In search of the perfect pastry crust

[TrishCT]

This family recipe for pie crust is too good to keep to myself. It's my yankee New England mother-in-law's recipe and has won her accolades for years.

Although seemingly basic, it's unique in that you make a large batch of the dry ingredients/shortening and keep that mixture chilled till you are ready to make a pie. Then you measure the amount of dry ingredients you need and add ice cold water accordingly. Your dough is cold (because the shortening is cold) and good to roll out immediately -- no waiting.

Joan's Yankee New England Pie Crust

6 cups all purpose flour

2 teaspoons salt

2 1/3 cups shortening

Combine flour and salt, cut in half the shortening to make coarse crumbs. Cut in the remaining shortening. Place in an airtight container, store in refrigerator up to 2 months (or longer).

For a nine single crust inch pie:

Put 1 1/4 to 1 3/4 cups of the flour mixture in a mixing bowl. Add 2 to 3 tablespoons of ice cold water and stir to combine. Roll out crust immediately.

For double crust 9 inch pie:

Put 2 cups flour mixture in a mixing bowl and add 4 - 5 tablespoons ice cold water and stir to combine. Separate into 2 balls. Roll out crusts immediately.

[stovetop]

Wow; I am impressed with all the knowledge this site has with things pastry, there is a huge pool of resources and experiences that are bursting at the seems and exploding through my monitor and into my office

I can just taste all the pies that everyone is making; an inspiration to make one myself.

Thanks all

steve

[phaelon56]

I've been so humbled and overwhelmed by the flood of info that responding seemed futile

Not ready to make a pie again yet but tonight I'be whipping up a Fruit Frangiapane tart and will report back on the results. Half of my guests are vegetarian so lard will not be included but I will include some of the other hints and tips into my process. My only existing food processor is the mini FP attachment for my immersion blender. Works great for small stuff but not a big enough receptacle foa batch of dough. I'll try the knife and fork or two knife method for cutting the butter into the flour. Thanks again to all.

And - the crust on the pie I discussed in this article was tender but not flaky. There is a difference and a good crust can exhibit both qualities or so I think.

[ludja]

Not much to add to all the good advice already... but here's a few thoughts:

My go to piecrust is from Bill Neal's Southern Cooking-- half butter and half lard (good lard that you render yourself from pork fat or buy from a butcher, etc). Great flavor (for any filling) and tender and flakey. I wonder how the original recipe would improve just by substituting the Crisco for lard...

Definately chill everything down and use ice water (I usually cut butter into bigger pieces first and let chill with flour in bowl in fridge before cutting it in).

To incorporate the fat I really like to use a sturdy hand held pastry blender. It is less easy to over process the fat into too small pieces as one might do with a food processor. (A fork and knife are ok too, but I find the pastry blender easier to use and a worthwhile investment even if you aren't baking pies and biscuits every week...).

Edited July 15, 2004 by ludja (log)

[jgarner53]

To incorporate the fat I really like to use a sturdy hand held pastry blender. It is less easy to over process the fat into too small pieces as one might do with a food processor. (A fork and knife are ok too, but I find the pastry blender easier to use and a worthwhile investment even if you aren't baking pies and biscuits every week...).

I second Ludja's comment here. Before I learned/discovered using a food processor for my crusts (which I did for speed's sake as much as anything), I used a pastry blender, which is what my mom and her mom had used. I find that the kind that look like u-shaped blades works a little better than the wire kind, but either will do.

Such a great thread! Pies are one of my favorite desserts, and I love anything with crust: tart, quiche, you name it. And Sinclair's right - it's experience. My first crusts were tough nuggets of dough, and I was always trying to get my mom's homogenous mixture. Little did I know that you WANT those lumps of butter!

Another trick I picked up from an ex-boyfriend. His mom made her crust with vegetable oil (insert green, nauseated emoticon here), and rolled out the dough between two sheets of waxed paper. It's a crutch, I know, but then my dough isn't sticking to my counter or my rolling pin, and I don't need to add extra flour either.

[fiftydollars]

...Another trick I picked up from an ex-boyfriend. His mom made her crust with vegetable oil...

I'm sure everyone can agree that we're glad you got rid of that pervert...

[jgarner53]

I'm sure everyone can agree that we're glad you got rid of that pervert...

Mr. Garner would think so. And he calls me the Pie Queen.

[project]

No kidding, this is a great thread.

Likely fewer than 1% of the people that have made 'from scratch' pie crust have had such good advice.

For the recommendation to cut the fat into the flour until you have "peas", here is a clarification: Yes, maybe the larger pieces of fat coated with flour will look like peas. But, such peas will likely constitute less than half the total weight of what you have in your bowl. The rest of what is in the bowl will vary from pieces of fat smaller than peas down to loose nearly pure flour. So, my concern about the advice of mixing until "peas" is that not nearly all of the bowl contents will consist of such peas so that a novice looking for a bowl of peas might just keep mixing, never get a bowl of peas, and over mix the dough. If a way could be found to have nearly all the bowl contents peas, then this would likely be A+ quality mixing!

On the amount of water to add, you want the dough to be sticky enough to hold together. A dough that keeps cracking and breaking as you roll it out is too dry. For the amount of water to add, the recipe suggestions are good guidance but might be off by a little in a particular bowl due to variations in moisture of the flour.

If you add too much water and get the dough a little too wet, then the dough will tend to stick to your pastry board and rolling pin. In this case, just keep dusting the exterior surface with more flour. In effect you will get slightly more total weight of pie crust with a slightly lower proportion of fat; that is, no big harm done.

The recommendations for chilling the bowl, starting with a chilled mixture of flour, salt, and fat mixed possibly days before, chilling the dough just before rolling it out all likely can help. Such chilling might be more important in a hot kitchen or when using lard. But, with cold shortening, ice water, a cool kitchen, making the pie crust AWAY from the heat of the preheating oven, keeping heat of fingers away from the dough, and working quickly, 100 years of experience in my family (I believe that my father's mother was born in about 1871), good flaky pie crust that works well -- even directly with very wet fruit pies -- is fully reliably doable.

Using butter no doubt can give a better flavor. I only tried butter a few times; since I do not have my trial notes readily available on my computer, I can't easily comment on what I did wrong. I may have used clarified butter, but that is only a guess. People on this thread that have made butter work are good sources of information.

ludja mentioned a pastry blender. That is a relevant remark. The pastry blender I have consists of a (chrome plated or stainless steel) sheet metal U with a wooden handle joining the two top points. The bottom of the U consists of dull blades stamped from the sheet metal.

Some pastry blenders have wires instead of blades.

The idea of a pastry blender is to speed the 'cutting' of the fat into the flour.

So, we are supposed to use the blades to mash the fat and let the loose flour coat the mashed pieces of fat.

A pastry blender is faster than a knife and fork or two knives, but I fear that, especially for a novice, the results will be less good due to less precise control of the cutting, more 'mashing' instead of just cutting, and a risk of over mixing. Using two table knives is likely the slowest but, still, actually doesn't take very long; turn on the radio or TV or something, watch wildlife in the backyard, have your children do it, or some such. I believe that my father concluded that two knives gave the best results.

Also my pastry blender is a pain to clean: The handle is wooden, and long ago soaking caused the wood to swell and connections to become loose. I need to take the thing to the workshop and apply some epoxy, etc. In contrast, table knives and forks are much easier to clean!

My family's most common pie is apple. When Fall comes and there are terrific supplies of nicely tart cooking apples, a simple apple pie can be one of the best foods going.

My family just assembled the apple slices directly on the raw dough to become the bottom crust and didn't take special efforts to waterproof the dough, prebake the crust, or precook the apples into a 'filling', steps that might actually result in a better pie.

But the real glory of apple pie is the fresh tart apples, the sugar, the butter added with the apples, any nutmeg or cinnamon, and the flaky browned crust. The flavors are off the tops of the charts. Putting excellent vanilla ice cream on top of a slice should be illegal as overwhelming over stimulation of human sensibilities!

For including raisins, a crumb top crust, etc., they might be still better. But mostly people that have had the basic real thing will just rush to make it and eat it and not delay for anything 'more'!

My personal favorite is a cherry pie on those rare occasions when good fresh sour cherries are available.

Where my father grew up, the backyard, and elsewhere in the area, had apple trees and cheery trees. Pros and cons of various special apple varieties were common conversation. There were plenty of wild raspberries in the hills and plenty of game. The stream beside the house was choked with terrific watercress.

He did well financially: His father ran the general store, and his stepfather ran the feed and grain mill. In college during the Depression, he had an Auburn roadster, an Indian motorcycle, a bearskin coat and spent plenty of time bowling, playing cards, and dancing. He went on to office work but should have returned home and concentrated on local business and real estate and kept feasting on the local bounty!

[maxmillan]

Wow, lots more to consider when making pie crust. I will make one by hand and compare it to the one made from the food processor. Before getting my processor I would cut the fat into flour but the crust wasn't memorable but that was very long ago.

I bought a strange cylinderical glass bottle from an estate sale and was told that ice was put inside and it was used as a rolling pin. I haven't used it yet as I bought it for a conversation piece. I assume the ice would create condensation on the outside of the glass and render the crust too wet. But one could put their wooden rolling pin the the freezer.

For a savory pie, I have some bacon fat and was wondering if this might work for a meat pie?

[stovetop]

I saw my Grandma use chicken fat or rendered pork fat to make dough for meat pies. I guess on the farm you have to make your own shortening, rendering some kind of fat, probably your own butter too, that stuff probably made great pies.

Butter Fat Rules!!

stovetop

[Wendy DeBord]

Maxmillan-you don't need a cold rolling pin, room temp. is just fine. It only takes me seconds to roll out a crust.

I also don't use ice water, just cold tap water. The only thing that must be cold is your fat. I mix this up so quickly it doesn't get warm.

Just for the record I use 12 oz of dough for each pie layer.........since I make large batches I scale them out before freezing.

I've never owned a pastry blender, I'd guess you could over mix with this utensil. You can just cut up your butter on the counter like you do for other cooking processes (into tbsp's). Toss the butter chunks into your flour, then mix together with your hands. I break apart big clumps with my fingers and it's done........thats all there is to it.

I like the idea of having pie crust premixed and on hand but I have to think that it's ultimately not a good idea. Your flour will absord more moisture from the refidgerator and odors. This will play with how much water you'll need to hydrate your flour. I'd rather see you mix it all up at once, portion out and freeze your extras.

I've heard of people using all different types of fat.......I don't see why not. If you like that taste go for it.

Tender crusts have less gluten worked up, so they've been lightly handled. I'm not exactly certain what creates them.......it could be a couple factors.........could be a mealy crust which is closer to a short crust (like a shortbread cookie where your fat is binding your flour together).

Yesterday I had to whip together a couple apple pies (it's on my menu at work, one of my monthly specials and I didn't have any left in my freezer) and I didn't have time to chill them before baking. They looked beautiful going into the oven. Nicely domed with a generous amount of filling. My dough was still cold (I work pretty quick). Anyway after baking them as I always bake my pies.........I pulled them out of the oven-they looked great nice and full. THEN once they chilled out completely my filling did the great sink, pulling away from the top crust. It had been a long while since I'd baked a fruit pie I didn't pre-freeze and this only did another big confirmation for me: bake your fruit pies from a fozen state-the fruit won't over cook this way........it gives the best results. Baking a fresh fruit pie over cooks your filling before the crust is done.

Oh.........also rolling between wax paper or parchement paper is a great tool/trick. I do so with all my rolled cookie doughs. But for pie, I tend to think your being to careful..which leads to over worked crusts. Roll it out in as much flour as you need, then take a dry pastry brush and brush the excess flour off of it before placing it in your pan. Your crust isn't going to absorb that much flour-unless your crust is too wet and soft to begin with.

Project made another great point- your fat won't be all in consistant sizes. Pea size is what you aim for, but a few bits larger and smaller is fine.....it will look mostly like a bowl of flour with lumps of butter in it. It isn't a evenly consistant-don't even try to get it that way.

[KatieM]

Ditto this being a great thread! I actually have very strong opinions about pie, but none of them are new, so I'll mostly keep them to myself!

My mother is known as the "Pie Lady" in my small hometown in Illinois, so I learned how to make pies from a very early age. It's probably the pies that first fueled my passion for pastry. My mom gave me little jobs like stirring the sugar and cinnamon for the apples from as early as age two or three. So I learned how the dough should look and feel at every stage. And sometimes, how it should NOT look! As every pie baker knows, sometimes there are just some doozies! But you move on, and you make it again until you get it right. My mom's a strictly Crisco, flour, salt, water pie baker, and she never chills anything. She also uses a fork. Just one fork, and she spins the bowl while she's doing it. She too has very cold hands, but she also has Raynauds, so maybe that's the trick for good pies! Her crust is very tender, but not as flaky as some others I've tried. She also rolls her dough almost paper-thin. Somehow it always holds up, though.

When I grew up, and became more serious about baking, I started trying other crust recipes. I now use any number of different crusts, depending on what I'm using it for. If I have a dozen pies to make for a church supper, and I've only got 2 hours, I use all shortening. If I'm having a dinner party, and I know there will be foodies there, I'll use my "fancy" crust, which has butter and cream cheese in it. Honestly though, so few people even make pies anymore that any sort of homemade crust usually impresses people. So all of you should pat yourselves on the back for even trying! And really, as Wendy said, the best pies are always made by grandmothers because of the experience. So the best way to learn is just to do it.

In any case, I just wanted to submit my favorite cookbook of all time for those of you who are interested in pie. It's called "Pie Every Day", by Pat Willard. First of all, I think the title is a great philosophy. I would eat pie for breakfast every day if I could. Also, the book has a lot of great autobiographical stuff, and the American history of pies. So I actually curled up with it under a blanket on the couch and read it like a novel - with a cup of tea. That, to me, is the quality that a great cookbook should possess. It was actually this book that inspired me to write my own cookbook. Not all the recipes are perfect, but I can guarantee that if you've had a really awful week, nothing can fix it better than Hershey Bar Pie! Anyway, enough of my reviews of this book. Here's a link to an epicurious review for anyone who is interested.

Pie Every Day

Happy pie baking, all!

Katie

[achevres]

I have used Martha Stewart's Perfect Pie Crust for years and was happy with it. It's still good and fool-proof.

I always start in the food processor but don't over do it. You need to leave some fat visible if you want flaky pastry. I'm in the "no-Crisco" camp. initially, because I wanted my fat to contribute flavor, and lately because of the trans-fat issues. I would use lard, but the available one is partially-hydrogenated and making my own is more than I want to tackle.

Recently, out of curiosity, I tried Rose Levy Berenbaum's cream cheese pie dough and got rave reviews. Ms. Berenbaum stacks the deck by using cake flour, baking powder and vinegar, plus the cream cheese and butter. I can't explain all the food chemistry, but definitely try this recipe! (BTY, I use salted butter, because I like a little saltiness with the sweet filling and I think most dough recipes are too bland as written. Also, I used half cake flour and half all-purpose).

The recipe is in this link from Minnesota Public Radio's The Splendid Table:

The Best All-American Apple Pie with Flaky Cream Cheese Pie Crust

Edited for punctuation.

Edited July 16, 2004 by achevres (log)

[phaelon56]

I made my fruit tart last night and this morning but opted for a cream cheese based filling rather than Frangiapane. I didn't have lard handy but the recipe I decided to try for "sweet pastry crust" called only for butter. Remembering bits and pieces of the sound advice here.... I threw the butter in the freezer for a bit first along with the mixing bowl and the butter knives I planned to use to mix the flour and butter.

The recipe called for one lightly beaten egg to be mixed into 125 grams of butter along with 1/4 cup sugar. 1 1/2 cups flour along with a dash of salt are to be sifted (I have no sifter!) and then mixed loosely until pea size chunks are achieved. Instructions called for "blending" the butter and sugar until it was "fluffy". I chopped the butter and sugar together with cold knives and then used an elctric handmixer for a minute or so to get it a bit softer, then mixed in the flour. Did the cutting in mostly with knives. It was still too dry so I did have to add a tbsp or so of ice water but it came together nicely in a ball. Flattened in disc and threw wrapped in fridge for about 20 minutes. I know some have advised here that this is not necessary but I had clean up to do and it made things easier.

It rolled out beautifully and prebaked very nicely despite my screwing up (note to self: remembr to read instructions carefully!). It actually called for lining the raw crust in the tart pan with foil before putting the pie weights in place and prebaking. I forgot the foil and also let it bake a few minutes longer than necessary. It wa s trifle browner than light golden brown. Have not taste tested it yet but based on appearance it is way flakier than my previous attempt, despite the absence of lard or shortening.

This really is a great thread - I think I'm on my way to killer pies and tarts The fundamental tips about keping things really cold and ensuring that there are lumps of fat still in the raw dough are so helpful.

I wil report back on how well this one does on the Flake-O-Meter but I'm optimistic.

[ludja]

It's definately 'to each his own' re: how to incorporate the fat. It can be done well with a number of different techniques and tools. I guess the main theme has come through that with whichever method one uses, one is shooting for fat pieces that might seem larger than desirable to someone new to pie dough making and also to have the fat cold!

(I've made pie dough by hand, with two knives, a food processor and with a pastry blender and settled on the last as 'good for me' in accomplishing the desired end. I had a wire pastry blender and did not like that--it was flimsy and did kind of mash and push the butter around. My current one is more solid with blade-like sections--pretty close to what project described... but it's been holding up well so far!

[ludja]

1 1/2 cups flour along with a dash of salt are to be sifted (I have no sifter!) and then mixed loosely until pea size chunks are achieved.

It sure looks gorgeous! (as did your peach and blueberry pie...)

I think most commercial flours now typically don't have be sifted for most basic recipes b/c the there are usually really no lumps.

If you ever are in a situation to need to sift (confectionary sugar topping, etc) one can improvise by tapping through a sieve...

[ronnie_suburban]

Beautiful!

=R=

[judiu]

( ) Shame on you! Talking about a Hershey Bar Pie and not giving us a link? Outrageous!

[iguana]

This is a great thread-- Sinclair, I can't wait for your course on pie crust. I'm intrigued by the bake-from-freezer method. Do you find it works better for some fruits than others? I'm interested to see what oven temp you use. It certainly would be handy to have a pie or two in the freezer ready to bake!

We've covered crust recipes; anyone have any opinions on pie plates? I have an unglazed pie plate from Sassafrass. It gives the best bottom crusts-- browned and crisp, not soggy.

[bloviatrix]

Can someone please explain to me how to keep my dough round? I turn it 45 degrees after every pass, but I can't keep the damn shape.

[KatieM]

Recently, out of curiosity, I tried Rose Levy Berenbaum's cream cheese pie dough and got rave reviews.

I got The Pie and Pasty Bible for Christmas, and I also tried and loved this crust recipe. The only problem I have with it is that it's too fiddly when you need to make a ton of pies. But this is exactly what I was referring to when I said I make a "fancy" pie crust sometimes.

Shame on you! Talking about a Hershey Bar Pie and not giving us a link? Outrageous!

Sorry about that! I didn't mean to be mean! The Hershey Bar Pie recipe is in the Pie Every Day book, but since there's been a request for it, I'll give you the synapsis. Basically, you take one of those big fat Hershey bars and melt it down with 16 large, fresh marshmallows. Buy a new bag of them, don't use stale. Add a little milk to aid in melting and mixing. Cool mixture completely. Whip some cream and fold that in. Pour into graham cracker crust and chill. Cut small pieces, since large ones may cause sugar overload. This tastes like a big fat gooey s'more. I must warn you, though. This pie never sets up entirely. It's always going to be gooey. I make this pie whenever a friend of mine gets dumped. Also used to make it for sorority functions where we were all feeling like eating chocolate and shunning men. Anyway, hope you enjoy!

Katie

[phaelon56]

.... another big confirmation for me: bake your fruit pies from a frozen state-the fruit won't over cook this way........it gives the best results. Baking a fresh fruit pie over cooks your filling before the crust is done.....

Do you mean you pre-assemble the pie in the dish, freeze and then bake? Or... do you freeze the fruit and then assemble the pie using fresh dough and frozen fruit? Last question (I promise - at least until the next one ): when you freeze portioned batches of dough is it frozen in a flattened disc shape?

[therdogg]

Speaking of tender, do y'all find pastry flour works better than AP? I use a mix of unbleached AP and cake flour and I find it more tender than straight AP.

[Toliver]

I have no sifter!

You don't really need one. Use a fine to medium sieve and you should be okay. From what I understand, the intent of sifting is twofold: To remove any lumps/clumps of flour (rare nowadays) and to introduce air into the flour. A good sieve can perform both of these functions.

[snowangel]

.... another big confirmation for me: bake your fruit pies from a frozen state-the fruit won't over cook this way........it gives the best results. Baking a fresh fruit pie over cooks your filling before the crust is done.....

Do you mean you pre-assemble the pie in the dish, freeze and then bake? Or... do you freeze the fruit and then assemble the pie using fresh dough and frozen fruit? Last question (I promise - at least until the next one ): when you freeze portioned batches of dough is it frozen in a flattened disc shape?

I have great luck following some directions in a really old copy of the Farm Journal Pie cookbook when I have extra fresh fruit that we aren't going to use (usually peaches or rhubarb). What you do is put the fruit, sugar and a bit of thickener -- they recommend tapioca, which is what use -- into a foil liked pie pan, cover with more foil and then stick in the freezer. When it's frozen, remove from the pie tin. Put crust in pie pan when ready to make the pie, slide the frozen filling into the pan and bake.

They also recommend lard.

I flatten pie dough into a disk before freezing to save freezer space.

If you have fresh blueberries or raspberries, check out the recipes I put into RecipeGullet. They feature fresh fruit in a baked crust. They are the best way to treat these treats.