Dealing with problems at restaurants

[Jinmyo]

Well, I might be stupid and obnoxious. But at least I'm not an idiot.

[Jaymes]

Well, I might be stupid and obnoxious. But at least I'm not an idiot. 

Dr. Revenue will be the judge of that.

[Jinmyo]

True, Jaymes.

[jaybee]

Dstone, thatnks for all the words. I never heard them all.

Jaymes, I agree with your assessment. I think what we have here is a failure to communicate.

[Tonyfinch]

I think Jaymes's assessment is funny and clever and damn well spot on.

With friends like drrevenue...................

[Jaymes]

I was interested in seeing how a fairly sophisticated group of "professional diners" would react to this topic.

Golly - Thanks, Tony

I do find it interesting how Dr.$$$ first starts with the compliments.... and then gets all mad when he doesn't like our opinions.

I don't think he was ever really interested in what anyone else might think. He's just playing a game of "Virtual Red Rover" and hoping we'd all "come over."

But to paraphrase a popular saying: "Be careful what you ask for........."

[APPS411]

Drrevenue,

Quit your bitching and go eat somewhere else.

You obviously must be undecided on which party was wrong in this scenario or else you wouldn't have continued to reply to this thread.

If you have so much money that you were talking about, then go open your own damn restaurant and hire some chef who has no opinion who will beckon to your every need.

Your sound like one of those people that I can't stand. You know, the ones that tell the story of how badly they were treated to every freaking person they meet. I'de love to hear Hans side of the story. Maybe he thought that quail dish was very good. What's to say your taste supersedes his. Who the hell are you? He might have been really proud of that dish and had great feedback from other diner. Then you go and walk out like a know it all, drama queen, smuck and piss him off.

I was originally siding w/ you, feeling that you had been mistreated. But after that letter, I wouldn't speak or serve your ass anymore either.

Good luck in life w/ an attitude like that.

[Bux]

Let me take a side track here for a minute, especially as drrevenue is away from his computer on a trip. (I got that from one of his posts--and it appears to be an extended trip to France.).

APPS411, would you mind if I asked you a rather personal question? I'll be happy to back track and erase all mention of your name and my question if this is offensive to you--so, please don't anyone quote this if my question goes unasnwered. Simply put and without the implication that I am not in agreement with your feelings on this, would you have expressed yourself in quite the same words if your real name was attached to your post, or it you were speaking face to face to drrevenue, another anonymous poster, in a room full of other eGullet members who knew you?

We've allowed members to register under aliases, because several members offered what seemed like valid reasons for not participating unless they could so anonymously. Most of our thread have remained respectful and it's not been a problem, but when I see this sort of post, I wonder if we'd be not only more civil, but a better group it we had to be ourselves here and not our evil twin brothers and sisters. Please don't take this personally APPS411, I am well aware that things went off track in the civility department when drrevenue referred to those who disagreed with him as "idiots."

[jaybee]

We've had many discussions touching on this, most recently the thread Bux started:

The customer is always right ..., except when he's an idiot

Before continuing to crucify Dr. revenue for calling Shaw an idiot, please note it was not he who used this characterization first.

Now here we have Dr. Rev. all hopped up with indignation because he feels blown off by a chef who he thought cared about him. He airs his greivance and reveals the extent of his anger, and is attacked as an egotistical hothead, and FG implies that he might be an idiot. So he replies in kind.

Going back to the original grievance, I don;t know how wel Has speaks English, but I have dealt with enough Englush-speaking Germans to know that "Dissappointed in your reaction" could have been his way of saying "Dissappointed that you were unhappy."

The word "in" is the key one here. Dr. Revenue chose to interpret it literally as vernacular English. If Hans speaks perfect vernacular English, then he may have a point. But it is more likely he was saying "Im sorry" in cluncky English.

But I can tell you that I am so tired of being ripped off and served poorly by American industry--airlines, car rental places, credit card companies, utilities, you name it, that I don't smile and take it any more. These people run their bullshit ads telling us how they want to serve us and how much they care, and then when it comes time to deliver real service, they treat you like a replaceable commodity. Howard Beale had it right when he told people to lift their windows and yell "I'm mad as hell and won't take it anymore."

When I get shit treatment from some company or business, I go to the CEO, the owner, the boss, and tell him what happened. More often than not, I get more than an apology.

I get my money back and some gesture meant to make amends. Recently, Amex gave me a $200 credit when I wrote to Ken Chenault about shabby treatment I received. RCN Cable sent a repair crew to my house on the weekend to fix a problem they had refused to fix, once I contacted their CEO via email.

While I am not suggesting rudeness, and I think Dr, revenue could have gotten more nileage from a more artfully worded letter, I understand his reaction. Though I think he might have checked first to make sure that his German "friend" was not really blowing him off with poor English.

[Suzanne F]

Damn, I had to scroll through a lot of really interesting posts to get to this point. I really will have to go back and read them carefully.

The only reason I skipped down here was to be snotty to Deacon:

Ok, fair enough. I think I have an even better analogy. How about:

You've paid to see a certain symphony conducted by a certain conductor. On the night you were to attend, the conductor is not conducting. The management assures you that the symphony will be composed of the same musicians as always, playing their usual program, but with no one at the podium. Are you justified in thinking that perhaps the experience you came for will not be provided?

Uh, uh. Wrong again. That ain't how it works. If there is normally a conductor, there will be a conductor -- in this case, probably an assistant who worked with the famous (wo)man to prepare the orchestra for the performance. There would not NOT be a conductor (unless the orchestra is one like Orpheus, which never has a conductor.) I imagine you would have been one of the folks who walked out of Leonard Bernstein's substitution for Bruno Walter (or was it Mitropoulis?), conducting the NY Philharmonic, or Michael Tilson Thomas's subbing for William Steinberg with the BSO.

Oh, and as for your first analogy: what do you think of Maceo Parker?

[Fat Guy]

In addition, it's not as though the conductor is magically playing the instruments by telekenesis on the night of the performance. It's all about the rehearsals. That's where the conductor puts an individual stamp on the composition. On performance night the conductor is there mostly for show, but in reality he's doing about as much as the director of a play waiting in the wings. God help the orchestra if they actually need a conductor at that point.

[Bux]

We've had many discussions touching on this, most recently the thread Bux started:

The customer is always right ..., except when he's an idiot

Before continuing to crucify Dr. revenue for calling Shaw an idiot, please note it was not he who used this characterization first.

If members truly believe that post enouraged the use of ad hominem responses, I apologize. I really trust you understand the difference between the use of the word to attack one's critics in a public discussion and my editorial use for the sake of humor. I furthermore trust that all members don't think I think only idiots are wrong. As for disputes between restaurants and diners, I've said from time to time that from what I've seen, the customer is wrong at least as often as the restaurant.

To put this in context, here's the thread in which my "idiot" appeared in the heading

[Steve Plotnicki]

You guys are still talking about this? As Steve Klc and a few others (including me) so aptly put it in the other thread;

1. When we go to a restaurant we have certain expectations

2. Those expectations include the type of food and who is preparing it

3. There are other secondary characteristics that are important to diners like the wine list and the service. And to some diners those are the primary issues.

4. If a restaurant doesn't substantially deliver on those promises then you have gotten something you didn't bargain for.

The question then becomes, What should be done about it? It seems to me that the answer is different with each diner. Some diners have a close relationship with a restaurant and some people have the most casual relationship. In this instance it sounds like the diner had a very close relationship. How can anyone criticize him when they can't gauge his relationship? Some people feel they are good enough customers that any and all omissions makes them feel they have been mistreated. And further to that, not receieving an apology when voicing a complaint seems a little odd. Normally a restaurant apologizes regardless of what happened. That it didn't happen here, is pretty unusual given the circumstances. And I believe that many of the same people here who are complaining about drrevenue being egotistical, would be fuming if they went to Rockenwagner for dinner, had a horrible meal and then found out it was because the chefs weren't on hand. In otherwords, everyone is being pretty free with drrevenue's money. But if it was their own.....

[Fat Guy]

You guys are still talking about this?

I shouldn't be, but I'm still always a little surprised when the pot calls the kettle black.

[LaNiña]

In addition, it's not as though the conductor is magically playing the instruments by telekenesis on the night of the performance. It's all about the rehearsals. That's where the conductor puts an individual stamp on the composition. On performance night the conductor is there mostly for show, but in reality he's doing about as much as the director of a play waiting in the wings. God help the orchestra if they actually need a conductor at that point.

FG, forgive me, but that is utterly untrue. A good orchestra, when matched with a good conductor, provides a *performance* that can be exquisite. Yes, of course rehearsal matters, but the magic that happens in a live performance of that kind is a function of the communication between conductor and orchestra *in that moment* .

The same can even be said of a great chef. Even when the great chef is in the restaurant, he/she can have an off night. Hasn't that happened to you - no matter how many times that chef has made the dish, no matter how trained the kitchen staff - sometimes there is an inspiration that just isn't there.

If that weren't true, then *everybody* could be a great chef just by following a recipe, and every orchestra could turn in a flawless performance if enough rehearsing had been done.

There is magic to a live performance, just as there is to the preparing of a great dish - something extra, something impossible to quite nail down, something that only happens when it happens.

And that is the truly ephemeral experience of art, as experienced by an audience, or an appreciative and aware eater.

(Can anybody tell what kind of weekend I had?)

[Steve Plotnicki]

Nina - Thank you for that. It took a few hundred posts for someone to say it. If it was so easy, everyone would be a great chef or a great conductor. And as well, you have fingered the "magical" element that makes us go to see a great conductor or a great chef. We are trying to be present when they hit a high that only they can hit.

[Fat Guy]

Prove it.

[Steve Plotnicki]

That's an easy one. If you like the band Aerosmith, would you go to see a cover band who did a great job performing their songs? Or would you go see the real thing?

[LaNiña]

Prove it.

I can only "prove it" by telling you experientially. That I have been in the same restaurant, over and over again, had the same dish, and sometimes it's just *there* . And the same can be said of musical performances. I have seen the Beethoven Violin Concerto performed by the same groups, with the same soloists, over and over again - or the same opera, with the same conductor - and sometimes something just *happens.* It's in the communication between art and artist, between chef and ingredients, between performer and audience, between kitchen and diner.

It's called SOUL.

And if you say you don't understand what I"m talking about, I won't believe you.

[Fat Guy]

I know exactly what you're talking about and I think it's a bunch of mystical hocus-pocus mumbo-jumbo that you can't prove because it's not true. You and Plotnicki both need to spend some time in a kitchen -- one meal service is all it will take to change your minds. As far as classical music performances are concerned, I've never been in an orchestra at a level higher than high school so I can't speak from personal experience on the performance side. On the audience side, I've experienced better and worse performances and don't believe for a second that it's been because some guy waved his baton a certain way on the night of the performance. But if a professional musician backs you up I'll concede that point, not that it has anything to do with what goes on in a restaurant kitchen -- another episode in the annals of bad analogies.

[LaNiña]

I know exactly what you're talking about and I think it's a bunch of mystical hocus-pocus mumbo-jumbo that you can't prove because it's not true. You and Plotnicki both need to spend some time in a kitchen -- one meal service is all it will take to change your minds. As far as classical music performances are concerned, I've never been in an orchestra at a level higher than high school so I can't speak from personal experience on the performance side. On the audience side, I've experienced better and worse performances and don't believe for a second that it's been because some guy waved his baton a certain way on the night of the performance.

You need to spend some more time in concert halls. And you need to do some reading on the subject of musical directorship/conducting.

It's not just me and Plotnicki. I don't know any serious eater, or listener of music, who hasn't had this kind of experience (besides you, maybe).

It can't be "proven" - only experienced. And the need to analyze, to impose scientific methods on these kinds of situations only serves to diminish the experience.

Live a little.

[glenn]

This place is a nuthouse.

And yes, I love the Beach Boys but I did go to see the Fez' inhouse cover band doing a tribute. [pot, black -- very funny!] I hope y'all see the relevance in this.

[Fat Guy]

It can't be "proven" - only experienced.  And the need to analyze, to impose scientific methods on these kinds of situations only serves to diminish the experience.

That, my dear, is known as a copout.

[mikeczyz]

Having been a violinist in different orchestras for the past 15+ years, I can assure you that the conductor is not rendered irrelevant on the night of the performance as FG would have us all believe. It's been posted on egullet before about how some terrific dishes are created under the stress of the service, and how well some of these improvisatory dishes work. the same happens in concert performances. it's true that most of the work has been done in rehearsal (tempos, dynamics, voicing, conducting a section in cut time instead of the usual meter etc...) but maybe on the night of the performance, the conductor thinks the orchestra could play a section a little faster, maybe he gives the oboe soloist a little more freedom...it's these little differences that can turn a pedestrian performance into something magical. music is always developing. I just read george solti's memoirs (known mostly for his tenure as the music director of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra) and he wrote about how his interpretations were always changing. while solti's changes happened over the course of years, smaller changes can also occur on the night of a performance

mike

[LaNiña]

It can't be "proven" - only experienced.  And the need to analyze, to impose scientific methods on these kinds of situations only serves to diminish the experience.

That, my dear, is known as a copout.

No, my darling FG, that's called FEELING.