Carrot Top

Arielle...I am not so sure that Rogov's words were meant to be read with any sort of paternalistic essence...as a matter of fact, I believe the opposite. But we do have a problem here. Nobody wants to really get down and dirty and talk about this stuff, because we are all entrenched in it simply because of the fact that we are men or we are women. There is an 'us' and there is a 'them'. And one can get very touchy about this fact when personal liberties and choice (not to mention how one gets through simple daily life with dignity) are at stake. And there is a flip-side to everything. If we do not allow men to express their feelings (not talking about Rogov here, but talking more about men who disdain or dislike the changes they see with how women and the balances of power(s) are shifting) it will be kept inside simmering and very angry. And that gets nobody anywhere, for then there is a quiet war, a silent war there is no way to move through. Should it be that there is an 'us' and there is a 'them'? In many ways, no. We should all be one people. But if we were all one people, we would all be the same and much of the thrill of the essence of living would be gone. Besides, there would be nobody anyone had an urge to kiss. (Obviously, we are talking as if the world were entirely heterosexual, which it is not...please take these words as just a simple joke, people...) For a man to sit down and try to write about women empowering themselves is not only brave but it must be difficult. For the first question is ..."Is it his to talk about?". One could say no. But I say, anyone who has the guts to talk about it has had the guts to start a discussion which is sorely needed. He is a man and because of that, the way we read him as women is tinged with our own past experiences, histories, and thoughts. At the same time...if a woman had started this discussion, it would be regarded as being simply self-serving. So I thank Rogov. And I thank anyone who cares. The way we say things, the languages we speak, are all different. The point is to begin talking and keep thinking...for "dialogue is the oxygen of change", it seems to me..... and hopefully there will be something that will give good thought and maybe something new learned, to each of us upon reading and writing about things that matter.

StudentChefEclipse...I do agree with your analysis of the situation, but also believe that it is not schools that will create great women chefs, it is the women themselves. I do believe that even having schools that teach this as a 'profession' will move things forward in a positive manner to be sure. For in the past, many people entering the kitchen of a working restaurant went there for the purpose of simply having a job that would pay the bills, not with any idea of 'career' or profession in mind. If a woman in the past (let's say at least thirty years ago)(and perhaps even now) were to initially want to consider entering the professional world...with the intent of being considered a 'professional', it is likely that she would look to the more traditional sources that society has considered as professions in the past...i.e. medicine, law, business. The idea of 'chef' would not occur to her, possibly. Why would this be so? Because the idea of a 'profession' holds a sort of innate promise of a safe, well-mannered, educated workingplace....with controls in place to protect those who work there both financially and emotionally. Good pay leading to excellent pay would also be a criteria. Health insurance and other benefits would also be another criteria. These do not exist in many of the professional kitchens that exist, even today. As a matter of fact, when trying to think of a comparative position to the actual work that requires doing in many kitchens, the closest I could come was 'firefighter'. For that is what you end up going home feeling like.(And often looking like, too...) So here we have a profession...that does not hold some real, measurable benefits to one who would undertake it. Male or female, though at the moment we are talking about women. My personal experience is that I entered a professional kitchen as a completely self-taught cook, looking for a job that interested me, in 1978...those days when women were not often there. Fifteen years later I decided to leave the business...for my own personal reasons....but in that time I managed to attain the title of Executive Chef overseeing multiple facilities of different levels of food and service, some of those facilities geared to be 'run-of-mill' and some geared to be fine food. I successfully managed a staff of 150 employees and a nine million dollar budget annually and to my great joy have many 'thank you for a wonderful meal' letters in my portfolio from people whom society would consider 'heavy hitters'. It is not schools that will make women chefs, though they will help. It is not how society has changed and will continue to change that will make women chefs, though that will help. It is a fire in the belly that will make women chefs. It is a solid determination to cut through the crap and get out there and do it. It is being fearless in the face of tons of bullshit. It is facing up to the fact internally that it is a ton of bullshit you will face, and that you will just get out there and put your blinders on and do it. It is looking the big questions straight in the face and having good solid answers to them, for anyone that may ask. And having gotten to that point, there is nothing to worry about but the work. Worrying about how to fit in the other parts of a womans life is no small task. But let's face it...there are no guarantees in life for anything. You can place your bets as best you will, then wait to see what happens. And never...ever...let anyone tell you what you can or can't do, or how you should do it. Not even me, ha ha...!

I'm just walking up this path of discussion very slowly, and looking at each pebble of thought as it comes along. Obviously (or I hope obviously) I have very strong feelings about the fact that there seem to be less women in positions of being either 'great chefs' or even bringing it down a notch, women running professional kitchens whom hold the title of chef. It seems to me there is no one thing to blame, no one group to blame, no one anything to 'blame.' But there are causes, and therefore there should be solutions that can be approached with a view towards improving the situation. It is not enough for me...to be able to look at the excellent examples of successful great women chefs, and to say "They did it, therefore others can", although this is no small feat that they are standing there as examples. It seems there should be more than just the biographies or the statistics available, however. It seems there should be a cookbook on the subject. A book of recipes and discussion of how this was done. A taking apart of the finished product, breaking it down into which ingredients went into it and the techniques that were used to create this thing, this thing that we could use more of (again, my opinion only), the 'great woman chef'. I hope this thread will be able to approach that idea in some small way, and that some woman reading it whom wishes ideas or succor will find some small piece of that here...and that anyone else reading it will find upon reading a closer understanding of the subject....and that finally, the thoughts presented will do some one in some way some good. To my mind, it is a mare's nest that needs untangling.

Sort of like that word game where kids sit in a circle and each whisper the same single fact in the next one's ear... By the time the circle is finished and the fact is said out loud....voila! We have a different fact. So much information...coming out so fast in the various media(s). And incredible how carefully one needs to read it to even start to make an attempt to understand it, isn't it. Thanks for the reminder.

Here's a question...if anyone wants to talk. If not, then what the heck. My fingers need exercise and a good place to do it is on this keyboard. We are (or hope to be) discussing why so few women are 'great chefs'. So far the term 'great chefs' has been defined for use in this discussion. The next question I have is this: Is the daily work of being a chef, in the general everyday sense of the word, to be defined as being.... 1. A profession 2. A vocation 3. An occupation 4. A job, or 5. A trade Here are definitions of each of these words, from The American Heritage Dictionary: 'Profession'- An occupation, such as law, medicine, or engineering, that requires considerable training and specialized study. 'Vocation'- A regular occupation, especially one for which a person is particulary suited or qualified. 'Occupation'- An activity that serves as one's regular source of livelihood; a vocation. 'Job'- A regular activity performed in exchange for payment, especially as one's trade, occupation, or profession. 'Trade'- An occupation, especially one requiring skilled labor; craft; i.e.'the building trades including carpentry, masonry, plumbing and electrical installation.' Which category would you place the work of a chef in? Why? Has the definition (of either the word itself, or of the cultural standing of the type of work a chef performs) changed over the past thirty years or so? How, and why, if so?

Ahhh....I feel a Sanzaru Moment coming on.... It can be excused. After all, it is Saru Doshi. http://www.pghs.sa.edu.au/monkey6feb04.htm

I was informed last night that Starbucks has its own satellite radion station...now even driving in your car you can feel like you are there....

1910?...1911?...That First World War changed the world, didn't it. Including the horrific crime of totting out canned baked beans to start the day with... Wrong, wrong...yes. Wrong, even close to a hundred years later.... Excuse me, please...I must get my smoking jacket on and adjust my antimaccasar....

Only one fat doe?! Well at least it sounds like she is eating right. From my back deck where I used to live in West Virginia....you would see herds of fat does and an occasional buck...every day for months on end. People used to hit me up for the chance to sit on the deck of a quiet afternoon with their shotguns...(nope, never let 'em...) Those deer only had hay to eat, though...hay hay hay and nothing but skinny ol' fescue growing there at that....your doe will be much more flavorful. We even had a white deer...a buck...that was famous in the area. He came through once. Fantastic sight. Of course even the most avid hunter would not go for him. He looked like he came from a dream...glorious....sacred-looking....

Hey, chromedome...would love to hear the name of the restaurant if you feel like posting it...and would also love to hear your opinions on whether there are any differences between working for a woman chef rather than a man chef and also if you feel she had any particular extra hoops to jump in order to accomplish what she has...and if so, how she did that...

I am still curious and deeply interested in hearing from women in professional kitchens, but perhaps phrased my question wrong in asking for intensive discussion. May I ask if there are any women reading this forum who work in professional kitchens, or who have worked in professional kitchens so at least there is some sort of idea of 'who is out there'? As the article and the discussion are about women...gaining prominence in this particular workplace....it would be good to see if we are here in any sort of numbers in any way in the first place.

I wonder if there are any women reading....who have worked in professional kitchens (in any way, not neccesarily as 'chef')...who would like to share with us the things they liked and/or the things they disliked in the working environment, and what they thought about any eventual prospects that existed within that working world... that they could become a 'great chef'...and of course, why yes or why no....

Okay,Rogov....so let's see if I have the premise right. What you are saying (in taking up the question of why so few women are 'great chefs') is that you are hungry for a great meal. And that great meals are few and far between. Therefore, whomever is capable of it, should be attempting to make a great meal... And since women comprise somewhere around fifty percent of the population, they should be out there making these great meals too....through the vocation of Chef...so that these meals can be available to the public. I can accept that premise.

Bravo.... to your answer, Rogov. There is much to chew on here. And to muse on in between in order to taste what has been chewed. Will be back for more after this is digested....

This subject is so multi-layered that even in the initial attempts to sort it out, my brain feels like a Salman Rushdie novel (but without the sense of coherent organization that would hold the layers together). One thought comes to mind, though...as a start. This is a subject that will be difficult for many people to approach and discuss without risking offense to someone else unless the words are chosen incredibly carefully if one wishes to go beyond discussing it even superficially. And it seems to me....that for the most part, when presented with this question of "Why are so few women great chefs?"...many people would shrug their shoulders and say...."Who cares? It's not my problem..." What is it that makes you raise this question and subsequently in your reasoned argument, seemingly support and encourage the idea of more great women chefs, Rogov? Is it a simple question of fairness? Is it that you believe the existing system and what it offers would be enhanced by the addition of more women in these positions? If so, do you think they offer the same thing as men chefs or do you feel their offerings have a different sense or savor? Or is it something personal that you have seen or felt.... I am asking these questions to find the nugget of "Why should I care..." for those who might ask the question and then walk away...and also out of pure curiosity. It is unusual for a male person to be interested in the development of the female person in this particular way.

Rogov, I'm curious as to what you can tell us about the world of women chefs in Israel....your writings were initiated with 'France' in mind (unless I did not read closely enough which is always possible). Where does Israel stand both culturally and with actual perceived opportunities in this whole thing?

Did we finally agree on coffee or strong spirits, Lalitha? (You have given me a smile with imagining your totally imaginary piteous state...)

Why why why...GG? Why do you have to get us all going again... I have been really trying to not respond to this but you are making it impossible. ( ) To reduce the inane fervor that undoubtedly will ensue in my writing if I have to start, I'll limit my response initially to two questions. What parameters are we using here to define 'great chef'? Chef in a bistro? Chef in a temple of gastronomy? Is it neccesarily in Europe? Do we have the same sort of categories of chefs here in the States as holds in the more traditional Europe? Working chef? Executive chef? Chef-owner? That was question number one, by the way. Question number two. Who would you say America's most accomplished woman chef is? How many do we have? Who else is there on the list of known media chefs that is female? What percentage do these women comprise of all the 'great chefs' that are on the list, male and female? Is their number approximately equal to the same number of top successful women in other professions? That was question number two. At least here is a starting point. Something real and solid to work with and start the discussion. Please note that from my viewpoint, I don't care to be quoted academic studies nor journalistic ones. Of course other people may feel differently, but I would be more interested to hear what you all have seen and experienced with your own eyes, in your own life. Do I have a viewpoint as a female chef that left the business? (Not as a 'great' one mind you, but a successful one anyway). Sure. But it will be more interesting to hear the world of ideas on it all...

Shall we start the Dinosaur Club? I stay home to raise my children, too. Just me, one parent. Would not trade it for all the tea in China. Imagine, a gathering of Dinosaurs. We might actually manage to look impressive to onlookers....all standing together. Nothing like a group of determined mothers to make for a fearsome sight, huh?

Just might do that...it would replace in my mind the lost tripe sandwich which might not be available... Then I could return home with a new recipe to try on the kids!

All manufacturers of electric stoves should be not only jailed but tortured by being forced to cook for the entire jail population on their own stoves.

Me too. Wandering all over the place in search of...what??? I had an idea (which is mesmerizingly un-doable) of writing a thriller...there would be a first-person protagonist who throughout the narrative would be making ongoing attempts to kill in a number of novel ways...but the subject to be killed would be unnamed till the end. Who did the subject turn out to be? It turned out to be the extra pounds that make my tummy round rather than totally flat. Impossible premise in the first place, after the age of nineteen... but still I long to find a way to commit that murder....

These are marvellous descriptions of bounteous delicious food! Has the cuisine always been so abundant? I would have thought that the troubles within the country would have diminished both the availability and quality of food... It might be a difficult question to answer without wandering into the proscripted eGullet areas of politics and religion, but I hope you will try... Or of course, a simple yes or no would be an answer too! P.S. Everyone remembers that the great Nero Wolfe hails from that area...yes?

This photo is just plain too gorgeous. I want to lie in the field next to that beautiful thing...do let us know if the persimmon fudge recipe turns out good...that sounds like a bit of heaven....!

You are both brave and lucky, yum!