in chicken or beef broth in the oven or top-of-stove and served in the reduced broth with grated Parmesan on top. Good...earthy and hearty.

Your thoughts seem accurate and knowledgeable to me...and as it seems I have to keep poking at this to best understand it...some further thoughts came to my mind in response. There is this 'healthy activity in the middle' in both professional kitchens and other sectors of the economy in general, but the leaps to the top are not happening as much with women as with men. Recently I came across an article (might have been in the WSJ) that was discussing this phenomena, and the overall thesis of the article was, that after interviewing many 'top management' types in business as to why men were continuing to be promoted to the upper echelons over equal numbers of women, one vital fact was cited. When analyzing the skills needed to to operate well at the upper management levels, in performance evaluations the women overall were coming up short in one particular area...that of being assertive in business situations. Men, overall, scored higher in areas like...having a 'take-charge' attitude....being able to take an unpopular stance when they believed it and standing up for it within the corporate structure rather than being 'yes' men, and overall sheer assertiveness in business situations. This may not seem like it is something that would be required in a woman that wished to be a 'great chef' but unless she is going to be doing all the cooking, prep, service and every job in the restaurant herself, she has got to be able to delegate and lead well, so the comparison is valid, in my mind. When I read the article, immediately a bell went off in my mind that said "Yes! Exactly." For I remembered seeing this myself, in business situations. Taking this a bit further for comparison purposes, I ran three scenarios through my mind, all with women and men in the same situational arena. Let us imagine we are in Goldman Sachs, in the Private Dining Rooms, at lunch time. Again, I can compare this business atmosphere to the stressful atmosphere of a professional kitchen, for though it is quieter and much more 'elegant', the demand for 'now' and the demand for excellence exists here. In the first room, we are looking in on about twenty five people. Most are in their mid-twenties. They are all well-prepared for their work, all well-educated with newly-minted MBA's from Harvard or Wharton or wherever, and have been hand-picked for inclusion in this business. Right now, however, these well-educated people are actually the 'newbies', and they will undergo massive and stringent tests of endurance and smarts to see how they measure up and who will last. (For a good read on this particular subject, Jim Cramer's book 'Confessions of a Street Addict ' is wonderful, not to mention scary and hilarious. Jim was a 'newbie' when I was Executive Chef at GS...and he was in these meetings...) The meeting is started, questions are raised, comments are asked for, and the participation of the attendees is waited upon. You will see mostly men jumping in, talking, insisting something should or should not be done a certain way...being the 'squeaky wheels'. The women do not, on a comparative percentage level, raise their hands as much, insist as much, or jump in as much. Next room we will view a room of VPs...mid-level...men and women...dining with a client. Let's say its Bronfman. Or both Bronfmans. Two Bronfmans are always better and more entertaining than one. Here, you will see the women that have made it to this level, participating in the sense of 'outgoingness', in the sense of directing the conversation, much more closely equal to the men...but except for rare times (and rare...women...) still the men seem to dominate a bit. In the last room we will look in on...well let's imagine someone like (of course now we are just imagining, we are not speaking specifically and in no political sense whatsoever) ...let's make it two women and two men. Let's make it Henry Kissinger, Edward Kennedy, Golda Meir, and Geraldine Ferraro. In this room, you will find that there is no dominant male or female speaker...it is almost exactly equal in terms of who is taking the floor and who is directing the conversation in the ways they each individually wish. (There is one unbalanced tone to this group of people, and it is the intensely dominant male voice of Kissinger...a filling of the room happens when he speaks and it is dominant. But the other speakers compensate by lowering their tones, and speaking clearly and at a good level, giving impact to their words, so this dominant male thing does not take over...) What this says to me, this viewing of women and men at various levels of 'climbing the ladder' is that unless (again, sorry here I go) a woman has sufficient 'fire in the belly' to be somewhat assertive when in the company of men, the men will continue to dominate, for assertiveness is valued in the doings of business. It can be quite fearsome for most women to be assertive. It makes them feel like people will not like them, and that they are doing something 'wrong'. Could be true, that they won't initially be 'liked' for it. But if a person wants to head for the top, being 'liked' is not on the top of their wish list. Being respected, is.

Ouch. I just realized I'd better change my 'signature' quote.....

Unfortunately, I must say there are not a lot of great restaurants to go to here. That is an understatement, actually. University town, lots of pizza places and some coffee shop/diner/vegetarian places that one would not want to look too closely at, I fear, in the kitchens where the college kids/cooks turn over with great regularity and have little sense of either ownership or sanitation. One new restaurant has opened with a hype of being 'New York Upscale' type and it is doing surprisingly well. Technical capability in the kitchen, usually good service out front, and a bit of style overall. Thank goodness. Other than that, Roanoke is close by and has one each good Japanese, Indian, and 'Brazilian' (in quotes for the food has such a French angle that it is somewhere in between) restaurants. For a fine dining experience, The Greenbrier is about an hour and a half from here...and there is a small restaurant in Monroe County, WV owned by an ex-Greenbrier Sous Chef which is very good too foodwise but shaky in service and atmosphere.... Well...you know....I even get exasperated at the grocery stores....

Yes, it is in small self-owned food businesses where women thrive, it seems. It also would seem to make the most sense, in all ways, to take this route if one wanted to do something well and avoid a lot of mess and do things their own way. But then, of course, we come to the question of where a woman will get the start-up money in the first place. Here, in the US we are lucky to have SBA programs of all sorts that help people start businesses.Even some programs specifically for women wishing to start small businesses. But if for some reason one does not qualify for an SBA loan (you do need some of your own money at the very least), then one either has to have personal financial resources or someone to sign off on a loan. We are luckier than women in Israel, it seems, for Rogov stated that women there generally need two men as co-signers to apply for any loan. We don't need that here, but we do need some form of collateral. The forms of collateral that a loan would be assesed as being worthy or not to give, is both financial (which means one generally has had to work to get it unless one has a trust fund or family resources) and quantitative business experience which would state capability in the business being entered into. There are ways around this if someone is extremely canny and determined, to start on a shoestring and work towards more.This is becoming more difficult than it was in the past, though, for not only are customers demanding more in the way of how a place looks and the chi chi it gives off...but even health regulations are growing tighter and more restrictive, to the point that in some places, the older businesses are being grandfather'd in as exceptions to the newer rules, for many of them would not be able to remain open without total retro-fits. The equipment being demanded and the regulations of things like plumbing and even ceiling levels can turn into a budgetary nightmare. Even otherwise the amount of money needed to start up even the smallest food business is not small change. Rent or lease....insurance of various sorts...overhead....labor....equipment...smallwares....stock food items and fresh food items....decor....seating....more insurance.... The bank will require that the person taking the loan be viewed as capable of managing all these things in a capable manner. So therefore, it goes back to being able to attain...and show accomplishment...in the workplace, to begin with.

Yes, Fresser. It is most definitely traif. With all that infers...( )

Quite often the flavor of a grilled steak is enhanced by topping at service time with a small piece of softened butter that has been blended with minced herbs and lemon.... And of course Bearnaise Sauce, which is traditionally served with beef, is major-time butter madness. (Of a wonderful sort, to my mind ) But a burger...there is something about the texture that says 'no' to butter in my mind. Though there might be a way....mustard butter, maybe...