The Sourdough Starter Topic

[gfron1]

I found that my starter had peaks and valleys for about 9 months of regular feeding before now when it is completely stable as long I do my part. Work toward consistency and that means dumping or baking - I vote for the latter which may turn into a side business.

[cmflick]

I found that my starter had peaks and valleys for about 9 months of regular feeding before now when it is completely stable as long I do my part.  Work toward consistency and that means dumping or baking - I vote for the latter which may turn into a side business.

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One of my starters has been going strong for about 18 years now. It always seems to revive quickly and is very active. It hasn't sat in the refrigerator for longer than about a month or two between uses. What I have found is that it has become less sour over the years. I have a second starter that I just started last fall and it is very sour. I wonder if the sour-producing Lactobacilli die out with long term maintenace and refrigeration.

[Stephanie Brim]

I was bound and determined to have a sourdough starter going by the end of this month. I'd tried 3 times before with no luck, so I decided to go with a recipe that someone else started.

The first day you mix together 1/4 cup rye flour with 1/8 cup water and set it on the counter. The second day you mix another 1/4 rye flour and 1/8 cup water. The third day I did 1/4 cup rye flour and 1/8 cup water again. This is all without discarding anything. After the third day, I left it alone until I started to see bubbles. On the 5th day I discarded all but 1/4 cup of my starter and mixed 1/4 water and 1/2 cup flour (a mix of 1/4 rye and 3/4 unbleached bread flour. I kept on with the rye/bread mix until I was getting good growth, after which I started feeding only unbleached bread flour. It's been about 3 weeks total since I started and I've been baking bread for about a week. I can control the sour with how much starter I use, how it's built up for use in the bread (stiff, paste, or liquid), how much I use in the recipe (I've been making up my own recipes as well), and how long I let it rise for the bulk ferment.

On my blog at http://mentalexperimental.org you can see the fruits of the first couple of my labors. The breads I've made so far with this starter have turned out to be incredibly tasty.

You can imagine how happy I am with it.

You don't really need high temperatures to make a good sourdough. My temperatures are 70F and lower in this kitchen in the winter. Rye flour works very well. I've never mixed commercial yeast in with it. My favorite bread is this one, which my boyfriend has been using for sandwiches at work all week.

Coming to sourdough has been a challenge, but it worked out well in the end. I have a happy, healthy starter now.

[annecros]

I have a plain starter and a rye starter in residence in my fridge that are well established. As a firm believer in frugality, I cringe when it is time to feed, and the discarded starter ends up on the compost pile, or ANOTHER batch of pancakes!

I know it's only a nickel or a dime or so - but I would really like to use the good stuff to better effect.

Am I correct in assuming that I can just adjust the flour and water quantities in a quick bread recipe, and use the quantity of starter for flavor? Should make a wicked good blueberry muffin.

Do you have any favorite ways of using up this precious stuff?

Thanks in advance.

[slkinsey]

One of the most important things to understand about sourdough is that there is no reason to maintain a starter that's any larger than around a quarter cup. All you are doing is perpetuating the culture.

[weinoo]

Do you have any favorite ways of using up this precious stuff?

Thanks in advance.

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Nah, mine goes right down the drain. You can always foist some starter on an

unsuspecting individual.

[gfron1]

My answer is to bake more If you want to address frugality or moral issues then sell your daily bakings and donate the money to a good cause, or find a non-profit that can use the bread to feed kids or something. OR to answer your question more directly, I toss a bit of mine in waffles on most Sundays. Okay, I've helped you with a tablespoon of the stuff, the other 10 gallons is for someone else to deal with.

[Lisa Shock]

I only maintain about a half cup of starter and do just fine making one pizza and one loaf of bread each week.

[sanrensho]

I regularly make muffins, banana bread and sometimes waffles with old or refreshed sourdough starter. All are very good on their own merits--really, I'm not just saying that.

I usually maintain less than 1/2 cup of sourdough starter in the fridge. I typically only build enough starter to make bread once a week or so, plus a little extra to store for the next batch. I haven't thrown out any starter in a very long time (since I first built the starter).

I personally don't see the need for endless builds and refreshing. I find my results are perfectly acceptable and predictable using 1-2 week old starter. It only takes longer for the initial build and mixed dough to rise.

Edited February 19, 2009 by sanrensho (log)

[MikeJ]

So, if you only keep half a cup of starter, do you just use that amount to make a preferment and then build it into a loaf?

[weinoo]

So, if you only keep half a cup of starter, do you just use that amount to make a preferment and then build it into a loaf?

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You really have to refresh the starter before building it into a preferment...so the 1/2 cup you keep in the fridge comes out, most of it is poured off, and then you can refresh it with 8 oz. flour and about 8 oz. of water. It's ready in maybe 6 or more hours. Or, it may need to be refed, depending on how often you use it.

Now you have active starter to use as you wish.

[sanrensho]

So, if you only keep half a cup of starter, do you just use that amount to make a preferment and then build it into a loaf?

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Yes, 50 g starter + 175 g water + 175 g flour (400 g total) the evening before. My house is unusually cool so the refreshed starter (preferment) is usually ready in about <18 hours to build into a loaf.

I build 375 g into a loaf and have less than 25 g refreshed start as leftover. I can either refresh that again to build extra starter for baking, or stir in a small quantity of water/flour and let the starter slowly refresh in the fridge for next week's bake.

So I usually have two containers in the fridge--my starter, and extra starter reserved for muffins, quick breads, etc.

Also, my standard challah recipe is commercial yeast-based but uses old sourdough starter--RLB's new favorite traditional challah. Another excellent use for extra starter.

Edited February 19, 2009 by sanrensho (log)

[slkinsey]

I think it is best to think of your "storage starter" as though it is an envelope of yeast.

Maintain the smallest amount possible. I keep mine at around 25 grams each of flour and water. When it comes time to refresh the starter, I empty out the entire jar. The small amount that remains clinging to the sides is more than enough to inoculate the fresh flour/water mixture and perpetuate the culture (in fact, this creates optimal conditions for yeast and bacterial growth).

When you want to make some bread, you can then make up whatever amount of "starter" or "chef" or "biga" or "sponge" or "pre-ferment" or whatever it is that you want to have and is specified in the recipe you are using. Then just toss in a tablespoon or so of active culture from your "storage starter," wait until the new "starter" or "chef" or "biga" or "sponge" or "pre-ferment" or whatever becomes active, and proceed as regular. The tablespoon of "storage starter" is analogous to putting in a pinch of commercial yeast to make a "starter" or "chef" or "biga" or "sponge" or "pre-ferment" or whatever.

[MikeJ]

My concern with using that small an amount of starter would be that the lactobacilli wouldn't be able to produce enough acid to make the final loaf sour. Do you find that that's the case?

[slkinsey]

sanrensho: Feeding your starter by adding a small amount of flour/water to a larger amount of pre-existing starter is actually the worst possible thing you can do for both perpetuating the starter culture (this will eventually encourage other yeast and bacteria more tolerant of the low pH to take over the culture) and also for optimum growth/health characteristic of the microflora you are taking care of. You want to feed by high dilution. The amount of "new food" you put in should be equal to at least 5 times the weight of the "old starter" you hold back -- and preferably more.

[sanrensho]

Then just toss in a tablespoon or so of active culture from your "storage starter," wait until the new "starter" or "chef" or "biga" or "sponge" or "pre-ferment" or whatever becomes active, and proceed as regular.  The tablespoon of "storage starter" is analogous to putting in a pinch of commercial yeast to make a "starter" or "chef" or "biga" or "sponge" or "pre-ferment" or whatever.

This is an excellent analogy, and exactly the approach I use.

The only difference for me is that I always build a little extra preferment to reserve as my storage starter, and also feed again when it goes into the fridge.

[slkinsey]

My concern with using that small an amount of starter would be that the lactobacilli wouldn't be able to produce enough acid to make the final loaf sour.  Do you find that that's the case?

You can use the "storage starter" to make a larger amount of any kind of starter you want.

Let's say your recipe calls for two cups of starter. That's way more than you have in your "storage starter," right? No problem. Just mix together the amount of flour and water you would need to make two cups of starter (according to the proportions specified in the recipe you are using) and put in a tablespoon of your storage starter. This will inoculate the flour and water mixture with the microflora from your starter culture. Keep in mind that sourdough contains something like 10,000,000 to 1,000,000,000 microorganisms per gram of dough. So that tablespoon contains a lot of your starter macroorganisms. Wait for the flour/water mixture to become nice and bubbly (and you can speed this process up by putting it in the oven with the light turned on) and you now have two cups of active "starter." Now you may proceed as usual.

One great advantage to this method is that it allows you to use a much wider variety of sourdough recipes. One thing I find is that sourdough recipe books often have widely different instructions for how the starter should be constituted and used. So, if you're using a Nancy Silverton recipe and you don't happen do constitute your starter exactly the way Nancy does hers, it's difficult to figure out how to make her recipes work. My way, you can make up a "one time" batch of Nancy's starter, inoculate it with your starter culture, wait for it to activate, and proceed with the recipe without any guesswork.

Personally, I don't often bother with this step. I just make the dough with a very small inoculum, and let it rise for a really long time.

Edited February 19, 2009 by slkinsey (log)

[sanrensho]

sanrensho: Feeding your starter by adding a small amount of flour/water to a larger amount of pre-existing starter is actually the worst possible thing you can do for both perpetuating the starter culture

I think you misunderstood me. I always shoot for a low percentage of inoculant (less than 20%). I learned that here, possibly from one of your posts.

Edited February 19, 2009 by sanrensho (log)

[slkinsey]

Ah, I misunderstood. You wrote "I have less than 25 g refreshed start as leftover. I can . . . stir in a small quantity of water/flour and let the starter slowly refresh in the fridge" -- which I took to mean that you were adding perhaps a smaller amount to the 25 grams. You'd actually be adding something like to 50 grams each of flour and water to this in order to have a 20% inoculum, right?

[sanrensho]

My concern with using that small an amount of starter would be that the lactobacilli wouldn't be able to produce enough acid to make the final loaf sour.  Do you find that that's the case?

Practically speaking, I find that it's sour enough *for me*. But I'm not shooting for an SF-style sourdough bread, just a wild yeast loaf.

[MikeJ]

My concern with using that small an amount of starter would be that the lactobacilli wouldn't be able to produce enough acid to make the final loaf sour.  Do you find that that's the case?

You can use the "storage starter" to make a larger amount of any kind of starter you want.

Let's say your recipe calls for two cups of starter. That's way more than you have in your "storage starter," right? No problem. Just mix together the amount of flour and water you would need to make two cups of starter (according to the proportions specified in the recipe you are using) and put in a tablespoon of your storage starter. This will inoculate the flour and water mixture with the microflora from your starter culture. Keep in mind that sourdough contains something like 10,000,000 to 1,000,000,000 microorganisms per gram of dough. So that tablespoon contains a lot of your starter macroorganisms. Wait for the flour/water mixture to become nice and bubbly (and you can speed this process up by putting it in the oven with the light turned on) and you now have two cups of active "starter." Now you may proceed as usual.

Personally, I don't often bother with this step. I just make the dough with a very small inoculum, and let it rise for a really long time.

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How long would that be? I keep hearing different things about rising time - Rose Levy Beranbaum says something like 9-10 hours in the Bread Bible, others say however long it takes to double, while jackal10 maintains that loaves are often overproofed by the time they've doubled.

[slkinsey]

I have adapted my sourdough baking around my work schedule. Most often I make up the dough just before I go to bed, with a very small percentage inoculum (e.g., perhaps 25 grams of 50/50 in a loaf that will eventually have 500 grams of flour and 350 grams of water total). I then let this rise overnight (in the oven with the light on if it's cold weather). It is usually quite well risen by morning. I then shape the loaves, put them into the banneton, inside a plastic bag, and then into the refrigerator. I bake when I get home from work perhaps 9.5 hours later.

[sanrensho]

Ah, I misunderstood.  You wrote "I have less than 25 g refreshed start as leftover. I can . . .  stir in a small quantity of water/flour and let the starter slowly refresh in the fridge" -- which I took to mean that you were adding perhaps a smaller amount to the 25 grams.  You'd actually be adding something like to 50 grams each of flour and water to this in order to have a 20% inoculum, right?

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OK, I can see how my statement might have been construed that way.

In reality, I always end up with less than 25 g left over, probably due to a certain amount of evaporation. Basically a teaspoon or two still clinging to the bowl. I mix that with 50-75 g each of water and flour, then pop it into the fridge as my most recently refreshed storage starter. So yes, less than 20% inoculant.

Edited February 19, 2009 by sanrensho (log)

[abooja]

Do the same rules apply if one maintains a stiff starter? In other words, keep just the one or two tablespoons of starter in cold storage, inoculate with a small amount each time and wait as long as it takes for it to rise? Is a stiff starter as active as a wet one? Also, is it more difficult to integrate a stiff starter into any old recipe than it is a wet starter? I've done it both ways, but my wet starter experiments from a couple of years ago were not terribly thorough. I can now, more or less, feel my way through the process -- adding more flour or water to achieve the consistency I want -- but wish it were less haphazard, and the results more predictable.

[slkinsey]

If you are maintaining a very small "storage starter" it is best at around 50/50 by weight. I don't see any advantages to maintaining a stiff starter in this context, and several disadvantages.