The Sourdough Starter Topic

[jonnyCinco]

Ah, I guess I am confused as to where the wild yeast comes from. I had read on using honey, grapes and raisins to provide the base, and figured that you were cultivating the yeast from them for your sponge. You are saying though that the yeast is coming from another source, and that I could just start using flour and water?

Thanks for the time in helping me understand this

[slkinsey]

You might want to have a read through this thread. More technical/scientific information as to sourdough cultures here.

Edited June 5, 2008 by slkinsey (log)

[Alcuin]

Ah, I guess I am confused as to where the wild yeast comes from.  I had read on using honey, grapes and raisins to provide the base, and figured that you were cultivating the yeast from them for your sponge.  You are saying though that the yeast is coming from another source, and that I could just start using flour and water?

Thanks for the time in helping me understand this

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There's actually wild yeast all over the place. Starting with things like juniper berries or grapes takes advantage of the yeast that is on them. Yeast is also just floating around in the air too though, so as Slkinsey says, you don't really need to use anything but flour and water. The yeast will be attracted to it as a food source and will set up shop there. All you have to do take care of them at that point.

Set up equal parts flour and water and let it sit for a day. Come back to it and if you start to see some activity and it starts to smell yeasty, discard half of the flour/water/yeast mixture and at least double it with fresh flour/water. Do this for a couple more days and you should have a starter that you can maintain indefinitely.

You can use berries that naturally have yeast on them but you don't have to. Some people think that helps to kick start the process and they might be right, but it's just as easy to do it without them. Using honey would only provide some sugar for the yeast to eat, but they're probably just as happy unlocking the sugars from the flour. Using brewer's yeast puts you in the position of having the yeast in your control rather than waiting for them to be attracted to the flour/water. You don't really have to do this, though, but it would certainly be easier than waiting.

[judec]

You can also use whole rye / wheat flour to get a culture started. There's a lot of wild yeasts on whole grains.

[Scott Koue]

Since you have a brewers supply near you ask them for yeast used in the Belgian wit beers and the like. They probably also have some sour "wild" yeast around also. There is a whole group of beers that are soured with wild yeast. That would at least get you started in the right direction. Brewers yeast won't as a rule taste much different than bakers yeast. The ones used for some of the Belgian beers though should be very different.

[judec]

There is a whole group of beers that are soured with wild yeast.

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Sounds like lambics. They're left to ferment in open air and gets sourness from lactic acid bacteria. It might be the same class of yeasts that gives sourdough its tang.

[slkinsey]

The "tang" of sourdough bread doesn't come from yeast. It comes from lactic acid-producing bacteria. Lactic acid-priducing bacteria are also responsible for the sourness of lambic beers, but these are different strains. The bacteria in lambic beers are Lactobacillus delbrukii and Pediococcus damnosus, whereas the bacteria in a sourdough are other strains such as Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis.

Edited June 5, 2008 by slkinsey (log)

[jonnyCinco]

Thanks slkinsey I appreciate the help I will try starting this tonight. Also the thread you linked me to was exactly what I needed, I just missed it not knowing the terms to search for.

[concordal]

When it comes to re-culturing sourdough in a new location there seem to be two schools of thought.

One group says that local bacteria will take over and, although you still have sourdough, it no longer has the same characteristics. This group has such members as Jeffrey Hamelman, director of the baking education center for King Arthur Flour, who has been quoted as saying "Local bugs join the party, and before long you've got Lactobacillus newyorkensis." Also, Peter Reinhart, author of The Bread Baker's Apprentice says "... the organisms indigenous to your region will gradually take charge ... a starter made from a seed culture imported from Egypt or Russia will, over time, produce bread that tastes like a starter made locally from scratch."

The other group maintains that the sourdough culture, being a mixture of yeasts and lactobacilli bacteria, when cultured properly will reproduce identical yeasts and bacteria. This group has contenders like Ed Wood, author of Classic Sourdoughs.

What has the experience of eGullet members been?

[Nawtees]

This is very interesting. I need to know. Next to chocolate, I adore sourdough bread. Very high on my list. My mother had her own restaurant and could bake anything. But, she was very reluctant to even "go there" with sourdough. She totally believed that a new location would mean a different taste and loss of the taste that she adored in San Francisco. I hate to admit it, but for all that she dared to do with her life, she always dissuaded us from even trying to make sourdough bread! That is a real shame. However, perhaps this, too, will be something I won't wait for the new year to get started on.

Any input from those of you that are bread makers would be greatly appreciated!

Edited October 28, 2008 by Nawtees (log)

[andiesenji]

I have tried many sourdough cultures over the 29 years I lived in the San Fernando valley and in the last twenty years I have lived here in the high desert of the Antelope valley in southern California.

I have purchased several of Ed Wood's sourdough cultures from different parts of the world as well as culturing my own and sourdoughs from other people's starters.

It is true that they will morph over a period of a few months into something quite different from what they were in the beginning. Not to say that this is terrible, just that you can't expect to produce a truly San Francisco type sourdough if you live in other areas.

The climate, the atmosphere and possibly the latitude and longitude or the imaginary "ley lines" the witchy types write and speak of, might have an effect on the creatures that produce the chemicals that flavor and leaven the dough.

I kept one starter going for many years and it was given to me by a friend's dad who lived in Placerville, CA in the Mother Lode country and swore that he had kept the starter going since it had been given to him some thirty years before.

It was quite active and fairly sour when I first began using it but after about four or five months it was much milder but remained quite vigorous. After I moved up here to the desert it changed again and had more of the sour taste it had originally.

Following the '94 earthquake we lost power for a few days and I tossed it and most of the other stuff in my fridge.

Of the sourdough starters from Ed Wood, the one that maintained its integrity the longest was the Bahrain culture. It started out very sour and remained so for almost a year.

So, my solution has been to keep a culture going until I notice that I am no longer getting the result I desire, dump it and order another starter and start all over again.

In fact I am ready to place an order any day now, when I can decide which one I want to try next.

I am leaning toward giving the South African a trial because it is said to leaven whole wheat flour better than regular flour and ideal for people like me who like to grind their own grain.

Edited October 28, 2008 by andiesenji (log)

[thegreatdane]

It's my experience with sourdough that it acclimates to your environment as the local gang of wild yeast takes over. As in all fermentation, the yeast creates alcohol and CO2, then the bacteria jump in and create acetic acid, or the sour flavor you may like. If you feed it regularly, and make bread frequently, the culture stays very active. It can go dormant in the refrigerator over time but can be revived by getting back to a regular feeding schedule. And, if you want the bread to taste more sour, let the bacteria kick in as you proof the actual dough. Everyone everywhere should enjoy making sourdough bread from little more than water, flour, and a bit of salt, which retards the yeast. Have fun!

[abooja]

I read through the first 3-1/2 pages of this thread and decided I had to post before reading further.

I created a starter in August of 2007, two apartments ago, using the much loathed organic grape method. I didn't know any better at the time and, hey, it worked, so didn't think much of it. I used it in various failed attempts at sourdough no knead bread. Failed, primarily, because the starter was never particularly vigorous, I didn't refresh it terribly well before using it and didn't proof the final loaves long enough. I managed to feed it once every few weeks, primarily because I had named it (Froderick) and was attached to the idea, but rarely used it. Until this week, the last time and only time I had successfully used it, in fact, was almost a year ago for pain au levain breads from Jeffrey Hamelman's book.

Fast forward to this week. We moved here around three months ago, and Froderick naturally moved with us. By now, he was this frightening looking mess in the back of the fridge, long ago separated and topped with a very brown hooch. I hadn't fed him in many months, at least six. I kept thinking of it, but put it off until this week. I figured he was probably long dead, but when I opened the container and it smelled perfectly good, I decided to try reviving him. I poured off all the hooch and scraped off all the beige material from the tops and sides of the container, leaving behind less than an inch high thickness of creamy colored, thick, dry paste, nothing like the thick, elastic levain I left behind. (I had long ago converted him from liquid to solid.) I added equal amounts (unmeasured, the first time around) of bread flour and bottled water, mixed, and put him back in his now clean container, proofed in the microwave in which I had just boiled some water.

Imagine my surprise when, just a few hours later, some signs of life seemed to emerge. After a day, when it was clear he was still kicking, I fed him again. And again. And now, just three days later, he is more vigorous and active than ever. I mean, seriously so. I mixed the basic sourdough bread recipe from The Bread Bible, expecting to wait the full 3-4 hours for the final proof, as RLB suggests, and returned to my loaf two hours later (also in the microwave) to learn that it had already overproofed. I baked it anyway, expecting a large hockey puck, but it was surprisingly edible and full of holes. I refreshed it again today, with the expectation of replacing the failed loaf (I also mixed up some Cook's Illustrated no-knead bread last night, with yeast, just in case.) It looks like I didn't need to. It's not a perfect loaf, but it has great crust and the perfect amount (for me) of sour flavor.

Today's refreshment rose to more than double in less than three hours. Is that typical? I was so amazed at how active this starter has suddenly become that I questioned my husband as to whether or not he took pity on me and secretly added commercial yeast to the mixture. Fortunately, he has no idea how to even do that, so I guess it's all Frody and the alchemy of sourdough. So freaking cool.

Edited January 26, 2009 by abooja (log)

[gfron1]

I found that my starter had peaks and valleys for about 9 months of regular feeding before now when it is completely stable as long I do my part. Work toward consistency and that means dumping or baking - I vote for the latter which may turn into a side business.

[cmflick]

I found that my starter had peaks and valleys for about 9 months of regular feeding before now when it is completely stable as long I do my part.  Work toward consistency and that means dumping or baking - I vote for the latter which may turn into a side business.

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One of my starters has been going strong for about 18 years now. It always seems to revive quickly and is very active. It hasn't sat in the refrigerator for longer than about a month or two between uses. What I have found is that it has become less sour over the years. I have a second starter that I just started last fall and it is very sour. I wonder if the sour-producing Lactobacilli die out with long term maintenace and refrigeration.

[Stephanie Brim]

I was bound and determined to have a sourdough starter going by the end of this month. I'd tried 3 times before with no luck, so I decided to go with a recipe that someone else started.

The first day you mix together 1/4 cup rye flour with 1/8 cup water and set it on the counter. The second day you mix another 1/4 rye flour and 1/8 cup water. The third day I did 1/4 cup rye flour and 1/8 cup water again. This is all without discarding anything. After the third day, I left it alone until I started to see bubbles. On the 5th day I discarded all but 1/4 cup of my starter and mixed 1/4 water and 1/2 cup flour (a mix of 1/4 rye and 3/4 unbleached bread flour. I kept on with the rye/bread mix until I was getting good growth, after which I started feeding only unbleached bread flour. It's been about 3 weeks total since I started and I've been baking bread for about a week. I can control the sour with how much starter I use, how it's built up for use in the bread (stiff, paste, or liquid), how much I use in the recipe (I've been making up my own recipes as well), and how long I let it rise for the bulk ferment.

On my blog at http://mentalexperimental.org you can see the fruits of the first couple of my labors. The breads I've made so far with this starter have turned out to be incredibly tasty.

You can imagine how happy I am with it.

You don't really need high temperatures to make a good sourdough. My temperatures are 70F and lower in this kitchen in the winter. Rye flour works very well. I've never mixed commercial yeast in with it. My favorite bread is this one, which my boyfriend has been using for sandwiches at work all week.

Coming to sourdough has been a challenge, but it worked out well in the end. I have a happy, healthy starter now.

[annecros]

I have a plain starter and a rye starter in residence in my fridge that are well established. As a firm believer in frugality, I cringe when it is time to feed, and the discarded starter ends up on the compost pile, or ANOTHER batch of pancakes!

I know it's only a nickel or a dime or so - but I would really like to use the good stuff to better effect.

Am I correct in assuming that I can just adjust the flour and water quantities in a quick bread recipe, and use the quantity of starter for flavor? Should make a wicked good blueberry muffin.

Do you have any favorite ways of using up this precious stuff?

Thanks in advance.

[slkinsey]

One of the most important things to understand about sourdough is that there is no reason to maintain a starter that's any larger than around a quarter cup. All you are doing is perpetuating the culture.

[weinoo]

Do you have any favorite ways of using up this precious stuff?

Thanks in advance.

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Nah, mine goes right down the drain. You can always foist some starter on an

unsuspecting individual.

[gfron1]

My answer is to bake more If you want to address frugality or moral issues then sell your daily bakings and donate the money to a good cause, or find a non-profit that can use the bread to feed kids or something. OR to answer your question more directly, I toss a bit of mine in waffles on most Sundays. Okay, I've helped you with a tablespoon of the stuff, the other 10 gallons is for someone else to deal with.

[Lisa Shock]

I only maintain about a half cup of starter and do just fine making one pizza and one loaf of bread each week.

[sanrensho]

I regularly make muffins, banana bread and sometimes waffles with old or refreshed sourdough starter. All are very good on their own merits--really, I'm not just saying that.

I usually maintain less than 1/2 cup of sourdough starter in the fridge. I typically only build enough starter to make bread once a week or so, plus a little extra to store for the next batch. I haven't thrown out any starter in a very long time (since I first built the starter).

I personally don't see the need for endless builds and refreshing. I find my results are perfectly acceptable and predictable using 1-2 week old starter. It only takes longer for the initial build and mixed dough to rise.

Edited February 19, 2009 by sanrensho (log)

[MikeJ]

So, if you only keep half a cup of starter, do you just use that amount to make a preferment and then build it into a loaf?

[weinoo]

So, if you only keep half a cup of starter, do you just use that amount to make a preferment and then build it into a loaf?

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You really have to refresh the starter before building it into a preferment...so the 1/2 cup you keep in the fridge comes out, most of it is poured off, and then you can refresh it with 8 oz. flour and about 8 oz. of water. It's ready in maybe 6 or more hours. Or, it may need to be refed, depending on how often you use it.

Now you have active starter to use as you wish.

[sanrensho]

So, if you only keep half a cup of starter, do you just use that amount to make a preferment and then build it into a loaf?

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Yes, 50 g starter + 175 g water + 175 g flour (400 g total) the evening before. My house is unusually cool so the refreshed starter (preferment) is usually ready in about <18 hours to build into a loaf.

I build 375 g into a loaf and have less than 25 g refreshed start as leftover. I can either refresh that again to build extra starter for baking, or stir in a small quantity of water/flour and let the starter slowly refresh in the fridge for next week's bake.

So I usually have two containers in the fridge--my starter, and extra starter reserved for muffins, quick breads, etc.

Also, my standard challah recipe is commercial yeast-based but uses old sourdough starter--RLB's new favorite traditional challah. Another excellent use for extra starter.

Edited February 19, 2009 by sanrensho (log)