Have we become too "matchy"?

[Brad Ballinger]

Okay, at the risk of incurring wrath from fellow oenophiles, yes we are too matchy. Similarly, we are also too foody. That's why this entire web site exists.

I think just about anything can be taken to the extreme, and the extremists support doing so while others scratch their heads. We need to realize that those of us who come to this web site, this forum, and others like it elsewhere in cyberspace are an incredibly small part of the poplulation. I'm sure plenty of people think we're over the edge just because we have this site bookmarked. And within this Society, we're going to get even more statrified in terms of geekiness with whatever topic -- wine, beer, pastry cooking, cookware, etc.

Edited to add: There are plenty who would comment that the fact we're devoting 50+ replies to this topic is nuts.

But now to the particular topic realizing where we are. Personally, I do think we agonize too much over just the right wine with just the right food. I do not think there are perfect pairings, and the only way to get close is to taste the food first, and then see what wines work better than others. But from a word-only description of menu items, and a word-only description of either general characteristics of a certain type of wine or tasting notes open to subjectivity of the person writing them, I'm happy if a pairing is simply in the ballpark. I can enjoy both the food and the wine if I don't over-analyze it and put pressure on myself to be perfect.

I can understand a perspective, though, that factors in how much we pay for certain wines. I can understand not wanting to pay restaurant markups and then have a wine and food mismatch. Even so, there is still plenty of room to make safe choices.

And with places like Alinea (disclaimer -- haven't been there), I'll bet the cellar that the selected wine with a selected course wouldn't be evaluated as the best pairing by 100% of diners if they were also given other wine options for comparison.

[Fat Guy]

I've got to reject completely the notion that Europeans are not wine knowledgeable. Again, we're talking about small percentages here. Americans are incredibly wine ignorant as a whole, but there's a very small subset of Americans with wine knowledge. Europeans are less wine ignorant as a whole, but of course the average European knows less about wine than the average American sommelier. But does the average American sommelier know more than the average European sommelier? Of course not. Does the average American customer at a Michelin three-star restaurant know more about wine than the average European customer? No way. You go to these restaurants, they have massive wine lists, they have sommeliers who are super-educated, they have customers accustomed to drinking these wines. There's no ignorance issue at that level. However, what you will find is that the overwhelming majority of super-educated sommeliers and consumers in Europe just don't go in for, as Sam calls them, micro pairings. They like bottles. They drink wines by the glass at wine bars, not at great restaurants -- not even at El Bulli (aka elBulli), which to me is the example that emphatically disproves any claims that avant garde cuisine somehow requires micro pairings to be enjoyable. Make that claim to Ferran Adria and see how far you get.

[Brad Ballinger]

I've got to reject completely the notion that Europeans are not wine knowledgeable. Again, we're talking about small percentages here. Americans are incredibly wine ignorant as a whole, but there's a very small subset of Americans with wine knowledge. Europeans are less wine ignorant as a whole, but of course the average European knows less about wine than the average American sommelier. But does the average American sommelier know more than the average European sommelier? Of course not. Does the average American customer at a Michelin three-star restaurant know more about wine than the average European customer? No way. You go to these restaurants, they have massive wine lists, they have sommeliers who are super-educated, they have customers accustomed to drinking these wines. There's no ignorance issue at that level. However, what you will find is that the overwhelming majority of super-educated sommeliers and consumers in Europe just don't go in for, as Sam calls them, micro pairings. They like bottles. They drink wines by the glass at wine bars, not at great restaurants -- not even at El Bulli (aka elBulli), which to me is the example that emphatically disproves any claims that avant garde cuisine somehow requires micro pairings to be enjoyable. Make that claim to Ferran Adria and see how far you get.

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Steven,

I'll support you in this. I'll also add that the Europeans (and let's clarify that we're mainly talking continental Europeans) have been living with wine for centuries. In the United States, with the exception of those who had access to imported wines (and there weren't many), we've only "lived with" wine for decades -- and not very many of them at that.

The Europeans, in general, don't risk an ayneurism when it comes to food and wine pairings. They eat the foods they like with the wines they like. And if the food is balanced in terms of flavors -- sweet, salty, savory, sour, etc., then most balanced wines will go well.

We also need to factor in price. If I'm in Italy, and can buy any number of serviceable wines at the supermarket for the equivalent of $3 American (and less in many instances), or I can order a glass of wine in a restaurant that will cost me less than a bottle of Coca Cola, I'm not predisposed to agonize over whether or not it's going to go perfectly with the food. But for many Americans, $10 is the minimum price for a "good" bottle of wine. And for even more Europeans, paying the equivalent of $10 U.S. for a bottle of wine is laughable.

[JohnL]

I've got to reject completely the notion that Europeans are not wine knowledgeable. Again, we're talking about small percentages here. Americans are incredibly wine ignorant as a whole, but there's a very small subset of Americans with wine knowledge. Europeans are less wine ignorant as a whole, but of course the average European knows less about wine than the average American sommelier. But does the average American sommelier know more than the average European sommelier? Of course not. Does the average American customer at a Michelin three-star restaurant know more about wine than the average European customer? No way. You go to these restaurants, they have massive wine lists, they have sommeliers who are super-educated, they have customers accustomed to drinking these wines. There's no ignorance issue at that level. However, what you will find is that the overwhelming majority of super-educated sommeliers and consumers in Europe just don't go in for, as Sam calls them, micro pairings. They like bottles. They drink wines by the glass at wine bars, not at great restaurants -- not even at El Bulli (aka elBulli), which to me is the example that emphatically disproves any claims that avant garde cuisine somehow requires micro pairings to be enjoyable. Make that claim to Ferran Adria and see how far you get.

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I basically agreed with your original post.

However, this is descending into a "Europe" vs America discussion that is in my opinion a bit silly and way off the mark.

The vast majority of people who drink wine with dinner on at least a semi regular basis anywhere in the world are having two or three courses with which they drink a white and or a red. They are not obsessed with food and wine pairings.

Wine nuts or geeks, again, anywhere in the world are obsessed with finding nirvana in matching food and wine or wine with food. The old generalities (promoted mainly by the British) red with meat, white with fish and more specifically Bordeaux with lamb and Burgundy with beef and chablis with your oysters have been honed to accommodate both trends in cooking--red with some fish dishes (for eg bass in a red wine reduction) etc and the current trend toward multiple small plates within each course of a meal.

Also, as as been noted here, there are many more options in wine available (certainly here in the US but Europe is opening up).

Top restaurants everywhere have also offered large lists with many different types and styles of wines mostly people ordered a bottle of red and a bottle of white and maybe had a glass of champagne to start and/or a glass of a sweet wine for desert. If one had some knowledge one chose with or without help from the sommelier or one relied heavily on the recommendation of the sommelier.

Today restaurants all over the world are serving what in essence are tasting menus of multiple small courses. For most people, a bottle of red and a bottle of white should suffice (as they always have). For some folks who are looking for wine and food nirvana the generalities are often narrowed down by having the option to enjoy a taste of wine with each taste of food. Small pours with small bites.

When well executed, these experiences can be very enjoyable. Unfortunately, most of the time I find this a very flawed exercise. The best example I can provide is the now defunct March here in Manhattan. They pioneered ( certainly they were there at the beginning of this trend) small portions and multiple courses. One could order a bottle or two from a diverse wine list or for a reasonable cost, one could have each course paired with wines selected by a very talented sommelier--Joe Scalice. These pairings were often eye opening, daring and wonderful and most importantly, fun. pairings were often not just with wine but also saki--the wines were usually, rare or interesting wines from countries one usually did not encounter on many lists. in fact, they were often wines one would never chose on one's own. Most of the time they worked.

I feel that often today these pairings in many fine restaurants are a bit strained--there just are not that many really talented sommeliers out there.

so:

This forum (as someone noted) does not represent the real world.

Attempts to generalize about Europe and the US are strained at best. The truth is the wine world is changing and the entire world is adapting and adjusting.

Wine and food pairing is often taken to absurdity (one wine with the white meat and another with the dark) by wine and food nuts--most people stick to one or two bottles that match up with one or two courses. The difference is, these people (wherever in the world they are) have an increasing number of choices available to them from which to choose their one or two bottles--a markedly good thing!

The old canards--Bordeaux with lamb for eg are being re examined as more options become available--remember the Brits had two red wine options for a high quality wine available at the time--Bordeaux and Burgundy. Now they can select from a Shiraz from Australia, a Cabernet from the US, a Spanish rioja--soon wines from India and China will be available!

Wines are made in more styles from all over the world as well. There are different styles of Bordeaux made every wine is now made in a traditional style and a modern styles and every style in between! Cooking is evolving--fish with red wine sauces etc, multiple courses foams, non fat based sauces etc etc etc.

One can eat a simple meal with a wine or a complex meal with many wines there's room for the obsessive, the iconoclast or the just casual diner to enjoy wine with dinner.

"Nose", "Tail"???

If you are having a pig there's a great German riesling that works with both ends of the animal--I can recommend!!!

Edited January 2, 2007 by JohnL (log)

[jsmeeker]

I think you've it right on the head and certainly you clearly understood everyone's comments on your Christmas dinner thread. We were just talking, not demanding that you drink what we recommended. It should be fun and enjoyable most of all, but going to restaurants like Alinea means that we are seeking a higher level of appreciation of both food and wine.

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I appreciated all the suggestions. I didn't see the suggestions for something other than a Zin until after I had bought the wine. Maybe next time, I'll go with one of the other suggestions..

AS I mentioned in that other thread, the Zin DID elicit very positive comments. For my family, wine is something that is aways on the table. I don't usually hear any one comment about the wine. But this time they did. That was great. Maybe they would have with the right Pinot Noir? Who knows. Like I said, next time.

But back to the "perfect" mathing thing. People mention chicken/turkey and the differences between dark meat and white meat as a possible reason to go with different wines depending on which part you happened to be eating. Steven thought that maybe this was a bit extreme. So, I started to think about it and started to think about what I have done when it comes to a different animal. The cow.

I've started a few different threads this year about wines with beef. Once for a meal Brazillian churascaria. Once for a dinner at a well known steak house known for it's massive wine list, and again for a Christmas dinner of prime rib. Each time, I got different suggestions. For the first, a Malbec from Argentina was suggested. I went with that, along with another wine tha twas suggested by the restaurant. For the steak house dinner, California Cabernetwas suggested. We actually went a different direction there and went with a Rhone... For the prime rib, people suggested the Zin.

Is doing that being too matchy? It's all wine to drink with one animal.

[LOS]

I don't think it's particularly common for Europeans to read the wine list first and then match the food with their choices.  The only people I know who do that sort of thing are Americans. 

I think a lot of this has to do with the culinary diversity found at the typical American table. When eating a tasting menu here in the US, there often will be a wide diversity of culinary influenes which tend to make the one-wine-fits-all approach unsatisfying. If the pumpkin gnocchi is in a cardmom-black pepper cream sauce, you won't be drinking the same wine as you did with a classically minimalist venetian shrimp dish. Or, if you do, it really won't be a pleasant match one way or the other.

OTOH, in Lyon, it's a pretty good bet that you can order Beaujolais with an everyday dinner dish, or order Cote Rotie or St Joseph with a special-occasion dish, and it will work. So I think there's a pretty good reason why Europeans are "less matchy" -- the traditional regional food goes well with the traditional regional wine, for the most part. They don't need to spend the mental energy on matching, because the whole package just works out-of-the-box, no assembly required.

---------------------------

As for the issue of pacing: sure, enjoying one bottle over a period of several hours has its advantages. That's just one of the reasons I place little faith in the results of drive-by tastings. BUT you're not really going to enjoy a bottle at a relaxed pace if there are 6 or more diners at the table...the bottle won't outlast a single course anyway. In this situation, one-wine-per-course is just the natural thing to do. So I make sure to either bring bottles that will be ready to go, or decant the wine earlier.

I think per-course wine pairings are a reasonable way to handle wine in a "tasting menu for 2" setting where the diversity of the plates precludes a good match with only one or two wines (although I might note that in many of these situations a bottle of Champagne would do nicely, but Americans don't think of Champagne as dinner wine). When I do a "tasting menu" dinner, there are usually 6 or more guests -- so this isn't really an issue for me.

[Kouign Aman]

I dont see a "too" about it, FatGuy.

If you enjoy playing with the pairings, more power to you. Nice hobby to have. Kind of fun to have the option of being selective in the tiniest details. Probably not a hobby indulged daily.

If you prefer to pick a bottle and take it thru the entire meal, thats a whole 'nother kind of matching, which can indulge much the same attention to detail, since you are trying to select something that will work with all the parts of the meal.

"Too" would only be if the first group of folks insisted the rest of us adopt their hobby. Of course restaurants push wine pairings. Its a nice way to up the profit from the meal without greatly increasing overhead costs.

If anyone tries to force me to select different wines for each portion of the gratin (this for the crust, this for the creamy middle, and this for the chewy bit at the bottom), I shall reciprocate by asking them to paint patterns on their toenails, as I do. I suspect we'd reach a laughter-laden compromise.

[Craig Camp]

I don't think it's particularly common for Europeans to read the wine list first and then match the food with their choices.  The only people I know who do that sort of thing are Americans. 

I think a lot of this has to do with the culinary diversity found at the typical American table. When eating a tasting menu here in the US, there often will be a wide diversity of culinary influenes which tend to make the one-wine-fits-all approach unsatisfying. If the pumpkin gnocchi is in a cardmom-black pepper cream sauce, you won't be drinking the same wine as you did with a classically minimalist venetian shrimp dish. Or, if you do, it really won't be a pleasant match one way or the other.

OTOH, in Lyon, it's a pretty good bet that you can order Beaujolais with an everyday dinner dish, or order Cote Rotie or St Joseph with a special-occasion dish, and it will work. So I think there's a pretty good reason why Europeans are "less matchy" -- the traditional regional food goes well with the traditional regional wine, for the most part. They don't need to spend the mental energy on matching, because the whole package just works out-of-the-box, no assembly required.

---------------------------

As for the issue of pacing: sure, enjoying one bottle over a period of several hours has its advantages. That's just one of the reasons I place little faith in the results of drive-by tastings. BUT you're not really going to enjoy a bottle at a relaxed pace if there are 6 or more diners at the table...the bottle won't outlast a single course anyway. In this situation, one-wine-per-course is just the natural thing to do. So I make sure to either bring bottles that will be ready to go, or decant the wine earlier.

I think per-course wine pairings are a reasonable way to handle wine in a "tasting menu for 2" setting where the diversity of the plates precludes a good match with only one or two wines (although I might note that in many of these situations a bottle of Champagne would do nicely, but Americans don't think of Champagne as dinner wine). When I do a "tasting menu" dinner, there are usually 6 or more guests -- so this isn't really an issue for me.

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I agree with you. Its not only the diversity of the American table, but the diversity of the American wine market. Literally the best of everything from everywhere is available here. This is rarely the case in Europe.

[Craig Camp]

I've got to reject completely the notion that Europeans are not wine knowledgeable. Again, we're talking about small percentages here. Americans are incredibly wine ignorant as a whole, but there's a very small subset of Americans with wine knowledge. Europeans are less wine ignorant as a whole, but of course the average European knows less about wine than the average American sommelier. But does the average American sommelier know more than the average European sommelier? Of course not. Does the average American customer at a Michelin three-star restaurant know more about wine than the average European customer? No way. You go to these restaurants, they have massive wine lists, they have sommeliers who are super-educated, they have customers accustomed to drinking these wines. There's no ignorance issue at that level. However, what you will find is that the overwhelming majority of super-educated sommeliers and consumers in Europe just don't go in for, as Sam calls them, micro pairings. They like bottles. They drink wines by the glass at wine bars, not at great restaurants -- not even at El Bulli (aka elBulli), which to me is the example that emphatically disproves any claims that avant garde cuisine somehow requires micro pairings to be enjoyable. Make that claim to Ferran Adria and see how far you get.

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I reject your rejection.

The difference is that the average American customer has a much, much broader selection available to them than the average European. My experience is that European sommeliers have a higher degree of knowledge about the wines from their own country/region than American sommeliers would about that same area, but the Americans have broader knowledge about wines available from throughout the world.

If you go to a restaurant in Barolo, there is little thought as to which wine to have with which course as these matches have be well worked out. However if you go to a restaurant in Los Angeles with wines from everywhere and food influences from everywhere you have a different problem.

Also, are you arguing that just because El Bulli does it one way that it's the right way and Grant has no right to try to make his own statement at Alinea? It seems to me that Adria does what he wants because he sees it as best for his food, while Grant does the same thing. These are statement restaurants and the owner can make whatever statement they want.

Edited January 2, 2007 by Craig Camp (log)

[docsconz]

I think the focus on pairings has been unfairly placed on an obsessive desire for "the perfect match". For me it is all about fun and being able to try and enjoy new and sometimes unfamiliar wines in a relatively optimal setting for the food. When at a restaurant like Alinea, at which a lot of thought has been placed in this process by someone else, it is simply another part of the journey of discovery one encounetrs at a meal there. Is it essential? Probably not, but I do appreciate it.

Of course that doesn't mean that other restaurants put as much care into selecting their pairings or have as interesting cellars to select from. Many do, though.

[Fat Guy]

are you arguing that just because El Bulli does it one way that it's the right way and Grant has no right to try to make his own statement at Alinea?

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I'm arguing that if anybody says avant-garde cuisine can only be enjoyed with micro pairings, we can just point to the counter-example of El Bulli and laugh that person out of the room.

[Craig Camp]

are you arguing that just because El Bulli does it one way that it's the right way and Grant has no right to try to make his own statement at Alinea?

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I'm arguing that if anybody says avant-garde cuisine can only be enjoyed with micro pairings, we can just point to the counter-example of El Bulli and laugh that person out of the room.

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No one is saying that (here anyway), so I guess no one has to leave the room in humiliation.

It would seem to me that by going to a restaurant like El Bulli, you are going for an extreme culinary experience that has little to do with dining in general. If you're going for a peak experience why not go all the way and include the wine in that experience? The only reason I can think of is that you don't drink or just aren't that interested in the wines. If you're just looking for background music from your wines no problem, but if you're looking for something special, which I would be while dining at El Bulli, I would want to reach for something more meaningful.

Edited January 2, 2007 by Craig Camp (log)

[JohnL]

I think the focus on pairings has been unfairly placed on an obsessive desire for "the perfect match". For me it is all about fun and being able to try and enjoy new and sometimes unfamiliar wines in a relatively optimal setting for the food. When at a restaurant like Alinea, at which a lot of thought has been placed in this process by someone else, it is simply another part of the journey of discovery one encounetrs at a meal there. Is it essential? Probably not, but I do appreciate it.

Of course that doesn't mean that other restaurants put as much care into selecting their pairings or have as interesting cellars to select from. Many do, though.

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I am in agreement.

especially re: "obsessive desire for the perfect match."

Small plates and tasting menus are a relatively new phenomena in dining.

One can simply choose a good bottle of white and a good red and have a great time savoring the wines with each dish.

or

One can go with an attempt to pair each dish with a small taste of wine. This second option introduces an intellectual angle --why this wine with that dish? It serves to focus the diner on each food item and each wine. While this can be illuminating if done properly, I often find the process somewhat fatiguing--there is something to be said for relaxing over normal sized portions of good food and wine at one's leisure--where each bite and each sip are not so critical.

As to the European issue: most everyday, average Europeans drank the local wines with the local foods. More often than not, the wines were pedestrian--simple wines. There is a tradition in parts of France where folks go to the local wine co-op with their own containers and fill em up with wine from huge vats or casks. this equates to immigrants to the US who who made and drank jug wines. Simple grapey and cheap. I have had many a dinner with Italian American families in the Bronx who tapped a jug of Gallo hardy Burgundy to accompany the pasta and veal.

So called wine sophisticates were found in major cities where there was a selection of wines that were usually imported to other countries or were imported from other countries. These are premium wines. Interestingly, the British are responsible for how we here view wine--at one time they consumed a large amount of Burgundy and Bordeaux, which went into upper class cellars.

(the average Joe was probably drinking beer just like here in the states). There really wasn't much else available at the time. Hence the canard--Bordeaux with your lamb and Burgundy with your beef. Times have changed. The average guy is drinking better wines and has far more options both in Europe and here (as well as Russia, Japan, etc).

I would like to introduce one issue. In my limited experience, most chefs are not really "into" wine. In fact there are a number I have met who are really not very knowledgeable about wine and very few who concern themselves with mating food and wine. Most seem to have a somewhat laissez faire attitude about wine. I am not saying they don't enjoy wine themselves, I am saying they don't seem to be very obsessive about it.

[Shalmanese]

In my initial post I mentioned two reasons: first, it's interesting to see how the same wine tastes with different foods; second, it's a great pleasure to live with a wine throughout a long meal and to watch it develop over the course of two or three hours of drinking.

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Nobody dines exclusively on 10 course tasting menus. If you're a wine lover then in the course of your day to day dining, you'll have plenty of experience in how wine tastes with different foods because you're forced to. As for developing over 2 to 3 hours, if you make it a habit of drinking while cooking then you get plenty of experience at letting a wine develop over a long braise.

I guess my point is there certainly are legitimate reasons why you would want to stick to a single variety but in the course of everyday dining, the oppurtunity to open 1 bottle of wine vs 6 bottles of wine is 10:1 so why not make the most of the times you can open 6 bottles to open 6 different ones?

[pedro]

.....

It would seem to me that by going to a restaurant like El Bulli, you are going for an extreme culinary experience that has little to do with dining in general. If you're going for a peak experience why not go all the way and include the wine in that experience? The only reason I can think of is that you don't drink or just aren't that interested in the wines. If you're just looking for background music from your wines no problem, but if you're looking for something special, which I would be while dining at El Bulli, I would want to reach for something more meaningful.

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- Gosset Grand Millessime 99

- Daguenau Pur Sang 2000

- Chablis Dauvissat La Foret 99

- Chassagne Montrachet Bernard Moreau et Fils Les Grandes Ruchottes 01

- Riesling Königsbacher Idig Christman 2002

Probably not the best wines in their wine list, but neither the worse. These are the wines we had this summer at elBulli. You can take a look at the menu: http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=88797&st=60#

If you take a look at that menu, or at the menu of the so called avant-garde, hypermodern or hypervanguard restaurants, it's difficult not to raise one's eyebrow thinking that there's a wine that 'matches' most of the featured dishes.

[Pan]

[...]more than 80% of Barolo is consumed outside of Italy.

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Which means that almost 20% of it is consumed in Italy, and considering what the population of the rest of the world is vs. the population of Italy, that is a pretty substantial percentage.

But getting back to the main topic: I've really enjoyed pairings on a few occasions but don't do them much. One occasion was a trip to the New York branch of Chanto, an upscale Japanese chain, where Sethro was the Pastry Chef at the time. I had sake pairings that were listed in their menu. Another occasion was a trip to Al Di La in Brooklyn, where my friend and I had the bartender/sommelier select half glasses to pair with our appetizer, primo, and secondo. I was getting tipsy and didn't order wine with dessert, but he gave us more pours, anyway, and I had a hangover the next day, but it was worth it. But when I drink wine, I usually either have a glass or two with a meal (not necessarily paired to courses as such) or share a bottle. I always consult with the sommelier, or failing that, the waiter, regarding what will go well with what I've ordered. But I digress. My main point would be that on the one hand, pairings can be very pleasurable, but on the other, a bottle can itself pair brilliantly with all the savory courses in a meal (one memorable such occasion was when I had a meal with a friend at Union Pacific, not the most conventional food). Craig, you seem militant about this, in a way that I don't understand. Then again, you're a wine-producer and I'm only an occasional wine-drinker.

Edited January 3, 2007 by Pan (log)

[docsconz]

I would like to introduce one issue. In my limited experience, most chefs are not really "into" wine. In fact there are a number I have met who are really not very knowledgeable about wine and very few who concern themselves with mating food and wine. Most seem to have a somewhat laissez faire attitude about wine. I am not saying they don't enjoy wine themselves, I am saying they don't seem to be very obsessive about it.

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I can't say that this corresponds to my own limited experience. Most of the chefs I know are into wine as well though to varying degrees. Some such as John Wabeck of Firefly, are particularly passionate. In John's case, his passion is chenin blanc though his knowledge and interests extend well beyond that varietal..

[H. du Bois]

Part of what I think must drive the "micro-matching" in American restaurants is the prevalence of (genuine or would-be) oenophiles here at a certain price point.  Although it may happen every so often, I don't think it's particularly common for Europeans to read the wine list first and then match the food with their choices.  The only people I know who do that sort of thing are Americans.  Quite to the contrary, most of the time in Italy, France, Spain, etc. wine is just something that is consumed with food.  Yes, one cares about the quality of the wine and how it pairs with the food, but no more than one cares about the quality of the food and the food is driving (of course, many Europeans are far more invested and involved in their culinary culture than most Americans).  The times I have enjoyed several different bottles of wine over the course of a European meal or outing, it has not been to make specific "this wine pairs so well with the hint of rosemary in the duck jus" kind of pairings, but rather just to enjoy a different and interesting bottle of wine.

Agree absolutely.

[docsconz]

[...]more than 80% of Barolo is consumed outside of Italy.

←

Which means that almost 20% of it is consumed in Italy, and considering what the population of the rest of the world is vs. the population of Italy, that is a pretty substantial percentage.

But getting back to the main topic: I've really enjoyed pairings on a few occasions but don't do them much. One occasion was a trip to the New York branch of Chanto, an upscale Japanese chain, where Sethro was the Pastry Chef at the time. I had sake pairings that were listed in their menu. Another occasion was a trip to Al Di La in Brooklyn, where my friend and I had the bartender/sommelier select half glasses to pair with our appetizer, primo, and secondo. I was getting tipsy and didn't order wine with dessert, but he gave us more pours, anyway, and I had a hangover the next day, but it was worth it. But when I drink wine, I usually either have a glass or two with a meal (not necessarily paired to courses as such) or share a bottle. I always consult with the sommelier, or failing that, the waiter, regarding what will go well with what I've ordered. But I digress. My main point would be that on the one hand, pairings can be very pleasurable, but on the other, a bottle can itself pair brilliantly with all the savory courses in a meal (one memorable such occasion was when I had a meal with a friend at Union Pacific, not the most conventional food). Craig, you seem militant about this, in a way that I don't understand. Then again, you're a wine-producer and I'm only an occasional wine-drinker.

←

Craig can certainly speak for himself, but my sense of his "militancy" comes from the impression given in this topic that pairing different courses with specific wines over a dinner is inherently nonsensical, something that both he and I feel is ridiculous. If we have reached the point when every corner diner or mom and pop restaurant start getting into the act or it becomes de rigeur that everyone does it all the time then I would agree that we have become "too matchy." In the meantime, I applaud those who are making a concerted and honest effort to make wine service and dining as pleasurable as they can. For me a dinner with well-matched interesting wines increases my pleasure with that meal considerably. Sometimes that occurs with a couple of well chosen bottles. In other instances it occurs with a paired flight of wine. What is the big deal?

[Craig Camp]

[...]more than 80% of Barolo is consumed outside of Italy.

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Which means that almost 20% of it is consumed in Italy, and considering what the population of the rest of the world is vs. the population of Italy, that is a pretty substantial percentage.

But getting back to the main topic: I've really enjoyed pairings on a few occasions but don't do them much. One occasion was a trip to the New York branch of Chanto, an upscale Japanese chain, where Sethro was the Pastry Chef at the time. I had sake pairings that were listed in their menu. Another occasion was a trip to Al Di La in Brooklyn, where my friend and I had the bartender/sommelier select half glasses to pair with our appetizer, primo, and secondo. I was getting tipsy and didn't order wine with dessert, but he gave us more pours, anyway, and I had a hangover the next day, but it was worth it. But when I drink wine, I usually either have a glass or two with a meal (not necessarily paired to courses as such) or share a bottle. I always consult with the sommelier, or failing that, the waiter, regarding what will go well with what I've ordered. But I digress. My main point would be that on the one hand, pairings can be very pleasurable, but on the other, a bottle can itself pair brilliantly with all the savory courses in a meal (one memorable such occasion was when I had a meal with a friend at Union Pacific, not the most conventional food). Craig, you seem militant about this, in a way that I don't understand. Then again, you're a wine-producer and I'm only an occasional wine-drinker.

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Craig can certainly speak for himself, but my sense of his "militancy" comes from the impression given in this topic that pairing different courses with specific wines over a dinner is inherently nonsensical, something that both he and I feel is ridiculous. If we have reached the point when every corner diner or mom and pop restaurant start getting into the act or it becomes de rigeur that everyone does it all the time then I would agree that we have become "too matchy." In the meantime, I applaud those who are making a concerted and honest effort to make wine service and dining as pleasurable as they can. For me a dinner with well-matched interesting wines increases my pleasure with that meal considerably. Sometimes that occurs with a couple of well chosen bottles. In other instances it occurs with a paired flight of wine. What is the big deal?

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John - I'll happily let you talk for me. That's it exactly.

[Craig Camp]

Then again, you're a wine-producer and I'm only an occasional wine-drinker.

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You may be on to something here

[Craig Camp]

Which means that almost 20% of it is consumed in Italy, and considering what the population of the rest of the world is vs. the population of Italy, that is a pretty substantial percentage.

When considering the total wine consumption in Italy, I would not use the size of the population as a reliable indicator. They pop a few more corks than the average American.

Only 8,000,000 bottles of Barolo are produced a year. That leaves 1,600,000 bottles of Barolo for 60,000,000 Italians. Subtract out the bottles consumed in Piemonte and Lombardia and you'll see there are few bottles left for the rest of Italy.

[Pan]

[...]For me a dinner with well-matched interesting wines increases my pleasure with that meal considerably. Sometimes that occurs with a couple of well chosen bottles. In other instances it occurs with a paired flight of wine. What is the big deal?

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We're in agreement.

[Pan]

Which means that almost 20% of it is consumed in Italy, and considering what the population of the rest of the world is vs. the population of Italy, that is a pretty substantial percentage.

When considering the total wine consumption in Italy, I would not use the size of the population as a reliable indicator. They pop a few more corks than the average American.

Only 8,000,000 bottles of Barolo are produced a year. That leaves 1,600,000 bottles of Barolo for 60,000,000 Italians. Subtract out the bottles consumed in Piemonte and Lombardia and you'll see there are few bottles left for the rest of Italy.

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As Hathor pointed out, Italians tend to support the wines of their region. Is there something you find objectionable about that? And if there is, do you also object to their tending to eat local-style food the great majority of the time? Because when you're talking about matching wine with food, isn't there something to the idea that the wines grown in a region match the traditional food of the region, both redolent of terroir in some sense? I found that Chianti and Montepulciano wines went very well with Tuscan cuisine.

[docsconz]

Which means that almost 20% of it is consumed in Italy, and considering what the population of the rest of the world is vs. the population of Italy, that is a pretty substantial percentage.

When considering the total wine consumption in Italy, I would not use the size of the population as a reliable indicator. They pop a few more corks than the average American.

Only 8,000,000 bottles of Barolo are produced a year. That leaves 1,600,000 bottles of Barolo for 60,000,000 Italians. Subtract out the bottles consumed in Piemonte and Lombardia and you'll see there are few bottles left for the rest of Italy.

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As Hathor pointed out, Italians tend to support the wines of their region. Is there something you find objectionable about that? And if there is, do you also object to their tending to eat local-style food the great majority of the time? Because when you're talking about matching wine with food, isn't there something to the idea that the wines grown in a region match the traditional food of the region, both redolent of terroir in some sense? I found that Chianti and Montepulciano wines went very well with Tuscan cuisine.

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Michael, this is precisely why this question is much less pertinent in Europe, especially outside of haute cuisine establishments.