The Sourdough Starter Topic

[gfron1]

I decided it was time to post about the juniper berry sourdough. I'm doing this before I was ready because I think it needs some help. Once I make my first loaf, I'll start a new topic for the countless juniper berry fans out there - and then I'll tell the full dramatic story that got me to this day

Here's what I started with (getting to these is the story for later)

I followed hummingbirdkiss' directions on making the starter. Then using The Bread Bible as my guide, here's the slurry after 1 day...

And 2 days later it seemed like things were going well...

I didn't feed it for the first 4 days - just let it bubble. It had a good sour smell going, but a bit different from traditional starters I have made. I poured off the alcohol and started on the Bread Bible proportions. We're now two and a half weeks later. Its barely bubbling - I can't tell if its the yeast or bubbles caused by my gentle stirring. The smell is much softer than before - barely sour. This whole time I've had it covered with saran wrap with holes cut in the top. I could post a pic, but it just looks like pancake batter at this point. Suggestions?

[jackal10]

just wait, and leave it in a warm place.

The foreign yeasts you introduced with the berries have eaten the available sugars, not you have to let the real lactobacteria and acid tolerant yeast symbiosis develop

[gfron1]

Do I keep feeding it or just let it go wild? And I assume I keep pouring off the alcohol as it develops.

[hummingbirdkiss]

Do I keep feeding it or just let it go wild?  And I assume I keep pouring off the alcohol as it develops.

←

how does it smell it looks done to me! I would just take some out and try to use it! then feed it and store it for a while ...

it looks perfectly good to me!

but I am still a nube!

Edited July 28, 2007 by hummingbirdkiss (log)

[Lkfarkas]

What happened to my starter?

I had a great starter going, had it in the fridge for awhile, brought it out, fed it for a week or two (daily), and then one day fed it with whole wheat flour. (I was out of AP) Since then (probably a week or two?), I've fed it with AP. It's not as active as it was - bubbles come, smells okay, but it's not frothy, nor does it have bubbles actively rising to the surface & breaking. I do have bubbles - but they're not "bubbling", if that makes any sense. It smells okay, but just doesn't get "puffy". What gives? I did dump out a good bit of it, and did replenish with plenty of AP flour.....what happened?

Thanks!

[jackal10]

Do I keep feeding it or just let it go wild?  And I assume I keep pouring off the alcohol as it develops.

←

Just leave it in a warm place. There is plenty of food there until its active

The liquid layer is just the flour particles settling out, Stir it back together if it bothers you

[jackal10]

What happened to my starter?

I had a great starter going, had it in the fridge for awhile, brought it out, fed it for a week or two (daily), and then one day fed it with whole wheat flour. (I was out of AP) Since then (probably a week or two?), I've fed it with AP. It's not as active as it was - bubbles come, smells okay, but it's not frothy, nor does it have bubbles actively rising to the surface & breaking. I do have bubbles - but they're not "bubbling", if that makes any sense. It smells okay, but just doesn't get "puffy". What gives? I did dump out a good bit of it, and did replenish with plenty of AP flour.....what happened?

Thanks!

←

My guess is you changed the viscosity since the wholewheat adsorbs a different amount of water, Just keep feeding the AP, and let if ferment in a warm place and it will come back

[Lkfarkas]

Ooh. I think that's a good guess. Hrm. I did notice that my starter seems a bit thicker, and when I fed it today, I added a bit more water. Also, I'm in the middle of making a loaf, and the dough seems heavier in texture, too. Grrr. Can't blame the starter, though - my scale went nuts in the middle of weighing my flour. *sigh* So, I think I've got too much flour in there. Anyway...thanks for the "guess"!

[pastrygirl]

I'm a pastry chef more into plated desserts, but my new job requires baking lots of different breads and developing recipes for multiple locations.

I have a couple of recipes that use a biga starter that are successful, but I'm concerned about consistency using the biga day 1 vs. day 3. I've been trying to get a sourdough starter going, but this morning I decided it wasn't happening and threw it away. My question is, can I just use the biga as a jumping-off point for sourdough and feed it? Can/should I add old biga to the fresh batch to enhance the flavor, or should I stick with making a fresh biga every 3 days? Making it fresh seems to work fine, I'm just looking for ways to make better bread. I do add yeast to the breads also, and although I would like to do a slow rise, space and educating my staff are issues, so I'm depending on the pre-fermented starter to add complexity.

If I do get a sourdough starter going, is there any point in keeping both sourdough and biga starters, or is one enough? I'm inclined to just use one, unless there's a compelling reason to keep two cambros of fermenting goo in my reach-in.

Thanks!

Andrea

[gfron1]

HERE is some light reading while those in the know respond.

[devlin]

I'm not sure whether I'll be addressing your questions completely or correctly, but here's my off the cuff response.

First, if you're using a biga over three days, it should be refreshed probably the 2nd day, which, at least in my experience, will keep it more viable than simply starting a biga on day one and letting it sit the next day and then using it on day three.

There's that.

As for biga versus sourdough, I guess my first question is whether you mean biga with commercial yeast. Because if you're going to simply convert a commercially yeasted biga to a sourdough culture,... well... I don't know that that's the way to go. And in fact I'd just say, No. Don't do that.

Bigas are meant to be started ahead of the actual bread making, refreshed over time depending on the length of the fermentation time frame you want, and then used as part of the final dough (with perhaps a bit of the dough saved for the next batch, but I've never actually used the "old dough" method myself).

Sourdough cultures, on the other hand, are living creatures you maintain for as long as you want to maintain them.

For me, bigas are fine. Use a commercially yeasted biga for better flavor in your yeasted breads; or use your sourdough culture as a sort of biga/preferment for your sourdoughs.

But sourdough cultures are an entirely different animal. Or sort of. You can use a sourdough culture as a biga, but you can't use a commercially yeasted biga for a an actual sourdough culture.

In terms of maintenance, you have to pay attention to the sourdough in a way that you don't have to with the biga, because the biga is a short-term method, whereas the sourdough is a method that takes the place of commercial yeast and you have to feed it for it to continue to live. The biga? You make one and use it. Done. The sourdough culture? You marry it.

[alanamoana]

if you're concerned about flavor development and don't want to commit to a sourdough starter, you can always use the old dough method that devlin mentioned above. save some of the dough from the batch you've just made and use that to start your dough the next day. this way, you don't even need to worry about the biga. a more experienced baker (anyone?) can explain proportions, etc.

[jackal10]

I use a stiff sourdough culture, 50% hydration (twice as much flour as water by weight). I think it gives a better flavour than the more liquid versions.

Ideally find a baker with an established culture and borrow some to start. Personally I find them easy to maintain - just leave in a covered jar in the fridge between baking sessions

To start your own starter, if you cant borrow one, mix equal quantities of flour and water (use bottled water if yours is chlorinated). Nothing else, No grapes, raisins, old boots or anything. Leave in a WARM (28-30C/82-86F place. Temperature is important to make sure you get the right bugs. After a few days to a week or so it should be bubbly. It will separate into two layers, just stir them together. Throw out two thirds and replace with equal quantities by weight of flour and water. Leave in the warm place for a day. Repeat. That is your basic starter,

You can now make your biga

Take a tablespoon of his starter (10g) and mix with 8oz of flour and 4oz of water. Knead until mixed (5mins), and then leave in the warm place for 12-24 hours (overnight). That is the mother sponge, you can keep in a jar in the fridge.

To bake repeat the last step with a tablespoon of the mother to make the biga. When the jar of mother is looking a bit empty make a double batch of biga and save half.

[pastrygirl]

Yes, commercial yeast.

Devlin, if I can refresh the biga once, why can't I just keep refreshing it? Because the yeast would eventually exhaust itself after it got too diluted? The old dough method sounds easiest, I used to do that with my pizza dough, I was considering that too. Will it work for pumpernickel? I have a recipe from the previous PC that everybody loves that I need to keep.

I generally avoid commitment, maybe that is why I'm apprehensive about sourdough and impatient with bread in general...nurturing it, getting to know it ...takes too much time, I just want to get something in the oven!

[devlin]

Yes, commercial yeast. 

Devlin, if I can refresh the biga once, why can't I just keep refreshing it?  Because the yeast would eventually exhaust itself after it got too diluted?  The old dough method sounds easiest, I used to do that with my pizza dough, I was considering that too.  Will it work for pumpernickel?  I have a recipe from the previous PC that everybody loves that I need to keep.

I generally avoid commitment, maybe that is why I'm apprehensive about sourdough and impatient with bread in general...nurturing it, getting to know it ...takes too much time, I just want to get something in the oven!

←

My experience is that refreshing a commercially yeasted biga multiple times will only take you so far and then it starts to degrade, losing strength and becoming intolerably boozy or alchohol tasting. I'm assuming that's normal, otherwise it would be another alternative for bread bakers who are committed to fabulous bread. I've never heard of anybody having any success doing that.

But I'm having a little trouble understanding why you are reluctant to maintain a sourdough culture if you're interested in doing essentially the same thing with a biga. Why not just start a sourdough culture instead (or buy one)? Or, alternatively, why not just whip up a biga for single uses? Or maybe I'm not understanding what you mean. Surely maintaining a biga in the way you suggest would take more commitment than simply making single-use bigas, and at the same time, it's also is pretty much what you'd do if you were maintaining a sourdough culture.

So, I'm a little stumped in that regard.

I'm assuming the old dough would work in a pumpernickel. Like all traditional breads, pumpernickel was originally made without commerical yeast.

If I were you? I'd experiment with your ideas and see where it takes you. If you're reluctant to play and experiment, you're going to continue to make breads the way you're making them now, and which you seem to want to move beyond. There's no getting around experimenting when it comes to learning how to make really good breads. I know you're looking for a quick fix and fast way to know how to do it, but I don't think it's actually possible.

Also, it occurs to me you're thinking maintaining and using a sourdough culture is complicated and time consuming/labor intensive and difficult, which it's really not, once you learn how to use one. But again, it's a thing you have to commit to in order to learn how to do it. Once you learn how, it's actually not any more difficult than making a biga or making a bread with commercial yeast.

Edited November 11, 2007 by devlin (log)

[jackal10]

The problem with maintaining any culture for long periods is that the side products - alcohol, acid, and off flavours tend to accumulate.

Thats why it is necessary to refresh it from time to time by taking a small amount of culture into a large amount of flour and water - I use 10g stater to 200g flour and 100g water. Essentially you are making a new biga, so if you are using commercial yeast you might as well use new yeast and avoid any contamination...

Edited November 11, 2007 by jackal10 (log)

[qrn]

HEREis everything you need about s/d

Bud

[Terrasanct]

I recently began a new starter, after years of not having one. It's the right time of year for bread baking. I asked my husband what kind of bread he wanted me to make a few weeks ago, and he said, "Sourdough." I had to explain it wasn't that simple.

But not that complicated, either, at least not the way I do it. I'm fascinated by how people will use so many things for a starter, and wonder if anyone here has made different kinds and compared the end result? I've always just made a starter with water, flour, and a bit of yeast. I don't think the yeast is "cheating" because it loses its potency soon enough and is replaced by all the wild yeasts in my kitchen.

I was talking to a chef the other day who was a recipe tester for Reinhart, and she said that making sourdough starter with grapes was a stupid idea and that you had to use raisins. There seems to be a lot of chauvinism about this whole sourdough issue. I make good breads with mine, but I'm just making them for me.

Oh, and my old starter was always named Ethyl, for obvious reasons.

[Sergio]

Last year, before graduating and moving away from Berkeley, I collected two sourdough starters from bakeries that I loved and had special significance for me during my years there. I abided by the instructions for feeding and kept them alive for a few months, but after moving again, I had all but abandoned them in the back of the fridge. As expected, both seem to have the greyish appearance and a pool of liquid. I have read in a few places that it is possible to revive a starter after long periods of inactivity, but before I do that, I have two questions:

1. What would be the best procedure to bring them back to a healthy vibrant state? Should I just follow the instructions from each bakery for normal feeding until it appears back to normal, or is there a special treatment for neglected starters?

2. Once I have revived them, would they return back to their original states, or somehow be morphed into something different? Has anyone else had similar experience with reviving starters and remembers the qualities it had before and after?

[jackal10]

Last year, before graduating and moving away from Berkeley, I collected two sourdough starters from bakeries that I loved and had special significance for me during my years there. I abided by the instructions for feeding and kept them alive for a few months, but after moving again, I had all but abandoned them in the back of the fridge. As expected, both seem to have the greyish appearance and a pool of liquid. I have read in a few places that it is possible to revive a starter after long periods of inactivity, but before I do that, I have two questions:

1. What would be the best procedure to bring them back to a healthy vibrant state? Should I just follow the instructions from each bakery for normal feeding until it appears back to normal, or is there a special treatment for neglected starters?

2. Once I have revived them, would they return back to their original states, or somehow be morphed into something different? Has anyone else had similar experience with reviving starters and remembers the qualities it had before and after?

←

Just follow the normal instructions.

1, To un-seperate the hooch (liquid) stir them back together, or just use starter from the lower part

2. A lot of acid and other by products will have accumulated in the culture that you may not want to carry over. I would revive them bu taking only a tablespoonful of starter to ssay 100g (4oz) of flour and 40z of water. Stir togeher and leave covered in a warm place (27C/86F) for 12 hours or until active, then use as fresh starter,

[devlin]

Last year, before graduating and moving away from Berkeley, I collected two sourdough starters from bakeries that I loved and had special significance for me during my years there. I abided by the instructions for feeding and kept them alive for a few months, but after moving again, I had all but abandoned them in the back of the fridge. As expected, both seem to have the greyish appearance and a pool of liquid. I have read in a few places that it is possible to revive a starter after long periods of inactivity, but before I do that, I have two questions:

1. What would be the best procedure to bring them back to a healthy vibrant state? Should I just follow the instructions from each bakery for normal feeding until it appears back to normal, or is there a special treatment for neglected starters?

2. Once I have revived them, would they return back to their original states, or somehow be morphed into something different? Has anyone else had similar experience with reviving starters and remembers the qualities it had before and after?

←

You could just mix the stuff up and refresh as usual. But if I were you, and I had a culture that had been sitting around inactive for some time, I'd want to give it a wash first, maybe even for several days in a row, before starting back up as usual.

The way you'd do that is to mix what you have very thoroughly, dump everything except 1 cup of the culture (or keep some in reserve just in case), add a couple cups warm water (roughly 80-85 degrees) and mix thoroughly, then dump everything but one cup once again, feed as usual (I use 3/4 cup water and 1 cup flour), stir very vigorously once again and then proof for 6 to 12 hours.

I learned this from Ed Wood's Classic Sourdoughs, and it works beautifully. If I'm on a baking hiatus, for example, and the culture's been sitting for awhile, or even if I've simply been refreshing and baking as usual over the course of many months, the culture often becomes more overpowering in flavor or more acidic or more sour than I'd prefer, and so I routinely wash my culture to restore it to a softer, lovelier, "breadier" smelling thing. And actually, I'll repeat that procedure for several days in a row before I simply go back to refreshing as usual. Don't despair if the culture appears weak for a couple of weeks. That's normal.

Edited May 10, 2008 by devlin (log)

[jonnyCinco]

Hi I am new to bread baking (only been at it for about 4 weeks now) and was wanting to start my own yeast strain so I could avoid using instant dry yeast some of the time. So my question is it possible to use beer yeast from my local brew supply store to start a good yeast culture for bread?

If no one has tried this before I will probably give it a shot anyways and see what happens.

[mydogbites2]

It works, I have done this many times... You may have to add a little sugar or honey to your sponge to kick start it, but it works none the less.

Good luck.

[jonnyCinco]

Thanks for the quick reply. I will give it a go this weekend.

[slkinsey]

FYI: All this will do is give you a false sense of security in starting the culture, as you will see some activity from the commercial yeast for the first several cycles. Eventually these yeasts will die out and, if everything goes right, be replaced by a symbiotic culture of wild yeast and lactobacilli. All that "starting" a culture with beer yeast or bread yeast or juniper berries or grapes or honey or whatever does is delay the inevitable. Considering that the inevitable is what you want anyway, why not simply start with flour and water?