Roman / Medieval Cooking

[Dukeofyork]

As strange as it might sound, I often find myself reading Latin texts with descriptions of grand banquets or lists of foodstuffs, and naturally I wonder what it would be like to have been present in the triclinium of Trimalchio or at Charlemagne's banquet table.

I've been to one 'medieval' feast, put on by a number of graduate students, that took recipes from a 14th century English cookbook. Some of it was good, some not so good ... what most intrigued me was the combinations of spices. English food in the Middle Ages seems to have been as strongly flavoured as Indian today. But there was also the interesting habit of combining dried fruit and meat; there was one pie filled with pork, currents and other fruit. I've found one website that lists many of the things I remember:

Medieval Recipes

I'm especially interested in Roman cooking, though, especially since a cookbook, the De Re coquinaria has survived. This site has it translated and adapted to modern conventions:

De Re Coquinaria

So, does anyone have any Roman / Medieval cooking experiences? Does anyone know of restaurants (anywhere) that cater to this sort of curiosity?

[Gifted Gourmet]

You might find some of this three page eGullet discussion interesting: From the desks of Vatel, La Varenne, and Company, Collecting antique/ancient recipes.

For instance; experts on Roman Antiquity note that "Apicius" identifies three men: A Roman Republican; Marcus Gabius Apicius; and the 5th century AD author (k/a Caeilus Apicius) of De re Coquinaria. Regarding the second individual, Pliny documented his technique of force-feeding geese with figs; foie gras' ancestor recipe? [Naturalis Historia 19:137]...

and don't miss this site, nor this There is an abundance of thoroughly interesting material on this topic!

[Andrew Fenton]

As GG said, there is a ton of web material on Roman cooking. If you read Latin, you can find a text of Apicius at the Latin Library (not complete) or download it at Project Gutenberg. There is also a Yahoo! group dedicated to Roman cooking.

And as I'm sure you already know, there are about a billion cookbooks in English that adapt Roman recipes. If you haven't, you might look at Andrew Dalby's; he's a first-rate scholar of ancient food, and while I haven't used this book, I imagine it's good.

[Carolyn Tillie]

I've done both Roman and Medieval "culinary re-creation" events as a caterer while living in SoCal. The whole Medieval thing is prevalent within the Society for Creative Anachronism where I cut my teeth on historical cooking. These people are more than just enthusiasts; they do incredible amounts of research in their re-creations of historical foods.

The best website as a resource I have found is the Gode Cookery you listed with subsequent links to those that GG has listed as well as many more. The major difficulty of dealing with the SCA is that it is difficult to only be part of the food contingent; one also has to concern one's self with the costumes, mannerisms, warfare, etc. It is an all-or-nothing gig which was why I decamped. But attending a "war" like Pensic could prove very enlightening if you wish to sample serious recreationist cuisine.

Unfortunately, it is not a restaurant-sort-of-thing. It will be through groups like the SCA where you will be able to experience the food first-hand. On the Roman front <ahem>, I can attest that there are a number of occult groups that pursue, prepare, and serve extremely authentic Roman feasts, but that opens a whole other bag of worms.

[Pontormo]

You might be interested in reading Alberto's report of a visit to a medievalizing restaurant in Tallinn that he found pleasingly un-Disneylike. This is a link to Il Forno, the food blog of the erstwhile host of the Italian regional forum here at eGullet.

Also, see this link to an episode of This American Life. Skim the text until you reach Act Three. Ira Glass visits a hokey medieval place with a brilliant young professor from The University of Chicago, Michael Camille (d. 2002), who does not react as one might expect despite the sardonic tendencies of the program's host.

Edited August 5, 2006 by Pontormo (log)

[Adam Balic]

A new critical edition of the Apicus work is about to be published, which should be very interesting as the most recent published (and on line) translations are not so great.

The spices in historical English recipes is very interesting, one of the frustrating things is that in most cases there is very little indication of exactly how much spice was used as the recipes very rarely give amounts. One recipe collection that does do this (a French work) indicates that the spice level used was quite mild, however there is likely to be huge amount of variation from region to region and person to person.

A few extant (or nearly so) English recipes are Medieval survivors. Receipes like Cornish Caudle Pie, Devonshire Squab Pie and Hindle Wakes are proberly not that far of the Medieval origins.

[Daniel Rogov]

As to Roman cookery, let us keep in mind that although often served in luxurious feasts, the dishes of Apicius and the dining habits of the Romans were unsophisticated enough that the great chef Careme referred to them as "fundamentally barbaric". Relying heavily on vinegar, honey, sea water, heavy and greasy sauces as well as on an overly generous abundance of spices and herbs, very few of the dishes adored by Apicius would be considered appealing to today's diners. In a phrase, if you're going to do either Roman or Medieval cookery, you have no choice but to modernize it (call that bastardization if you will), but if you serve the original, you'll have a good many hungry and frustrated people leaving your table.

[Carolyn Tillie]

One of the most amazing recent texts on Medieval cooking was Medieval Arab Cookery which is a translation of al-Baghdadi by Maxime Rodinson, A.J. Arberry, and Charles Perry.

Somewhat hard to find but brilliant reading!

[The Old Foodie]

One of the most amazing recent texts on Medieval cooking was Medieval Arab Cookery which is a translation of al-Baghdadi by Maxime Rodinson, A.J. Arberry, and Charles Perry.

Somewhat hard to find but brilliant reading!

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The Petits Propos Culinarires volume for November 2005, published by <a href="http://www.kal69.dial.pipex.com/shop/system/index.html">Prospect Books</a> is the new translattion by Charles Perry of A Baghdad Cookery Book (a.ka. The Book of Dishes, or Kitab al-Tabikh). It may be possible to back-order a copy.

It is usually easy enough to get copies of the Vehling translation of Apicius ("Cookery and Dining in Imperial Rome" via the online used book services.

Dont forget that the infamous Trimalchio banquet story is a satire, not a description of a real event!

Janet

[Adam Balic]

I don't belive this at all. Certainly, as in all cuisines there are items that will not appeal to all people. However, the Romans were not another species, they were just people, so why wouldn't we expect them to be capable of delicious food. Also, since there are no amounts of spices etc specified in the very few extant late Roman recipes we have, I wonder how we can know that their food was over spiced.

Regarding Medieval cooking, there are a great many people in the Middle-East and North Africa that eat food essentially the same as Medieval European food, yet I don't seem to see them leaving the hungry and frustrated.

In a phrase, if you're going to do either Roman or Medieval cookery, you have no choice but to modernize it (call that bastardization if you will), but if you serve the original, you'll have a good many hungry and frustrated people leaving your table.

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[Carolyn Tillie]

For all his much-maligned downfall, I actually give great credit to the introduction of ancient food (to me, anyway) to Jeff Smith, the Frugal Gourmet.

His book, The Frugal Gourmet Cooks Three Ancients Cuisines; China, Greece, and Rome brought the concept of culinary history to this young girl's attention. While simplified and modernized, it is a great start for an investigation before throwing one's self into the actual historical recipes.

[Daniel Rogov]

Adam, Hello....

Indeed the Romans were not of a different species, but tastes change and change radically over time and I'll stand with my point of view, offering descriptive evidence from Pliny the Elder, Josephus, Herodotus, and the archaeological evidence found at such places as Massada and Pompei. I'll also cite a few more modern historians, among those Magen Broshi and M.A. Powell as well as the curator of the Israel Museum in Jerusalem, Michal Dayagi-Mendeis.

The Romans, for example, were known connoiseurs of wine. Let us think first of what they did with their wines, especially those imported to Rome from Gaul, to make them enjoyable. The wines in their pure form, according to Josephus were "as bitter as Hades", and according to Pliny the Elder, "somewhat with the aroma one will find at the third bridge of the Tiber". In order to drink the wines they were diluted with sea water and then underwent the addition of honey, juniper berries, basilicum and a variety of other herbs and spices. Hardly today's cup of proverbial tea.

As to dining, let's keep in mind that during Roman days the meat of lions was prized and during Medieval days swans were considered a great delicacy. Lions and swans are considered largely inedible today and for good reason.

It is true that Apicius does not give specific amounts of the various herbs and spices to be used but looking at the mere combinations he uses together with such as liquamen, verjuice and other seasoning agents, many of the dishes even "look" unappealing on the reading.

As social habits change (during the heyday of Rome, women were barred from most meals unless they happened to be dancing girls, acrobats or whores), so do tastes.

Best

Rogov

[The Old Foodie]

I dont think we have any certainty at all about how ancient Roman (or other ancient) dishes actually tasted, or how greasy or otherwise they were. There are no quantities and very sketchy methods outlined in the extant recipes, so how can we tell? Sure, the combinations of ingredients may seem strange to us, but that is as much cultural as historical (I dont "get" peanut butter and jelly .....). All of the recipes that we are talking about require interpreting before "modernising", and interpreting is clever guesswork.

As for the over-spicing myth that food was prepared that way to disguise the taste of rotting meat - that myth refuses to die. If I may add a couple more sweeping generalisations to the discussion - spices were too expensive to be used in that way in Roman and Medieval times, and in any case the wealthy (who could afford the spices) were able to have their meat killed and eaten fresh. Food was spiced because the human animal loves tasty food.

Another thing is that where measurements are given, the value of the measurement has changed over time, so that an ounce or a pint (for example) were not the same weight or volume as they are today.

[Adam Balic]

I not believe that this thread is about Roman wine at all, but as you know wine consumed in the Roman wine varied a great deal from region to region and period to period. Tastes change form people to people (for instance some Romans would have thought us barbaric for not diluting our wine), but to highlight the most distasteful of practices to modern readers as standard inaccurate and misleading. Could you take the statement "The wine of Bordeaux is all revolting as they add bull's blood and eggs to the wine" seriously for instance?

I also think that actively trying to discourage people trying to develop an idea of what other people's food culture is like, especially in context of education as it is case, is against the spirit of those who are interested in food and food culture and insulting to those of us that are actively interested in historical foods.

We have [one] late Roman collection of recipes. Lion doesn't feature prominately and there are plenty of recipes that would appeal to modern Western, even unadventurous , palates. Simple, fun, delicious items can be prepared from these directions, and that is what food education should be about.

Verjuice (slightly sour grape or in some cases crab apples et al juice) is increasingly appearing on supermarket shelves and many people are now familar with SE-Asian fish sauce (liquamen), so I can't see a problem with thoughtful and unbiased people finding these ingredients distasteful.

[Daniel Rogov]

Adam....

Methinks you may become insulted and in turn a bit insulting a bit too easily. I am certainly not opposed to wanting to learn about the culinary habits of other people....and certainly not to historic interests.....in fact, one of my major interests is in precisely that field. My little book about culinary history and mythology is, for example, no in press.

What I am trying to do is say that dining habits and the preparation of food changes, sometimes drastically, and what may have been of fine taste to people in other periods of history may seem "of" or even repulsive to modern folk. That does not mean of course that the people of the future may perceive us as having "barbaric" habits.

I think as well that if you do your research you will find that the liquamen and the verjuice of Roman days was considerably different than that of today. In the same vein, wines were made differently in those days, by different processes and from different grapes. To add to that, they were shipped in the steaming hot holds of ships and by the time they arrived in Rome they were pretty well stewed.

Indeed you are correct in that some dishes have not changed.....porridge was and remains pretty much porridge. One of the questions is whether these are the kind of "treats" in which we are interested. Another question that has to be faced is whether we are interested in "romance" or in "realities".

[Adam Balic]

It isn't a question of "romance" or in "realities", it is a question of logic and accuracy. I would never claim that every historical dish would be delicious, that would be absurd, much like taking the opposite opinion. Based on the few roman directions on food preparations, there are very few facts to support the notion that this food would send a modern diner from the room, anymore if exposed to any other unfamilar cusine.

There are numerous ways of producing garum, liquamen or muria described, but no censensus on how it was produced. The details don't matter, the point is that modern sophisticated diners don't on mass object anchovies, nuoc mam nor belacan being included in various extant dishes.

Information about Roman fish sauce by the food scholar Sally Grainger.

Edited August 7, 2006 by Adam Balic (log)

[Daniel Rogov]

Adam...

Perhaps on this issue you and I will do best by agreeing to disagree on many of the issues.

[Eden]

Thanks Adam for posting the link on Garum, I'd missed that article.

In the spirit of finding the good in Roman and medieval recipes, here's a Roman recipe I was playing with a while back. The result was a sweet, but not too sweet biscuit, like italian wine cookies:

Cato on Must and Must Cakes

Flower & Rosenbaum translation:

Cato: Sweet Wine cakes are made as follows: Moisten 1 peck of wheat flour with must. Add aniseed, cumin, 2 lb of fat, 1 lb of cheese, and some grated bark of a laurel twig; shape and place each cake on a bay-leaf; then bake.

My rough interpretation (scaled down)

2 cups of AP flour

7/8 cup Must (used white grape juice concentrate*)

a pinch of ground anise

1/4 tsp cumin,

1/8 lb. fat, (I used organic veg shortening)

1 oz. cheese, queso fresco, minced small

1/4 tsp grated bay

9 bay leaves, small or partial

(plus another 1/4 c. flour for kneading)

Cut lard into flour with a pastry cutter

Mix in spices, then liquids, then cheese

Place on a well floured board & knead briefly till good cookie texture.

Roll to @ 1/2" thick & cut into 2" rounds.

Place 1 bay leaf (or piece) under each roiund on a greased cookie sheet & bake at 425 for 10 minutes. remove from pan & serve warm (peel bayleaf off of bottom)

made approx 1 dozen 2" cookies

*When I first made this recipe Must was not easily available in the Seattle area, and I haven't revisited it since. I went with white grape juice for a prettier colored cookie...

[Pontormo]

My personal knowledge of early culinary history in Western Europe is very limited, however, it is my understanding that the discussion of heavy seasonings, odd combinations and "exotic" meats concerns exceptional dining practices, such as banquets among the elite. The variety and quantity of produce, dairy, fats and protein we consume in a single meal is one of the major distinctions between contemporary diets in the "West" and those of Greco-Roman and medieval civilizations, no? Rarely if ever do I manage to eat the 10-12 recommended daily servings of grain-based products, preferring to focus on fruits and vegetables at this time of year. Yet, bread, porridges and other forms of cereals were the principal components of the two meals consumed by those fortunate enough to have something in the pantry* "back then." According to my reading, medieval Italy compares to Ancient Greece in referring to food as "bread" and "that which is eaten with bread."

*Yes, the roots of the word "larder" are Middle English according to one of the tools on my computer's dashboard. From lardier and further back, lardarium. Meat vs. panterie, paneter, panarius, panis, bread.

[The Old Foodie]

The word "meat" often means just "food" - not specifically animal flesh - in early English manuscripts and books. Presumably in other European countries too?

[Adam Balic]

My personal knowledge of early culinary history in Western Europe is very limited, however, it is my understanding that the discussion of heavy seasonings, odd combinations and "exotic" meats concerns exceptional dining practices, such as banquets among the elite.  The variety and quantity of produce, dairy, fats and protein we consume in a single meal is one of the major distinctions between contemporary diets in the "West" and those of Greco-Roman and medieval civilizations, no?  Rarely if ever do I manage to eat the 10-12 recommended daily servings of grain-based products, preferring to focus on fruits and vegetables at this time of year.  Yet, bread, porridges and other forms of cereals were the principal components of the two meals consumed by those fortunate enough to have something in the pantry* "back then."  According to my reading, medieval Italy compares to Ancient Greece in referring to food as "bread" and "that which is eaten with bread."

*Yes, the roots of the word "larder" are Middle English according to one of the tools on my computer's dashboard.  From lardier and further back, lardarium.  Meat vs. panterie, paneter, panarius, panis, bread.

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Quite right, but in general the diets of everyday folk are never really recorded in detail. The types of works that do survive, tend to survive because they don't have titles like "100 ways with mush".

Also, modern western diets are a pretty recent thing.

Regarding words and bread, "Lord" is thought to derive from OE "hláfweard", which means "Bread Keeper". Bread is the staff of live after all.

[Ohba]

Ah, bickering over the taste of Roman food. How can we not love the Gullet?