Carrot Top

Katherine, I understand all too well about women holding the family together. Trust me on this one. But bottom line, the 'people who understand his side' and not the other side are not only becoming fewer as time goes forward with small gains for fairness...but really, do they matter? If they do in any way, they should not. (And although this is really outside the scope of this thread, I must say my feelings are that his side/her side should not matter...the only thing that should matter is to best protect the children from the messes that adults can make.) As Eleanor Roosevelt said: "Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent." As for sociological forces beyond our control...sociology is the study of people in groups. Each person that does something affects the group, defining the overall pattern in which it operates. Therefore sociology is the study of us, and I do not feel like I am beyond my own control, and hope that nobody else feels this way about themselves either. We define our world. A category of academic study does not.

emilymarie...you don't sound naive to me...you sound very well informed. It really helps this discussion to have solid examples. Please, do share with us any more parts of your article or notes that you think are pertinent... And I am very glad that you enjoy the kitchen. Nothing can be more fun, and fulfilling, really, once the varied tests of survival are passed.

Well...there are only twenty-four hours in a day, aren't there. It seems rather disheartening, though...to talk of women or of men in terms of 'as a group'. It sort of places both an onus and a thought pattern upon the individuals in that group that is psychologically limiting. I would rather think of people as individuals...and forget about counting the numbers but rather look at the faces that rise either in happiness or pain. For an individual's contentment will not reside with what the group does...it will reside with what the individual does. If I say individual one more time, I will have to tape my mouth shut or take a nap.

:laugh:Very funny, that story about Keller.... And no, I don't think it occured to most women (in those days) that you could take advantage of the changing landscape by putting themselves in the kitchen rather than aiming for the corner office. Personally I landed there because it was a job, and I needed one. And to further complicate matters, my formal education only extended to the ninth grade. Still 'only' does, as a matter of fact.

Okay, here is where I got to in thinking about the question you posed,about women having equal 'fire in the belly' as men when it comes to using it to 'rise to the top', Busboy. You can look far back in history in the attempt to trace sources and uses of energies. Everyone knows the concept of yin/yang which has existed for tens of thousands of years...which in very general terms defines hot 'fire in the belly' sort of energy as masculine.... and cool, receiving, calming energy as feminine. And superfically (and perhaps sometimes not so superfically) the reasons for defining these energies into these separate sexed categories is obvious. What is important to remember though is that each of these energies resides within each of us. A man can love his children in a nurturing contented way...and a woman can have the urge to get out and do active not passive sorts of things. When I look at the idea of 'fire in the belly' I come up with four major places it can come from. 1. Testosterone. This is the most common place I see fire in the belly come from. It can be completely undirected, but it simply exists and affects whatever comes before it in time and place. Obviously men have more testosterone than women. 2. A fire in the belly that is taught. When I look at children (which I do a lot) I see some children that feel they can do not very much...or that they only can perform to a certain level. And usually if you look at their parents, you will hear their parents telling them this, in both big and small ways. So that is what they end up doing...exactly what is expected of them. On the other hand, I see children who are encouraged, who are given a sort of mythic idea that they CAN accomplish, that they CAN do whatever it is they want...and I see these children having fire in the belly. I see them growing big, and big inside. Note: This sort of thing is not the same as pushing a child. It somehow initializes itself differently and carries through differently. It is not pushing from the outside...it is encouraging from the inside. 3. It seems to me that fire in the belly in some ways must have a neurologic base also. It would not surprise me to learn that people who have fire in the belly have extra activity in some brain cell. ( That does not mean they have any other brain cells at all that work, but just that THAT brain cell is working overtime... ) 4. Fire in the belly...if it is not found in these ways in someone...can be grown. It can be self-grown. It starts with a seed of desire to do something well...to do something excellently and surpassingly...and then it needs to be self-tended by self-narrative. If it is true...that women do not have equal fire in the belly, for whatever reason...I think it can change if the desire is there to do so for a good personal reason. Just as it is possible for a man with a huge fire in his belly to tame it, for a good personal reason. That's all I can come up with, on this one.

I won't argue numbers, Busboy...yours sound accurate enough from my own general view. I don't really ever think about these things till someone brings it up in a fashion I can not ignore, as Gifted Gourmet did with this thread and with Rogov's article. No, again, Rogov should not be mau-mau'd. But again, this is really touchy stuff we are entering into discussing here, and understanding each other is not always easy, even when we speak the same language about simple things, and this is not a simple thing. About the 'fire in the belly'. Any person needs this to be 'successful' in the way we are talking about. Man or woman. There are other ways to be successful, this is only one. But to go out into the world of high stakes (in terms of money, egos, survival of businesses and people's livelihoods) and sort of aim for the top of the heap takes a fire in the belly. It is simply and extremely competitive. It may be clothed in the form of an iron fist in a velvet glove and fancied up pretty but it is jungle-like and it is warfare of a sort to see who wins the game. Lots of people want to win the game. Again, for the money, for the prestige, for the pride, for whatever. Some, just for the purpose of winning. When this game is in the form of a woman wishing to head a professional kitchen (and let us imagine that the intent of the woman is good and pure...let us assume she has a calling to do this sort of work), a kitchen with mostly men working in it, a kitchen where some of those men may have been working at their jobs close to the amount of years that she has been alive...she will need a bigger fire in the belly perhaps than a man walking into a similar game. She will be resented, questioned, tested, subtly tormented for having even assumed she could try this thing, and tripped up till she can prove herself. Some of these things could and do happen with a man who wants to aim to run a kitchen, too...but then again, he is one of the guys....and it is likely he will find a mentor...here or there, sooner or later. There is the physical aspect of the work that requires a bigger fire in the belly than it would for an average man, unless the woman is built like a man in terms of size and upper-body strength. In my case, I am 5'2 and sort of uh...delicately built. So there is this aspect to meet somehow....and I can assure you that when that thirty gallon mixer bowl needs to be poured into something else, the guys will be watching closely half-hoping you won't be able to do it. Is this nice? No. Is this life? Yes. That is why I say women need a fire in the belly if they want this. Is it fair to ask that they have a bigger fire than a guy, just to succeed? I don't think so. Well...that was in part an answer to your question as to whether there is an exogeneous factor. That is it, or part of it, in my view. The other exogeneous factor(s) would have to do with the ideas of a chef being considered a trade more than a profession in past years, and the lack of schools that would offer a woman the 'credentials' she might be made to feel she needed before she even walked in the door of a kitchen (whereas a man might have not been asked for equal credentials). Your next question....do women have less of this fire in the belly than men do? Sigh. Again, let me come back later for this one. This is a really tough one, isn't it.

Balance...can be as difficult a thing to attain in a person's life (or I should say some person's lives) as becoming a 'great woman chef'. It can be as elusive and possibly even moreso. Balance in life is a question of constantly fine-tuning. And if you want or need to bring other people into the equation, it becomes that much more difficult to fine-tune. I really do not want to keep having to use myself as an example, but there is no other way I can find to make this point as clear as possible. There is nothing that I have ever wanted more than a 'balanced' life...the idea of family, community, tradition. Yet it is not a life I was born into (some people do not come equipped with either families or capable parents to care for them) and much as I try, it keeps flip-flopping on me. Obviously my particular skill set is not in this area, though I hope to change this within this particular generation so that my children might have a better chance at it. My skill set seems to work best out in the world, doing stuff that takes 'narrow and intense focus' on my work. It is the only place I can say I have been fully successful. And to be successful is a good thing in life, for it creates joy within one which can then be given outwardly to others. So as a woman who is built this way, I would like to see some difficulties and barriers removed for other women who are built this way. For beyond the task of even doing the work in an atmosphere that often is not supportive...there is the fact that in real life, if you are this sort of person...beyond being admired momentarily when you land in an magazine article or whatever...you will not be generally 'liked'. Men will be taken aback and even women will look askance, when faced by this thing up close and personal. It would just be nice if the road were clearer for any woman who wants to succeed at a top level in this (or any) field of endeavor.

Busboy, you do like to jump into the middle of a potentially passionate debate, and I love that! Your questions are really good ones. Really good ones. For my own part, I want to think better of how to respond to them..I hope someone else jumps in before I get back though....yes, this could be fun

Mmm hmmm. I must admit, Sinclair...that when the question was first asked, of 'why are so few women great chefs?' that my immediate internal response was...'because they have better sense than to want that'....

Tell the truth, Susan. You were just taking another peek at that gorgeous hunk of meat and didn't want to admit it....

It sounds like you are enjoying this process...and I am sure I will enjoy the reading of it! Madhur Jaffrey is wonderful....and even if the recipe does not turn out perfect for whatever! reason...at least the house will be filled with wonderful aromas!

And I also must add, after editing the last post about four times for sheer clarity first and then futhermore to be sure nothing I said would truly offend anyone (which is almost impossible in life whether you open your mouth to speak or even if you do not) that attempting to communicate, particularly in writing....where you can not see a person's face to guess better at what their intent is...is mindboggling. It is amazing we manage to understand each other at all...it is really a small miracle.

Arielle...I am not so sure that Rogov's words were meant to be read with any sort of paternalistic essence...as a matter of fact, I believe the opposite. But we do have a problem here. Nobody wants to really get down and dirty and talk about this stuff, because we are all entrenched in it simply because of the fact that we are men or we are women. There is an 'us' and there is a 'them'. And one can get very touchy about this fact when personal liberties and choice (not to mention how one gets through simple daily life with dignity) are at stake. And there is a flip-side to everything. If we do not allow men to express their feelings (not talking about Rogov here, but talking more about men who disdain or dislike the changes they see with how women and the balances of power(s) are shifting) it will be kept inside simmering and very angry. And that gets nobody anywhere, for then there is a quiet war, a silent war there is no way to move through. Should it be that there is an 'us' and there is a 'them'? In many ways, no. We should all be one people. But if we were all one people, we would all be the same and much of the thrill of the essence of living would be gone. Besides, there would be nobody anyone had an urge to kiss. (Obviously, we are talking as if the world were entirely heterosexual, which it is not...please take these words as just a simple joke, people...) For a man to sit down and try to write about women empowering themselves is not only brave but it must be difficult. For the first question is ..."Is it his to talk about?". One could say no. But I say, anyone who has the guts to talk about it has had the guts to start a discussion which is sorely needed. He is a man and because of that, the way we read him as women is tinged with our own past experiences, histories, and thoughts. At the same time...if a woman had started this discussion, it would be regarded as being simply self-serving. So I thank Rogov. And I thank anyone who cares. The way we say things, the languages we speak, are all different. The point is to begin talking and keep thinking...for "dialogue is the oxygen of change", it seems to me..... and hopefully there will be something that will give good thought and maybe something new learned, to each of us upon reading and writing about things that matter.

StudentChefEclipse...I do agree with your analysis of the situation, but also believe that it is not schools that will create great women chefs, it is the women themselves. I do believe that even having schools that teach this as a 'profession' will move things forward in a positive manner to be sure. For in the past, many people entering the kitchen of a working restaurant went there for the purpose of simply having a job that would pay the bills, not with any idea of 'career' or profession in mind. If a woman in the past (let's say at least thirty years ago)(and perhaps even now) were to initially want to consider entering the professional world...with the intent of being considered a 'professional', it is likely that she would look to the more traditional sources that society has considered as professions in the past...i.e. medicine, law, business. The idea of 'chef' would not occur to her, possibly. Why would this be so? Because the idea of a 'profession' holds a sort of innate promise of a safe, well-mannered, educated workingplace....with controls in place to protect those who work there both financially and emotionally. Good pay leading to excellent pay would also be a criteria. Health insurance and other benefits would also be another criteria. These do not exist in many of the professional kitchens that exist, even today. As a matter of fact, when trying to think of a comparative position to the actual work that requires doing in many kitchens, the closest I could come was 'firefighter'. For that is what you end up going home feeling like.(And often looking like, too...) So here we have a profession...that does not hold some real, measurable benefits to one who would undertake it. Male or female, though at the moment we are talking about women. My personal experience is that I entered a professional kitchen as a completely self-taught cook, looking for a job that interested me, in 1978...those days when women were not often there. Fifteen years later I decided to leave the business...for my own personal reasons....but in that time I managed to attain the title of Executive Chef overseeing multiple facilities of different levels of food and service, some of those facilities geared to be 'run-of-mill' and some geared to be fine food. I successfully managed a staff of 150 employees and a nine million dollar budget annually and to my great joy have many 'thank you for a wonderful meal' letters in my portfolio from people whom society would consider 'heavy hitters'. It is not schools that will make women chefs, though they will help. It is not how society has changed and will continue to change that will make women chefs, though that will help. It is a fire in the belly that will make women chefs. It is a solid determination to cut through the crap and get out there and do it. It is being fearless in the face of tons of bullshit. It is facing up to the fact internally that it is a ton of bullshit you will face, and that you will just get out there and put your blinders on and do it. It is looking the big questions straight in the face and having good solid answers to them, for anyone that may ask. And having gotten to that point, there is nothing to worry about but the work. Worrying about how to fit in the other parts of a womans life is no small task. But let's face it...there are no guarantees in life for anything. You can place your bets as best you will, then wait to see what happens. And never...ever...let anyone tell you what you can or can't do, or how you should do it. Not even me, ha ha...!

I'm just walking up this path of discussion very slowly, and looking at each pebble of thought as it comes along. Obviously (or I hope obviously) I have very strong feelings about the fact that there seem to be less women in positions of being either 'great chefs' or even bringing it down a notch, women running professional kitchens whom hold the title of chef. It seems to me there is no one thing to blame, no one group to blame, no one anything to 'blame.' But there are causes, and therefore there should be solutions that can be approached with a view towards improving the situation. It is not enough for me...to be able to look at the excellent examples of successful great women chefs, and to say "They did it, therefore others can", although this is no small feat that they are standing there as examples. It seems there should be more than just the biographies or the statistics available, however. It seems there should be a cookbook on the subject. A book of recipes and discussion of how this was done. A taking apart of the finished product, breaking it down into which ingredients went into it and the techniques that were used to create this thing, this thing that we could use more of (again, my opinion only), the 'great woman chef'. I hope this thread will be able to approach that idea in some small way, and that some woman reading it whom wishes ideas or succor will find some small piece of that here...and that anyone else reading it will find upon reading a closer understanding of the subject....and that finally, the thoughts presented will do some one in some way some good. To my mind, it is a mare's nest that needs untangling.

Sort of like that word game where kids sit in a circle and each whisper the same single fact in the next one's ear... By the time the circle is finished and the fact is said out loud....voila! We have a different fact. So much information...coming out so fast in the various media(s). And incredible how carefully one needs to read it to even start to make an attempt to understand it, isn't it. Thanks for the reminder.

Here's a question...if anyone wants to talk. If not, then what the heck. My fingers need exercise and a good place to do it is on this keyboard. We are (or hope to be) discussing why so few women are 'great chefs'. So far the term 'great chefs' has been defined for use in this discussion. The next question I have is this: Is the daily work of being a chef, in the general everyday sense of the word, to be defined as being.... 1. A profession 2. A vocation 3. An occupation 4. A job, or 5. A trade Here are definitions of each of these words, from The American Heritage Dictionary: 'Profession'- An occupation, such as law, medicine, or engineering, that requires considerable training and specialized study. 'Vocation'- A regular occupation, especially one for which a person is particulary suited or qualified. 'Occupation'- An activity that serves as one's regular source of livelihood; a vocation. 'Job'- A regular activity performed in exchange for payment, especially as one's trade, occupation, or profession. 'Trade'- An occupation, especially one requiring skilled labor; craft; i.e.'the building trades including carpentry, masonry, plumbing and electrical installation.' Which category would you place the work of a chef in? Why? Has the definition (of either the word itself, or of the cultural standing of the type of work a chef performs) changed over the past thirty years or so? How, and why, if so?

Ahhh....I feel a Sanzaru Moment coming on.... It can be excused. After all, it is Saru Doshi. http://www.pghs.sa.edu.au/monkey6feb04.htm

I was informed last night that Starbucks has its own satellite radion station...now even driving in your car you can feel like you are there....

1910?...1911?...That First World War changed the world, didn't it. Including the horrific crime of totting out canned baked beans to start the day with... Wrong, wrong...yes. Wrong, even close to a hundred years later.... Excuse me, please...I must get my smoking jacket on and adjust my antimaccasar....

Only one fat doe?! Well at least it sounds like she is eating right. From my back deck where I used to live in West Virginia....you would see herds of fat does and an occasional buck...every day for months on end. People used to hit me up for the chance to sit on the deck of a quiet afternoon with their shotguns...(nope, never let 'em...) Those deer only had hay to eat, though...hay hay hay and nothing but skinny ol' fescue growing there at that....your doe will be much more flavorful. We even had a white deer...a buck...that was famous in the area. He came through once. Fantastic sight. Of course even the most avid hunter would not go for him. He looked like he came from a dream...glorious....sacred-looking....

Hey, chromedome...would love to hear the name of the restaurant if you feel like posting it...and would also love to hear your opinions on whether there are any differences between working for a woman chef rather than a man chef and also if you feel she had any particular extra hoops to jump in order to accomplish what she has...and if so, how she did that...

I am still curious and deeply interested in hearing from women in professional kitchens, but perhaps phrased my question wrong in asking for intensive discussion. May I ask if there are any women reading this forum who work in professional kitchens, or who have worked in professional kitchens so at least there is some sort of idea of 'who is out there'? As the article and the discussion are about women...gaining prominence in this particular workplace....it would be good to see if we are here in any sort of numbers in any way in the first place.

I wonder if there are any women reading....who have worked in professional kitchens (in any way, not neccesarily as 'chef')...who would like to share with us the things they liked and/or the things they disliked in the working environment, and what they thought about any eventual prospects that existed within that working world... that they could become a 'great chef'...and of course, why yes or why no....

Okay,Rogov....so let's see if I have the premise right. What you are saying (in taking up the question of why so few women are 'great chefs') is that you are hungry for a great meal. And that great meals are few and far between. Therefore, whomever is capable of it, should be attempting to make a great meal... And since women comprise somewhere around fifty percent of the population, they should be out there making these great meals too....through the vocation of Chef...so that these meals can be available to the public. I can accept that premise.