Minimalist No-Knead Bread Technique (Part 1)

[tim]

Hi,

I plan on saving a biga or poolish for my next batch of bread. I assume that this may be held in the fridge for a week or so.

How do I incorporate the poolish into the next batch of bread?

Thanks,

Tim

[jackal10]

Biga and poolish refer to dry (50% hydration) and wet (100% hydration) starter sponges. I think what Tim means is an old dough addition. - usually about 10% by weight, which will add flavour and enzymes.

One criticism of this method is that the webs between the gas cells are fairly thick and waxy, since the gluten is under developed and not oxidised. A pinch of Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C) powder will help, added at the beginning.

There are two keys to this method:

a) Fairly wet "no-knead" dough. People like Dan Lepard have been advocating the stretch and fold technique instead of kneading for a long time

b) Baking in an enclosed heavy hot pan. The advantages of cloches are well known. Using a hot pan is new, or perhaps a re-discovery and a good way to stimulate a steamy bakers oven.

Personally I'd use a standard sourdough method, with a starter sponge, overnight retard in the fridge and bake in a pan.

[dockhl]

Beautiful, if small loaf, DID NOT SING (what does this mean?)

When people say it sings, they mean that crackling noise from the actual loaf when it goes on the cooling rack for the first ten minutes or so. I can hear my loaves cooling in the next room! If you got that wonderful crust, the loaf was probably talking to you!

Great idea with the ziplock and the tupperware. I would have worried about enough air getting to the yeast, but if it works, it works. Much neater, I bet. I live in a tropical climate, and was beginning to get an ant problem, yuck!

Anne~

the first loaf I made sang it's little heart out.......not a peep from this one.

Made an "Egg with a Hat" this AM for my daughter who LOVED it. Nice and crunchy.

I don't have an ant problem but I do have a DOG problem! Reaching the countertop is not difficult for these two

Hi,

I plan on saving a biga or poolish for my next batch of bread.  I assume that this may be held in the fridge for a week or so.

How do I incorporate the poolish into the next batch of bread?

Tim, I just stirred mine into the initial dough. I think it made a difference in flavor.

Kathy

[devlin]

Biga and poolish refer to dry (50% hydration) and wet (100% hydration) starter sponges. I think what Tim means is an old dough addition. - usually about 10% by weight, which will add flavour and enzymes.

One criticism of this method is that the webs between the gas cells are fairly thick and waxy, since the gluten is under developed and not oxidised. A pinch of Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C) powder will help, added at the beginning.

There are two keys to this method:

a) Fairly wet "no-knead" dough. People like Dan Lepard have been advocating the stretch and fold technique instead of kneading for a long time

b) Baking in an enclosed heavy hot pan. The advantages of cloches are well known. Using a hot pan is new, or perhaps a re-discovery and a good way to stimulate a steamy bakers oven.

Personally I'd use a standard sourdough method, with a starter sponge, overnight retard in the fridge and bake in a pan.

←

I second Jack's recs. The "new" method advanced in the article is in fact very old, but I guess more rediscovered than anything. And you really can get the same results by simply using a very hot pre-heated oven and a baking stone.

[annecros]

Biga and poolish refer to dry (50% hydration) and wet (100% hydration) starter sponges. I think what Tim means is an old dough addition. - usually about 10% by weight, which will add flavour and enzymes.

One criticism of this method is that the webs between the gas cells are fairly thick and waxy, since the gluten is under developed and not oxidised. A pinch of Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C) powder will help, added at the beginning.

There are two keys to this method:

a) Fairly wet "no-knead" dough. People like Dan Lepard have been advocating the stretch and fold technique instead of kneading for a long time

b) Baking in an enclosed heavy hot pan. The advantages of cloches are well known. Using a hot pan is new, or perhaps a re-discovery and a good way to stimulate a steamy bakers oven.

Personally I'd use a standard sourdough method, with a starter sponge, overnight retard in the fridge and bake in a pan.

←

I second Jack's recs. The "new" method advanced in the article is in fact very old, but I guess more rediscovered than anything. And you really can get the same results by simply using a very hot pre-heated oven and a baking stone.

←

Once again, where is "Old Foodie" when you need her? I am sure she has recipes that adequatly trace the method.

I guess I need to PM her. There really is nothing new under the sun.

Do you really get the same results by using an oven and stone?

[Abra]

Well, no, I've never gotten the same results using an oven and a stone.

First, I've never made any other no-knead bread, so I can't speak to that part. I've made a lot of cold-fermented several-day-rising bread in an oven with a stone. For one thing, you have to add some steam, which is somewhat iffy at home. I've been throwing water on the bottom of my oven, but I cringe a bit each time. I've never been able to keep the inside of the oven moist for very long, and the crust is definitely thicker all over when baked this way than what I've gotten on the stone. And I'm talking about slack dough plopped right on the stone on a piece of parchment. I've made a lot of quite good bread that way, but it's not exactly like what I get with this method.

[annecros]

Well, no, I've never gotten the same results using an oven and a stone. 

First, I've never made any other  no-knead bread, so I can't speak to that part.  I've made a lot of cold-fermented several-day-rising bread in an oven with a stone.  For one thing, you have to add some steam, which is somewhat iffy at home.  I've been throwing water on the bottom of my oven, but I cringe a bit each time.  I've never been able to keep the inside of the oven moist for very long, and the crust is definitely thicker all over when baked this way than what I've gotten on the stone.  And I'm talking about slack dough plopped right on the stone on a piece of parchment.  I've made a lot of quite good bread that way, but it's not exactly like what I get with this method.

←

I haven't had the same experience either in the past, but it has been some time since I have baked bread on a stone.

I always hated tossing water into a hot oven, kinda scary even if it goes into a broiler pan. And seems contrary to the minimalist philosophy. But, just my opinion.

[MelissaH]

That being said, MelissaH's great results are what put me over the edge and got flour under my fingernails again!

Anne

←

Anne, I think you're giving me too much credit.

I'll be making another batch tonight, to be baked tomorrow evening. (It's going to be sent in with my husband, to be shared with his little class on Tuesday. Ideally I'd bake Tuesday morning, but there's enough going on that I won't have time, so Monday night it is.) I'm planning to use some WW flour in it, but I'm also going to try pulling the lid sooner rather than later, to see what that does to the crust.

MelissaH

[annecros]

That being said, MelissaH's great results are what put me over the edge and got flour under my fingernails again!

Anne

←

Anne, I think you're giving me too much credit.

MelissaH

←

I don't think so, credit where it is earned.

[Dianne]

I am just joining this party. I have my first batch of dough mixed up and will bake tomorrow AM. I am in Ontario and using Canadian AP flour. I found my dough a little dry when I mixed it and added a tad of extra water to get a shaggy mass.

I can hardly wait to see what tomorrow brings.

[djyee100]

I was in a cooking class on Thursday when the teacher mentioned this thread, and I practically jumped out of my seat. I've been making this bread since it was printed in the NY Times. So far I've made it three times. The breads baked up with an open texture (big holes), wonderful aroma, good flavor, and crackly crust.

Twice I baked with King Arthur unbleached bread flour, the third time half unbleached bread flour and half whole wheat flour. The breads made with all unbleached bread flour were particularly good. I'm a skilled but not particularly dedicated bread baker, and this may be the closest I ever come to a French baguette-type bread.

Some things I did differently from the printed recipe:

> I make only a 1/2 recipe and bake it in a 3-qt earthenware covered casserole dish, since that is the largest size pot I have of the required kind. The smaller size doesn't seem to matter, and maybe it's even better. The breads cook well and there's proportionately more crust to body compared to the regular recipe.

> On the tip of a friend who tried this recipe before I did, I increased the salt. For a full recipe, it would be 1 1/2 teaspoons of salt.

> In Step Two, I like to do a ciabatta-type stretch of the dough. I pull the dough to twice its length, then fold it back on itself in thirds, like a letter. I do this twice.

> I do not mess with flour-y towels (Step Three). After stretching the dough and forming it into a loose ball, I place it in a lightly oiled bowl, flip it over to grease the top, cover it with plastic wrap, and let the dough rise for a second time. When the dough is ready to bake, I remove the plastic wrap and turn the bowl upside down over the hot pot. The dough slides out into the pot. The final shape of the bread may not be as elegant as it could be--let's say it's Very Rustic--but the bread is attractive enough and most important, tastes delicious.

> For the half-unbleached, half-whole wheat flour version of this bread, I increased the water to 1 cup for a 1/2 recipe. I have no idea what the baker's formula should be. I kept adding water until the texture of the dough seemed right, and it worked.

I'm enthused about this recipe. It's very easy and practical. If you time it right you can mix up the dough in the evening and have fresh-baked bread for dinner the next day.

[annecros]

Welcome djyee100. First post, you are in trouble now! I wondered about oiling the dough. I had noticed in the video posted with the original story that the dough ball appeared to be encircled with oil. I like what a nice olive oil does for bread, before and after it is baked.

I am enthused as well. It is one of those recipes that I love in that it is open ended and allows for creativity. Bread is so honest and wholesome, but very very scary for any number of reasons. Nobody likes to flop.

My raisin bread is wonderful! I used the earlier method mentioned with the olive loaf (got to do that one soon) in that I folded raisins in before the second rise, along with cinnamon and brown sugar, rolled up like a jelly roll. Browned faster, but I expected that. Very tasty.

The latest Whole wheat loaf came out nicely as well. I cut down the whole wheat flour to three quarters of a cup, quarter cup of sour manioc, and the rest bread flour (Pillsubry's Best, I am such a bargain slut) with two teaspoons of salt. I was well pleased, and more importantly hubby can't quit eating! Much fun. It did take up a good deal more liquid because the manioc is so absorbant. That's why I like adding the liquid to bring it up to a shaggy ball. Neutralizes the variables.

Yeast is a wonderful thing!

Dianne, let us know how things turn out tomorrow. AP flour kind of scares me.

Anne

Edit: Forgot to add that I dissolved a quarter cup of white sugar into the water before adding the first cup to the raisin bread. Got a shiny finish on the bread.

Edited November 20, 2006 by annecros (log)

[jackal10]

This is my experiment.

I used my normal minimal knead dough (this is a wholewheat spelt) and baked it in a LeCrueset casserole, although I forgot to slash, so it tore.

While its perfectly acceptable bread, good even by commercial standards, I find it a bit coarse and clunky, compared to my normal baking.

Here is a picture of nearly the same dough (this one is ordinary wholewheat) cooked in the same oven at the same temperature for the same length of time but with steam (water onto a pan) for the first minute only. Note the higher rise, and the finer web walls. Some of the holes are smaller, but then the walls between them are much thinner, making a less pudding like mouth feel. That may be because the loaf has less heat shock.

More importantly the crust is thinner (but no less crackly and tasty), because the steam was not present for so long.

[annecros]

So, jackal10, is it your opinion that taking the lid off after about ten to fifteen minutes would result in thinner crust? Or would that mess up the works?

Anne

[jackal10]

Yes, taking the lid off after 10 mins will give a thinner crust.

Some people like thick crusts, and the old fashioned wood fired brick ovens, if properly sealed, tend to get very steamy towards the end of a batch and give a similar thick crust.

I only get a shiny thin crackly crust in an oven with lots of super hot steam in the first minute or so to gelatanise the outside of the loaf.

[MelissaH]

I've got another batch of dough going. Last night shortly before 9:30 I mixed together 400 g KA AP flour, 75 g KA WW flour, 1/4 tsp SAF instant yeast, 9 g salt, and (this is the different part) half a teaspoon, which registered as 1 g on my scale, of diastatic malt powder. I mixed these together with my hand, and then added 370 grams of room temperature water. (My room was at 64 degrees F.) It's been sitting since then, and in about another hour I'll be turning it onto a rice floured towel on my peel, in preparation for baking this afternoon in my usual 4.5 quart LC oval pot.

I think I will try taking the lid off sooner than 30 minutes in, because my crust has been very thick, almost tough. Unfortunately, there probably won't be any of this loaf for me to eat---it's going to be sent with my husband for his small class tomorrow morning.

MelissaH

eta: aaagh! What I've thought was rice flour for these batches of bread is really potato starch! Whatever it is, though, it seems to work fine to keep wet bread dough from gunking up a towel. I will, however, be acquiring some rice flour from rice (not potatoes ) when I'm shopping next.

Edited November 20, 2006 by MelissaH (log)

[Dianne]

I woke up this morning to a seething mass of guk; very bubbly and very sticky. I got it out onto my floured board, folded as best I could (next time I will use the ciabatta stretch and fold) and plopped it into a basket lined with parchment.

It stuck to the parchment. So when it was time to bake, I put the mass onto the hot bottom of my cloche, parchment and all.

I took off the lid after 20 min. I didn't get as much oven spring as I expected. The top didn't open much and I got only a little crackle of crust.

But it looks golden and delicious. I am planning to eat it for dinner tonight; so I won't cut it until it is completely cool. More later.

[cajungirl]

This weekend I used refreshed sourdough starter. Also, I used 1T of kosher salt and bread flour. This was a wonderful loaf of bread (my 4th so far). Yesterday and again this morning it was still fresh, though the crust was less than crisp. But thats easy to remedy with a toaster or oven to re-crisp it, so no problem.

My next endeavor will use both sourdough and semolina, possibly a few sesame seeds on the top.

Oh, this is such fun

[Abra]

Jack, I hope you'll still respect me in the morning, but I have to say that I think the version with the larger holes and thicker crust looks more delicious!

[jackal10]

Depends how we spend the night, but each to their own.

Its certainly a useful technique, and may be the answer to baking bread in a conventional oven.

[Scott_R]

Hello, all.

I recently finished making a batch via the published recipe, and I am at least intrigued enough to try again.

I used the 1-5/8 cup of water, as indicated in the published recipe; coupled with the flour being spooned & leveled rather than scooped, and I had a WET dough. So wet, that the well-floured cotten towel was damp by the time I removed the dough after the short second proof; trying to unstick the dough (batter) wasn't so much fun.

I baked it in a 7-quart Lodge Dutch oven, purchased specifically for this purpose; the printed recipe called for a container between 6-8 quarts, so I thought this would fit the bill. Unfortunately, the diameter of the item (12") was, I think, much too big and didn't do much to help the spring--the final product was somewhat flat (though not really much more so than some of the pics I've seen in this thread). I'm tempted to pick up a 5-quart Dutch oven to compare, but I don't know that smaller diameter is enough to make a difference (10 inches rather than 12).

I finally saw the video days after I made the bread, and what they used seemed much smaller than what I had. Was the one they featured maybe 8-9 inches across?

30 minutes covered, about 20 uncovered. I didn't wait very long to cut in (15 minutes? Not sure I recall). The interior was nice and full of holes, but disappointingly damp--damp to the point where it seemed not properly done. Maybe the outside could have been further browned, but the crust was otherwise crunchy thick. I'm thinking I'll make it again with the 1.5 cups of water this time and see what that does to the dampness.

Nice flavor, though, it not mind breaking.

[Irishgirl]

The dampness was because you cut into your bread too soon. When the Flour becomes hydrated and then cooks it becomes a gel. When baked, that gel needs time to set. Cool your bread for at least 45 minutes after baking and you will have a much better result. This also allows the bread to develop its final flavour.

Carry on!

[cookman]

Hello, all.

I recently finished making a batch via the published recipe, and I am at least intrigued enough to try again.

I used the 1-5/8 cup of water, as indicated in the published recipe; coupled with the flour being spooned & leveled rather than scooped, and I had a WET dough. So wet, that the well-floured cotten towel was damp by the time I removed the dough after the short second proof; trying to unstick the dough (batter) wasn't so much fun.

I baked it in a 7-quart Lodge Dutch oven, purchased specifically for this purpose; the printed recipe called for a container between 6-8 quarts, so I thought this would fit the bill. Unfortunately, the diameter of the item (12") was, I think, much too big and didn't do much to help the spring--the final product was somewhat flat (though not really much more so than some of the pics I've seen in this thread). I'm tempted to pick up a 5-quart Dutch oven to compare, but I don't know that smaller diameter is enough to make a difference (10 inches rather than 12).

I finally saw the video days after I made the bread, and what they used seemed much smaller than what I had. Was the one they featured maybe 8-9 inches across?

30 minutes covered, about 20 uncovered. I didn't wait very long to cut in (15 minutes? Not sure I recall). The interior was nice and full of holes, but disappointingly damp--damp to the point where it seemed not properly done. Maybe the outside could have been further browned, but the crust was otherwise crunchy thick. I'm thinking I'll make it again with the 1.5 cups of water this time and see what that does to the dampness.

Nice flavor, though, it not mind breaking.

←

Try cooking the bread until the internal temperature is 210 degrees, and let it cool to room temperature before eating.

[tamiam]

I finished up a second effort (yes, only me second--I am so far behind the rest of the class). This time I used 3/4 AP flour, 1/4 whole wheat flour, a bit of refreshed sourdough starter, and 2 1/2 t salt.

My dough was much more structured this time. The flavor is much improved too--before it tasted kind of hollow to me--I dont how else to describe it. This time it tastes like bread in a really good way. But being one to fuss, next time I use wheat flour, I will use less to get a wetter dough--If I understand correctly, the wetness is what makes for the really light texture.

And to whomever that was who posted above, in my 5 qt round pan, which is about 10" diameter, I get a loaf that is perhaps 3" high. I think a 7 qt is too large for this amount of dough--but the recipe is eminently scalable, so no worry.

And jackal 10--Thanks for explaining which changes lead toward which results. That really helps me a lot.

[Dianne]

My loaf was several hours old before cutting and the structure was wonderful. Nice big holeswith good distribution and moist, but not wet. Next batch is rising now.