Richman on Vegas Dining

[Sneakeater]

It's interesting to note that, in his new perch on Bloomberg, Richman gave an ultimately favorable review to the NYC Atelier Robuchon:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...olumnist_elliot

So I guess his problem isn't with branches per se, but rather with branches in Las Vegas.

[moosnsqrl]

moosnsqrl, I think you are absolutely entitled to your own opinion but I think its a bit much to say that Vegas outposts of other fine dining establishments are the end of the world, like Fat Guy said, if the food is good, what does it matter?  What if this trend was occuring in Indinapolis or Des Moines or Jackson Hole, would you still feel the same?  It seems more that you just dislike Vegas itself.  Clearly I am trying to read your mind so take it with a grain of salt....

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End of the world? Did I say that?

You're absolutely right about my feelings about Las Vegas. And, being human, it of course does color my judgement about all things related to the city. But I did have a good - if not outstanding - meal there. If the trend continued in any of the 3 cities you mentioned, I should be quite surprised but in a very different way

Anyway, I love salt so I'm happy to take anything with a grain or two.

[moosnsqrl]

And moonsqrl, I totally see your point and to some extent agree on the strip-mall-ness of Vegas, but the first thing that pops into my mind when I think of "great restaurants" and "mall" together isn't Vegas--it's the Time Warner center in NY.  Stay at the Mandarin, eat at per se, Masa, Bouchon, Cafe Gray, etc. and fly out

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Good point. Move Time Warner a bit south into the garishness of Times Square and there you are - Vegas east! But drawing that parallel makes me think of "The Chef has lost his shoes" in Ruhlman's "Reach Of" book. And that kind of makes me sad about the whole mega-restaurant/mega-chef world.

[Busboy]

It's interesting to note that, in his new perch on Bloomberg, Richman gave an ultimately favorable review to the NYC Atelier Robuchon:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...olumnist_elliot

So I guess his problem isn't with branches per se, but rather with branches in Las Vegas.

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I think Richman's problem is that he sees the Vegas dining scene as defined by money, glitz and absentee chefs, and does not lie with any individual restaurant or with chains per se. In addition, he is skeptical of a scene dominated by few high-end transplants as opposed to the more organic environment one finds in New York and other major cities.

[jsmeeker]

I guess I have to BUY the magazine to read the article?? Hmmm...

I'll go ahead and say it. (I think I may be the first to do so in this thread). I love Las Vegas. LOVE IT!! My "new" interest in fine dining makes it even better.

I've dined at a few places on Richaman's "OK" list.

L'Atelier de Joel Robuchon

Bouchon

Michael Mina

Emeril's New Orleans Fish House

Very good experiences at all of them.

The first three were back in late June of the year. Emeril's was last summer. Year before that, I dined at Picasso.

Is this "faux" fine dining? No way. Not in my opinion. Is a lot of other stuff in Vegas "faux"? Hell yeah. But so what. It's VEGAS. There are lots of things I love about Vegas. But this is about the dining scene, so I'll keep my comments there.

Where else does some guy like me have access to so many fine dining places by named chefs? New York? Maybe. San Francisco? Possibly. Paris? I guess. Vegas is a bit closer than all of those (a lot closer than Paris), and I don't speak French. Good accommodations are also more affordable. And these accommodations are convenient to all the food action. Also, it's accessible. I've had no issues obtaining reservations at any of those places. Easy. This isn't always the case in other cities. Tables can be tough to come by. This makes Vegas one of the best "dining destination" cities in the USA. Seriously. A trip to Vegas for the primary, if not sole purpose to have many fine dining meals is NOT a crazy proposition. It's really doable for anyone.

Absent big name chefs? As Fat Guy points out, that happens in lots of places.

I say, keep it up. I'll keep going back every year for more. Prior to dining at L'Atelier, a few of us strolled into the nextdoor "Mansion". The hostess was very nice and pleasant and was more than happy to allow us to take a look. We're already itching to try it next year. While some people go to Cheesecake Factory and wait 90 minutes for a table, I'll make a quick call to Bouchon for a dinner reservation, then head over there.

Edited September 7, 2006 by jsmeeker (log)

[Foodie-Girl]

Busboy, I completely agree.  I would love to see more a critical but balanced tone when discussing Vegas restaurants--for some it may be about the flash and the $$$, but I would hope there has to be more to it to lure Robuchon, Savoy, Boulud, Keller, Ducasse and even Trotter to open (or attempt to open) an establishment there.

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***Trotter DID have a restaurant in Las Vegas several years ago and at that time the hotel seemed more interested in getting diners in and out quickly. I ate there twice and found it excellent both times.

Fast-forward to a different climate in Las Vegas where hotels seem more interested in offering a more varied vacation experience. Long tasting menus have popped up in numerous restaurants.

For me Las Vegas offers fine dining, world-class shopping and fine art exhibits at the Venetian outpost of the Guggenheim as well as the Bellagio Fine Arts Gallery.

Dinners at Le Cirque, Valentino, Bradley Ogden (to name a few) are in no way sub-standard to dining in New York or any other major city.

I base my opinion on 35+ years of visits to Las Vegas and have witnessed a huge change for the better.

[nyokie6]

This article left me feeling that he just wanted to be contrversial. If others are raving about the restaurants opening in Las Vegas, then he wouldn't. Also, the last time I ate at Bartolotta (I've had 3 outstanding meals there) I saw the Chef, and Guy Savoy's family came to check that all was well(a pleasent 3hr time). Many lv places now have resident chefsand in many "outpost" or "chains" very stable wonderful chefs are providing our wonderful dining experiences! In fact only at a little "strip-mall" ma and pop type place would I generally expect the owner to be coking every time it was open.

In addition, not only is lv accessible in terms of reservations it is also accessible in terms of handicap accessible-we(husband and son) spent 3 weeks in Europe earlier this year and prehaps one could have been accessed by my friends wheelchair-she and I goto Vegas two times a year to try out the new places and eat at old favorites. Not everyone can go any place they would really like to.

[JohnL]

It's interesting to note that, in his new perch on Bloomberg, Richman gave an ultimately favorable review to the NYC Atelier Robuchon:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...olumnist_elliot

So I guess his problem isn't with branches per se, but rather with branches in Las Vegas.

←

I think Richman's problem is that he sees the Vegas dining scene as defined by money, glitz and absentee chefs, and does not lie with any individual restaurant or with chains per se. In addition, he is skeptical of a scene dominated by few high-end transplants as opposed to the more organic environment one finds in New York and other major cities.

←

Richman is always thought provoking.

And as usual, this piece is, I believe, about larger issues than just a critical review of Vegas restaurants.

Is a restaurant or a chef a brand?

If so then all the marketing questions/problems etc that arise when a brand is established and defined and, importantly, extended apply.

Or is a restaurant something else?

What is a dining experience?

What is "authenticity"?

Are the Vegas restaurants "authentic"--or ersatz?

Las Vegas is a theme park. Just as Epcot and Disney World offer "experiences" like a trip into space or sailing on a pirate ship--recreated experiences--not the real thing. Is Vegas offering a culinary "ride" or something else?

The restaurants in Las Vegas are not "organic" they exist not as destinations in and of themselves (for some they may) they exist just as the art work in the Bellagio, the volcano, the pirate ship the fountains, the shops et al exist. To provide an overall experience a draw to attract people in large numbers to entertain these people to be part of an atmosphere conducive to one thing and one thing only--GAMBLING!

These restaurants are an element of a marketing plan.

I do not think Richman is making any bold statements or reaching any conclusions. I believe he is asking questions. Provoking some thought and discussion.

He has written on this theme before.

In the piece he is fair--he looks at each restaurant in terms of the food--his overall experience--but he also looks at each in the context of the larger issues and in the context of Las Vegas.

It is obvious to me that if one is dining in a restaurant that is a spin off or clone or whatever you want top call it --the first question is: is the experience the same, similar? different? is the food the same etc?

The next logical step is to revisit the original and establish what that experience is for the comparison.

It can end here or one can look at some related philosophical issues--authenticity etc.

I believe Richman works on all these levels.

Some more successfully than others but he is thought provoking (provided one wants to think) beyond just basic restaurant reviewing.

[Swicks]

Im going to ask again, does anyone know where I can find Jeffery Steingarten's article on Las Vegas that was mentioned?

I searched the web and can't seem to find it.

Many thanks!

[Colgate]

Im going to ask again, does anyone know where I can find Jeffery Steingarten's article on Las Vegas that was mentioned?

I searched the web and can't seem to find it.

Many thanks!

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I don't think that you can get it on the Internet...it is however, on the newsstands now...(Kirsten Dunst is on the cover) and it's on something like pg. 788 (seriously!)

Edited September 11, 2006 by Colgate (log)

[Swicks]

thanks Colgate

Not sure i can buy a Vouge for myself (im male) so maybe I'll pull a dastardly deed and just rip the article out.

[Philanthrophobe]

Excellent article.

I live in Las Vegas. I've said this before and I'll repeat it: we're the Mall of America of the restaurant industry. We're also the Disneyland of gluttony. And all of the money Steve Wynn throws at the latest celebrichef won't change that. We're all about pretense and artifice and bright shiny objects. --which is great if you like that sort of thing.

The real test of any city's praise-worthiness regarding its cuisine should be "Can I get a decent tomato within city limits without having to shop at Whole Ass Foods?"

I'd give my firstborn to live within range of the farmers' markets, produce stands, and the fishing/crabbing sites I had available to me when I was a kid. [sob]

[jesteinf]

We had dinner last week at L'Atelier. I don't care who was or who wasn't in the kitchen. It was a great meal. Was it expensive? Sure it was, but I just come to expect that at the restaurants in the Strip hotels (whether or not there is a "celebrity chef" involved).

[jsmeeker]

The restaurants in Las Vegas are not "organic" they exist not as destinations in and of themselves (for some they may) they exist just as the art work in the Bellagio, the volcano, the pirate ship the fountains, the shops et al exist. To provide an overall experience a draw to attract people in large numbers to entertain these people to be part of an atmosphere conducive to one thing and one thing only--GAMBLING!

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A restaurant in Las Vegas can be as much a destination as a restaurant in New York City our in Yountville, California. Vegas casinos are gettting more and more revenue from NON-gaming sources now. If fact, in some places, I believe that more revenue comes from non-gaming than from gaming sources.

[JohnL]

The restaurants in Las Vegas are not "organic" they exist not as destinations in and of themselves (for some they may) they exist just as the art work in the Bellagio, the volcano, the pirate ship the fountains, the shops et al exist. To provide an overall experience a draw to attract people in large numbers to entertain these people to be part of an atmosphere conducive to one thing and one thing only--GAMBLING!

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A restaurant in Las Vegas can be as much a destination as a restaurant in New York City our in Yountville, California. Vegas casinos are gettting more and more revenue from NON-gaming sources now. If fact, in some places, I believe that more revenue comes from non-gaming than from gaming sources.

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Yes, they "can be."

The reality is--they aren't.

There are not enough foodies to sustain all these places even if Las vegas were to become a restaurant destination.

The main attraction is (and always will be, if I may be so bold) Gambling.

Remember Las Vegas tried the family destination --we are just like Disney world approach and it didn't work.

These restaurants are part of the side show.

Just like the Gucci outposts and Celine Dion and Wayne Newton and the volcano and Siggy and Roy.

The slot players got their all night (what here isn't all night) endless free buffets, now the upscale folks have Buchon and Bobby Flay.

I doubt that Thomas Keller (or anyone else) would be there were they not lured by casino owners with massive amounts of money. Ask Steve Wynn if he would rather have foodies or gamblers as his "guests."

This is what Richman is contemplating.

He deals with these restaurants on a basic--how's the food--level. But he is also looking at the raison d' etre of a restaurant and questioning what "authenticity" of food and experience meant, its importance, and how we apply it to restaurants and why one goes to a particular restaurant in the first place.

Even more elemental, why does any particular restaurant exist?

and--how important is this?

Why does Keller not open a "French Laundry" in Las Vegas?

Why did he choose not to call his New York effort--the French Laundry?

Are all of Emeril's restaurants offering the same food, the same experiences to diners? How about Wolfgang? Is the experience and food at his Las Vegas spot the same as his flagship?

Should they be? How about Guy Savoy? How has this "branding" impacted the dining industry?

I think all these questions are being contemplated by Richman.

So, one can approach things from a pure--is the food any good point of view. Or, one can contemplate the larger issues.

[Swicks]

JohnL,

I think you raise some good points, however in my opinion, Richman should have gone one way or the other, either review some of the better restaurants in Vegas or contemplate Vegas's dining scene as whole, where it fits in with the national strata, and whether or not it can be truly described as a dining destination. Both are good angles, I think he tried to do too much in short article and it came off as perfunctory.

I also think, and this may be an unpopular opinion, that their might be an east coast/midwest, and perhaps New York bias agains Vegas and its dining scene. It seems like a lot of people from the west coast travel to Las Vegas frequently, as do I. I think we are more comfortable with Las Vegas and what it is and isnt. Additionally, for many of us it has restaurant experiences not avaliable to us whereas those in the east and midwest have acess to Chicago and New York for these types of dining experiences. Being that we can't acess these otherwise we are more willing to accept them in a setting like Las Vegas, whereas a New Yorker might not....

Just my two cents...

-S

[JohnL]

JohnL,

I think you raise some good points, however in my opinion, Richman should have gone one way or the other, either review some of the better restaurants in Vegas or contemplate Vegas's dining scene as whole, where it fits in with the national strata, and whether or not it can be truly described as a dining destination.  Both are good angles, I think he tried to do too much in  short article and it came off as perfunctory.

I also think, and this may be an unpopular opinion, that their might be an east coast/midwest, and perhaps New York bias agains Vegas and its dining scene.  It seems like a lot of people from the west coast travel to Las Vegas frequently, as do I.  I think we are more comfortable with Las Vegas and what it is and isnt.  Additionally, for many of us it has restaurant experiences not avaliable to us whereas those in the east and midwest have acess to Chicago and New York for these types of dining experiences.  Being that we can't acess these otherwise we are more willing to accept them in a setting like Las Vegas, whereas a New Yorker might not....

Just my two cents...

-S

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Thanks! You have also made some good points.

You may be right about the perfunctory nature of Richman's piece.

The issues certainly demand some lengthy consideration.

If one reads Richman on a regular basis, I think he has delved into the notion of the Chef/restaurant as a brand issue on other occasions--so this latest foray may be best viewed in that context.

It is a hot topic--Ruhlman's book etc.

I disagree with your point about bias.

The same questions were asked ,for example, when Ducasse and Keller opened here in New York or JGV opens another local place.

Richman is not a reviewer to the degree that the local paper or magazine person would be wherein he has several meals over time at a place. He writes for a national publication and tries to cover larger themes.

Basically he went to Las Vegas, ate is several big name restaurants and gives an overview in the context of what kind of experience they offered. He asks some questions about what these places are and what they offer diners (I am not sure there are any definitive answers, he certainly doesn't provide any).

He did like some and disliked some others, no big deal.

Las Vegas is unique in that it is basically a "constructed" city with one singular purpose--gambling.

The casino owners are attempting to do two things--draw people into a place that has no "natural" (cultural) or more "organic" attractions--certainly little or no history. No physical attractions (even Lake Mead is manmade) and to entertain the people who are there. Even they would admit that just gambling on its own is not enough.

Thus the trend to offer additional experiences to gamblers via entertainment and now food.

If there is an Eiffel Tower for that "French" experience--then why not Robuchon!

The natural question to ask is--if there is a replica of the Tower there what is one missing from the experience of seeing the original?

If one can dine at Robuchon in Las Vegas then how does that experience compare to eating at the original.

And by the way, is the comparison valid? Can Robuchon offer a different experience but equal in quality?

I believe these questions need to be applied and answered on a case by case basis--there are no sweeping generalizations here.

Just like pondering: I ate a Per Se so should I bother going to Yountville?

I do think that Richman is concerned that people feel they can merely save time and money and go to Las Vagas instead of Paris or New York or wherever.

Just as I would say going to Atlantic City and gambling is not the same experience as going to Las Vegas or Monte Carlo or.....

[Swicks]

Interesting points....

[JeffKoontz]

JohnL,

I think you raise some good points, however in my opinion, Richman should have gone one way or the other, either review some of the better restaurants in Vegas or contemplate Vegas's dining scene as whole, where it fits in with the national strata, and whether or not it can be truly described as a dining destination. Both are good angles, I think he tried to do too much in short article and it came off as perfunctory.

I also think, and this may be an unpopular opinion, that their might be an east coast/midwest, and perhaps New York bias agains Vegas and its dining scene. It seems like a lot of people from the west coast travel to Las Vegas frequently, as do I. I think we are more comfortable with Las Vegas and what it is and isnt. Additionally, for many of us it has restaurant experiences not avaliable to us whereas those in the east and midwest have acess to Chicago and New York for these types of dining experiences. Being that we can't acess these otherwise we are more willing to accept them in a setting like Las Vegas, whereas a New Yorker might not....

Just my two cents...

My biggest fear is that while, Vegas establishments may be able to purchase the best ingredients, hire the best chefs (aka consultants), and create fantastic menu's and environment, the restaurants may not be able to hire enough competent staff to carry off the level of dining refinement expected of a $500 a head service. Paris will have an unlimited number of wait-staff who view their profession as a skilled trade, and view working in Roubochon or Savoy as the pinnacle of their career, whereas the waitstaff in Vegas has come from a completely different career path with little fine dining experience.

What kind of regular consistancy of service and food can we expect of a trade (fine dining) that has had no more than 10 years experience in Vegas. Surely they do not export the best of the best sommeliers, waitstaff and busboys from Chicago, NY or San Fran?

But nevertheless, where else would the money exist to attempt such pinnacles of cuisine? We should try them - why not? It sounds like in many cases, they deliver what they promise, and in some cases they don't. So maybe consistency isn't there, but the potential for a fine experience is definitely there. And as most of us are not going to Las Vegas for Roubochon specifically - why not give him a try while we are there. The alternative of throwing an equivalent amount of money at one armed bandits and green felt is no less risky with no more in reward.. and an equivalent amount of money can be gone through in as much time...

Yours,

Jeff

[HungryChris]

We leave for Las Vegas tonight. This will be our third trip there in two years. What do we like about it? Well, lets see, I want to start with Rosemary's, where we already have reservations for lunch tomorrow. This is an off the strip place (getting there from the strip brings you past Trader Joes as well as Whole Foods) that really doesn't look like much. On our first visit there I was amazed at how unusually good the service was for such a reasonably priced place. Every table, regardless of size, has their meals placed in front of the diner in unison and this can take the cooperation of many waiters at a time, when the food is delivered. This is a place that I think everyone who represents a waitstaff particularly if they think they do it well, should pay a visit to. Rosemary's makes the service at Gramercy Tavern look like kid's stuff. I happen to think Gramercy Tavern is one of NYC's finast pillars too, but watching the wordless communication between the waitstaff at Rosemary's is poetry in motion. If your dining guest leaves for the restroom, his or her napkin is quickly folded and placed back on the table. When they return, the chair is pulled out and pushed back in and the napkin placed back on their lap by someone who just happens by, like clockwork. It is really something to watch and I find it entertaining. This level of service is strived for by many, but accomplished by few. It makes me wonder if iron hand or kid gloves, or both were used in bringing it into reality.

All that aside, if crappy food is delivered impeccably, what good is the service? Rosemary's has it covered. The food is spot on. One of our favorites is the BBQ shrimp with the blue cheese cole slaw. I must admit that I have stolen the idea behind the cole slaw on a few occaisions with pretty good result. My only complaint is that the menu does not change that frequently. If you have a car in Vegas, Rosemary's is manditory!

Breakfast at Bouchon is another of our favorites providing the weather is good for outdoor dining. Their patio is simply awesome. In the really hot weather, getting there early before the sun gets a direct shot at you is a must. The food takes care of itself. It's all good. The last time we ate there Deb mentioned to the hostess as we were leaving that we tried to go to the Bouchon Bakery at Columbus Circle in Manhattan when it first opened, but were put off by the long lines. The hostess replied "Let me see if the chef is in" as she picked up the phone. After a few words on the phone she jestured to us that we should take a seat in the waiting area for a moment. Not long after that the chef appeared with 2 freshly made bouchon's wrapped to travel as an appology for our troubles at the Manhattan bakery. I think Deb went weak in the knees and I know I was more than impressed as I shook the young chef's hand. Does Bouchon have history........it does for us.

On to Lotus of Siam:

We were there once and as another poster mentioned we were there kind of late for the lunch. There were conflicting signs with different hours for the lunch service. They were breaking down the buffet and turning much of it into an employee meal. We were motioned in and seated nonetheless, but spent the next hour feeling like they were waiting for us to leave so they could eat. Our meals were more of an after thought rather than a thing of pride. I had to twist Deb's arm to go back, but I am convinced that we will do better this time. I have my heart set on the Nam Kao Tod (Chang Mai sausage, puffed rice with toasted peanuts) and the Northan Beef Laarb (which I shall order hot, Jason).

I am surprised that nobody has mentioned (that I have seen) Batista's Hole in the Wall. It is by no means fine dining, but is still a fun experience. They have their bottomless caraf of wine which I guess is why we don't drive there. The first time we were there the little old man with his accordian was an annoyance, but we joked about him so much (I'm on Fiyahh, tonight!!!!!) afterwords that we had to go back. I'm not sure if we will end up there this time.

I also have to mention the Vienna Beef hot dogs served at the race book in most of the Sun Coast hotels at 75 cents each, these are one of the tastiest deals in Vegas, baby!

Cheers,

HC

Edited September 24, 2006 by HungryChris (log)