Carrot Top

There is one aspect (at least) of Sinclair's philosophic viewpoint that I feel should be thoughtfully addressed...and that is the philosophy that bottom-line, there are things more important than aiming to build a career, which of course would be one's family. And she also noted that her feelings on this had evolved over time, in coming to this decision. Sometimes age, and time, do make changes in how one approaches this subject. In general, people in their twenties are not thinking...about the same things someone in their thirties forties or beyond...would be thinking about, or in the same ways. The thing is...that life is a progression, and if there is something 'important' in a way of finding truth... to learn, we each must do it themselves. And one person's truth might finally, not be another's. .................................................. I fell across a quote that seemed appropriate for this discussion yesterday...Picasso....(an old guy, you know, and perhaps his personal life was not what one would consider 'ordered' but nevertheless he did bring certain other things into the world)..."People ask me how I managed to do the things I did. My answer is 'I just did them, that's how'."

He's a doll, Rachel. What a smile!

I am curious as to whether there are discernable taste or texture differences between these. Also curious as to whether one stands head and shoulders (though really we should be looking at the other end of the animal in a ham but I am trying to be delicate ) above the others?

Or it could just be that is what they have come to expect from long-standing useage. One more thought came to me on this. During the final processes of consulting on the menus and operations procedures of a restaurant that was to be opened here (in the Southeast) I was showing the owner how to draw up the initial orders lists, with all the zillion details such as table butter that ones takes for granted. As I started to check off what she would need, while discussing it, she said "Butter? For the breads? Oh, no, don't order that." I was rather stunned, and asked why. For the breads...were to be brought in every day from a good local bakery. "It's not healthy for you" she said..."and plus, it costs too much." All the other menu components were headed towards 'upscale' (at least for this geographic area) so I continued my arguments for butter. No dice. She would not be persuaded. And there the place is....serving...margarine. Pah. I think there is a generation of people who grew up believing that margarine was somehow better and healthier for you...and can not change course from this belief no matter what would come along to say otherwise. Habit.

I've read some things like this before....telling us how guilty we all feel. I haven't noticed it in anyone.

Now I'm really getting mad, because not only have you reminded me that there is no real butter to be had out there, but worse...even worse...there is no MILK TO BE HAD FOR YOUR COFFEE. Sorry. Just had to let that out. I wonder now. Are the cows I see in the fields here still real?

My guess would be portion control and labor issues...i.e. the time (however short) it takes to prep butter for service. I have often heard that there is an unfortunate dearth of skilled and willing labor for the (smaller or Mom &Pop) restaurants in the areas of the South I've lived in. On the other hand, one can still often find 'real country butter' (you know, the stuff that really smells like a cow) in the local stores, and it seems to sell well enough.

Astonishingly beautiful photo....again! I am simply stunned.

OK I promise this is my last post for a while. This promise is to myself as much as to anyone else... I can not get any further in thinking about the ratings systems or critical acclaim because it is not my subject. Hopefully some one of the 16,000+ members of egullet will be able to shed some light on this if they hold any knowledge about this subject. Here is my final thought. In Rachel's blog this week (rsincere) she made the comment about a certain dish that 'You can't polish a turd'. Great line...and I hope she will not mind if I take it and twist it a bit for my own purposes. Sometimes all we have is a turd. (It might be said that the idea of women entering the world of professional kitchens and aiming for the top as in 'great chef' has certain turd-like aspects to it....) If there is only a turd, personally I would rather set to work on figuring out a way to polish it....rather than sit around and stare at it in endless fascination, discussing its shape, size and general stench. There's got to be some way to polish a turd.

Here is an exercise I entertained myself with last night. I imagined myself as different people. I was first a business person...first a male one, then a female one, taking clients out for a meal. Then I became a man taking a woman out to dinner. (P.S. Why do I say man taking woman out...because that is still the 'norm' and I must say it is staggeringly impressive to me how a guy ever gets the guts up to ask a woman out in the first place....that is one task most women do not usually approach...so thank you for those that undertake this daunting thing --or so it seems to me--). You could substitute woman taking man out, though, too, for purposes of the exercise. Then I became an individual woman or man going out to dinner. And I thought about...which I would choose, and why....if the option of two equivallently excellent restaurants were placed before me, one with a woman chef...and one with a man chef. This was an interesting internal exercise to do. Try it, if you like.... Tell us what you came up with, and why....

Yes, Katharine....one might want to add that 'hyperactive' category in there if you think about it... But not all men are like this, not even most younger ones. My belief, anyway. And let's face it...unless the guy is homosexual, there's a female in this equation somewhere. It is very amusing to me, that the idea of this ADHD thing in this situation actually came from my own ex-husband...who suddenly decided he had this disease, then insisted to me that this was the root of his 'problem'...in an attempt to persuade me that being married to him would be a good thing to do....and indeed, I would even be 'helping the world' by feeling sorry for one such afflicted person. I tell ya, life is a hoot!

Yes...and I have read of studies where people were asked whether they viewed a tall man vs. a short man, or a woman vs. a man...or a good-looking person vs. one that was not considered so....any number of these comparisons...in terms of what level they felt the effectiveness of the subject(s) would be in a number of different categories. This is real stuff, and not to be dismissed in any way. It is a part of everyday life so much that we mostly don't even notice when we do it..... But for someone who does not fit the 'winning' categories, there has to be some way to sort of improve their odds....no? Your comment on balance rather than 'role exchange' is fascinating. Do you think that the cultures that seem to support this (you mentioned Italy/Austria) hold something that perhaps other cultures might learn from if they wanted? (Though on this point....that one culture will look closely at another and try to change.... I find myself somewhat pessimistic, though I am willing to be persuaded otherwise... )

Interesting comparison...and one that I never would have thought of!

It would take a trip to the thesaurus to find the words that would tell you how this made me feel...your writing, and all that is behind it in terms of this particular experience you have so recently had...and the feelings that thread though it all in an intensity of finely-woven emotions that have been created by the life your mother offered while she was here. You have packed love in those dishes you prepared for your father...love and sustenance of a sort that words can not offer. That is a continuance of what your mother did for you all...and that is the best thing this world has to offer. He will grow stronger in this time, when he goes to the freezer and eats. Not from the food...but from what it holds.

Nice post, there. Informational, educational, full of things to think about...including the taste of the food and wine. But I must say that the high point of it all, for me anyway, was the invention of the word 'cloddish babboso'. Good job! I am pleased to make this part of my vocabulary....it makes me smile to even think of the word....

'Good'? Merely 'good', McDuff? That sounds more like a small taste of heaven. Now we need to hear what you would define as 'great', please, for we are hungry and rely on these words to feed us....

Your butts are the best, snowangel. It must have something to do with beer imbibed, early, on a school day. Thank you for the advice...I will try it.

I wonder if there is a 'Gadget-of-the-Month' Club anywhere...then of course one would have to join a 'Monthly-Storage-Solution-For-Your-Kitchen Gadgets' Club.... I'm with the Wolf stove people. Can I add a nice solid butcher block table and about five of the best knives available? No. Wait. I need a good dishwasher and a larger Kitchen Aid mixer. And some attachments. Can we make this ten thousand or so, StudentChefEclipse? Pretty please?

Sinclair...if you feel your posts have been 'attacked' then dismissed...well...this is a public debate. It takes bravery to state out loud in front of people what a person strongly believes and then to stand up for it, for there will be other viewpoints, and they will be just as strong. This debate could probably go on for the ages...but it will, within our own group, probably wear out after we've all said what we think needs being said. And finally, at the end of this debate, if we have all opened our hearts and minds to what each person has said, we might be lucky to take away a bit of knowledge that can move us each individually forward in whatever direction one wants to go. The debate is still open, however, so if you think there is more to say, that option is available. But discussion of intense subjects like this never is too pretty. As far as drawing in the idea of a personal life to support ideas or arguments, it seems to me that the genesis of the notion that a woman's personal life did have some interaction with her potential for success as a 'great woman chef' was mentioned by almost everyone, if not everyone that posted. I am not sure what you mean by 'drawing in the weak' to support their stand... And I am not sure who, if anyone, you would see on this post who has pleaded they have been 'wounded'. In my own case, I used my life to throw down on the table in a direct and confrontational manner because it was my opinion that the debate had not really begun, in a true and passionate manner. It seemed there was little interest in posting. It seemed that no discussion was even really going to happen in any depth. I asked for women to post and talk, twice. And since nobody did, I did what I thought would work...to bring people in to talk. I threw my own life out on the table for everyone to examine. Honestly, the idea of having to do that made me feel slightly nauseous. For I am far from perfect...and there would be 'me' sitting there as example to poke at and examine in light of each of our own thoughts and feelings. But factually, the story of my life is a good thing for use in this way, because there have been many factors in it that could possibly...or possibly not...depending on the person's viewpoint....be used in examining what goes on when...sometimes...not always...a woman wants, aims for, and succeeds in some sense...in getting close to what we are talking about...as I said...not a 'great' woman chef, but merely one who got to a certain professional level. I do think our own lives, and the stories that come from them, show a bit of reality in a way that other methods of formal study, readings of sociology, and looking at numbers do not. For they are here and now, our lives, and they are each different and capable of being sculpted into what we wish.

Michael...First of all I agree with you that a squeeze of lemon in iced tea can be an excellent thing. And also agree with you that anyone who can not understand that...well...it will be their loss. But, to be serious, though...about this other thing....if it is the public that determines partially who the 'great chefs' are (man or woman) by voting with their feet....they belong in this thread saying what they feel. If it is the people who make up the industry of food and restaurant writers and critics that determine partially (and this is a huge nugget of this thing, isn't it...the media attention and acclaim?) who the 'great chefs' are (whether man or woman, again) then we would hope they would join into the discussion here to add to the general knowledge of the subject...so that we all can learn. Thanks for joining us, and please, if you do think of something, write it out....for it would be great to get closer to figuring this thing out...

emilymarie...you've been thinking about this since earlier in the thread....me too. And though this whole thing is rather exhausting, I guess we'd better get to work on finding our own answers for it...for nobody is jumping in to add ideas or information. In my opinion, all the reasons you have stated above are true in bits and pieces here and there. But I see one more reason...and I haven't quite solidified what my thoughts are on it...for though accustomed to thinking of the internal ways and means of motivation....and the realities of 'doing' in a kitchen...honestly I have never been too interested in who was winning the prizes, beyond knowing who it was that I personally felt was making a difference. So there is little material to work with in an external sort of way...in an empirical sort of way...for me, with this. But here are some thoughts....Rogov mentioned that there still are many diners who would prefer to shake a man's hand than a woman's at the end of a fine dining experience where they were chef. Boris mentioned something about 'classic implementation of a taboo' in discussing (I think it was) uniforms. And with my own eyes, I see that though this thread has attracted a pretty good amount of readers, there are few that are actually posting. And even beyond that...there are few that are even showing up as 'readers'. They are logging off to be invisible as they read this thread. ( I know this because I have spent a sickeningly huge amount of time here lately! ) Why is this? Could be that we all are such a rough crowd they don't want to come in and play... Or it could be this...taboo thing. A sort of 'messing around with this stuff could get you in trouble.... or it could be dangerous....' Well. Taboos are usually based on myths, and myths have power. And taboos are implemented so as to protect the ideas of a society as it has planned itself to work best....(or as it thinks it will work best...) How this might translate into women being noted and touted (or not) for being 'great chefs' might be worth considering....

I do believe that you have a really good career potential as a conceptual artist...

Are there wrong ways and right ways to do things in this world? Yes. Morally, ethically, and behaviorally. Does one have to aim for the top of the heap to be an important part of the overall scheme of things in the world? No. Not at all. But the point is that there are many people (and in particular many women because of our common history quite recently and still in some parts of the world as being chattel) who might be happier overall in their lives if they thought it was possible to accomplish reaching the top. One might not WANT to do this in a professional kitchen. Okay, fine. One might not want to do it anywhere. But for those who do want to try to climb the mountain, I feel that the most important thing is not to let anyone trip you up, however inadvertantly, with stories of how "This is the way things are and it is just too hard and who really would want this thing anyway...if they were a 'good' person." It is possible to be a good person and to get to the top. Once again, a fire in the belly and self-perception have a lot to do with whether one has a good chance at accomplishing their dreams. Here is an example: Compare these two statements. 1. I am a twice-divorced woman who ran away from home at fourteen and went to work to support herself because her mother was so busy attaining Ph.D's and other things in the name of Feminism that she did not have time for a child and who asked to have the child adopted or put in foster care. I've had money but have also been poor. I now have two children and am a 'single Mom' (personal note: I think these two words need to be erased from the language...with the sort of inference that they carry...) staying at home to raise the children. 2. I am a woman raising two wonderful children by herself but who thoroughly enjoys the opportunity to do so. I am lucky to be able to do this, because although I have had two past marriages, I also had a career for a number of years that was not only emotionally and intellectually fulfilling and completely fascinating...but that also paid a six-figure salary and had great benefits...allowing me to be somewhat financially independent.Because of that career, I was also able to travel quite a bit of the world and greatly enjoyed that, too. These two statements are about the same person. The first is shaded by self-doubt. It goes to the lowest factor of things. It buys into sociologic definitions of both women and the world in general. The second has the light of purpose and personal satisfaction gleaming upon it. The second is the sort of thinking that allows a person to move forward when faced with challenges. ............................................................. The statement 'it is not winning or losing that counts, it is how you played the game' brings to mind one overall thought and then several smaller ones. First...good sportsmanship and fairness is obviously something that everyone should carry within them and use. But winning or losing does count. It counts in that if a person or a group 'loses' to another person or group who do not care about good sportsmanship or fairness (guess what...they are out there in droves, and they may be smiling and acting 'nice' in daily life but their sole intent is to win without any holds barred)...then the person or group that loses will have to live by the rules of the winner. Obviously it would be better if we 'could all just get along with each other' but that has not happened in human history as of yet.... Now I bet that there are two small questions, if not more, remaining. Because when a person succeeds at something that other people in general do not attempt to do,or care to do, (or that other people may have attempted to do and not succeeded) the other people get pissed off. 'Not fair!' they cry. 'You didn't do it the way it was SUPPOSED to be done!' Do I have a diploma from any school whatsoever, which so many other people have worked hard and paid good money to get? No, I don't. But I can read books and study, and have done so. There are libraries. My first job in a kitchen was attained based on a number of test(s) by the chef, both verbal questionings and skill tests. I managed to pass those tests better than the other applicants for the job because I had studied. I had read Larousse Gastronomique from A to Z, each entry. I totally loved the idea of cooking professionally and still love the idea of it though it is not the time for it, now, in my life. Fire in the belly. I had cooked at home. And when the chef put three applicants in the kitchen....where the pastry department had been based on pulling out some cake mix and a can of frosting, then throwing the thing together and using a star tip here and there to make it 'look' professional so they could sell it as fine food pastry...of the three final applicants I got the job because I could and did make a good, 'from-scratch' Napoleon. So I can not say that I consider it 'unfair' that I entered the kitchen with less formal education if, finally, I could do the job as well or better than the other applicants. The other question I am sure that resides in your mind is 'Did she sleep with anyone to get promoted?' (Funny how that question does not come to mind with any men that move forward, huh?) And my answer is, No, I didn't. Because that would have compromised me. After all this nonsense is said and done though, sometimes I wish I had. Just for the fun of it, you know... You may not want to do this. (Aim to be a 'great woman chef' with all that infers in our culture and society). Lots of people may not want to do this. But for the few that do, subtle inferences about how they could do it or how they did do it or whether there could be a higher calling for them by being a more....'balanced' person....these inferences are moot.

Although my past seemingly has been filled with what may appear to you or to others as lack of 'brightness' I can assure you it has not been. There have been challenges. Lots of people have these in differing ways. My past and my present are actually rather joyous most of the time....because it is actually possible to be both 'happy' and contented regardless of one's external circumstances. It's all in how you look at it. But I thank you for your words and wish you satisfaction in your life too, in whichever form you personally choose it to be. And if it seems I keep harping on about 'success' in either a 'title' or in certain forms of accomplishment, it is based on what the original question was..."Why so few women are great chefs?"

Arielle....You are very sweet. It has been interesting during this thread to watch...for you seem to be a naturally born diplomat, in that you are brave enough to speak out about what you feel...but also seem to be trying to bring us all closer together in agreement.... . Listen..I have to tell you that I burst out laughing, though, at the idea of feeling badly about that past marriage. No, there were no children....and though it felt bad at the time, I have been married again since, this time to a guy 14 years younger than me (don't ask I was tired and he kept insisting) and from that marriage there are children, which are an enormous blessing and pleasure...although now, again, the marriage has ended. Why? Well....he must have had a bad case of adult ADD (attention deficit disorder) because he kept forgetting he was married to me, and lived with (yes, set up house with! ) at least two other women during the ten years we were married...(his long absences were always due to 'travel', you know...which as a good provider he was required to do for his job...!) And no...one would not have ever guessed there was anything 'wrong' with the marriage for he was quite attentive when he was home! I've always sort of viewed marriage in a way that might be considered more Gallic than Anglo-Saxon, in that I believe it needs to be at least as much of a common-sense arrangement than a mad dash into forcing oneself to believe the whole thing is 'romantic' for the next endless number of years that it will last....but...that was just a wee bit too much for me to swallow...(his behavior) when I discovered it. Yes, I am laughing...and not in pain (though certainly pain has not been nonexistent in my life) but just at the sheer oddness of life and how it can carry people different places. Bottom line, I tell myself (and my children) "If that is the worst thing that has happened to you, consider yourself lucky" and I truly mean that. There are many more terrible things happening to people around the world. But again, here we have one more argument as women, to become a bit more interested in ways of expressing ourselves that do not involve uh, 'relationships'...for relationships can fail, and if you have allowed yourself to become financially entwined, there can be some serious fallout. It sounds as if both you and your husband are working very hard right now, and it sounds really good. I remain optimistic both about the chances of two people who want to, working together in a relationship while still allowing each other room to grow and do.... As for me, I'm not too sure about wanting to try this marriage thing again...I've chosen badly twice! What I 'do' now is that I am a stay-at-home Mom. Yeah, another odd thing. Particularly without a husband! But that is what makes me most happy right now...and as the children get older and spend more time out of the house, something else will undoubtedly happen. When I left being a chef , it was because I wanted to, because it had become too much about management and not enough about food. That was inherent in the job in the place I worked which was a large international investment bank on Wall Street. They had made me a VP...and the whole thing contorted itself into something that was more corporate than being about food...which is where it had started. I don't regret a moment of it at all! Life is hopefully long for us all, and there are lots of coats we can try on...!