chocolate cake

sanrensho · June 6, 2006

Can you explain why the syrup? Moisture? Taste? you mean basicly taking the crust of the cake right?

Everybody did a pretty good job of answering your questions, so I won't repeat them. I'll just add that a genoise is less moist (I wouldn't call it "dry") than a typical American-style chocolate cake. As you surmised, the syrup adds moisture and taste. This also gives you more flexibility to adjust the texture of the cake for the desired mouthfeel, and flavor the syrup pretty much as your heart desires.

As for flavoring the simple syrup, raspberry and coffee liqueurs also traditionally go well with chocolate, in addition to the other suggestions.

miladyinsanity · June 6, 2006

I'm learning a lot here. I'm planning to make a genoise (not chocolate, an RLB recipe) on Friday. :smile:

glennbech · June 6, 2006

Okay.... This went "not so good" :-) Well. Im glad I can repeat the process a few times until Sunday!

I went for this recipe for my genoise chocolate cake. I was "fairly" happy with my result. ( link: http://www.joyofbaking.com/ChocolateGenoise.html )

I did everything according to recipe and the eggs + sugar puffed up real good, and about tripled in volume. I lost some volume while turning in the flour/cocoa powder/melted butter. But I guess this is Normal.

When It came to filling and glazing... I can only report of chaos and error :-) But I guess the good thing about chocolate mistakes is that you can still eat them .-)

I've summarized my questions and bad experiences below. If anyone would be kind enough to comment on any of them, I'll be very happy ! :-) I do realize that these questions are really basic, so... No hard feelings if some of them go unanswered.

I guess this will be the thread for people who help a total beginer bake a great cake for "Maia" on her baptism party on Sunday 11. July .-) The clock is ticking!

1) Im not sure about the "sponge". It ended up at about 2-3 cm (1-1.5 inches) in a 9" pan. How does this compare to your experiences for a cake with 4 large eggs, 125g sugar, 40g butter and 65 grams flour? I tried (as hard as I could) not to lose volume when whisking in flour and coca powder.

3) the Shape ended up a bit "uneven" on the top. That really made the top of the cake look "uneven". I guess that's why it's common to "level it" ? .-) Darn, should have kept that in mind. How about just re-arringing the two slices, using the bottom half on top? It had a pretty even cut. Great Idea? Not so good? If I do that, I don't have to throw anything away.

2) Gelatin. My Glaze recipe called for 28g gelatin. In Norway, gelatin usually comes in the form of "sheets" that you put in water for about 10 minutes before dissolving in water. The glaze recipe contained water, but I also had to dissolve the gelatin in water. I suddenly found my self with two options; Use portions of the glaze water recipe for melting the gelatin, or adding some extra. I added some etxtra (doh!) and my glaze became very fluid....

3) Straining. Some ganache recipes and glace recipies tells me to "Strain" the glaze... I mean, If I put that thick mass through a regular strainer, nothing will get through? For my "Straining" is running for example a chicken stock through the same tool I use for sifting flour. I guess "strain" has a different meaning/tool in baking? I really should try to get a cullinary dictionary .-)

4) When a recipe says 28g Gelatin, is that before of after soaking ? My 17g gelatin sheets had absorbed about 83g of water, totalling about 100g. I think I made a bad mistake when I threw a lot of it away ! Man..... this didn't go to well....

5) I got some "spots" on my cake. That is either A) Gelatine clumps.. Yuck! B) White chocolate that I put in. C) Over-heated chocolate --> cocoa butter... Any Ideas ?

I think I will stick with the genoise sponge. It was fun and easy to bake. I have a Kenwood Major Kitchen machine. It was fun to finally use it for some extensive mixing. The only thing I am a bit worried about is the "height". 2-3 cm is a bit difficult to cut horizontaly with precission.

I'm also thinking of using a white chocolate ganache filling. Just to break up the colours a bit. The cake might end up a bit on the "heavy" side I guess. But, I'm aiming for something people will take a thin slice of with their coffee.

Actions points for next cake ;

- Make it "Straight"! cut the sponge to an even surface.

- Make a proper filling with 3 parts chocolat to 1 part heavy cream

- Make the sponge higher (Or scale recipe by 1.2)

- Succeed with a gelatin glaze.

Some photo's of today's efforts :-)

Sponge. Please comment on height.

Finished result Not something I'd serve. But I think I'll still eat it .-)

Edited June 6, 2006 by glennbech (log)

sanrensho · June 6, 2006

Some random answers:

1. Did the cake actually deflate? A genoise shouldn't end up lower than the height when you filled the pan.

2. Borrow or buy a tall 7" or 8" pan if possible. You'll get a taller cake. The smaller cake will be easier for you to handle and slice into layers.

3. Barring that, get another 9" pan and double the quantities.

4. Get some dowels and use those as a guide to cut into layers and trim the top.

5. Smooth out the top of batter before putting it in the oven. Without deflating the batter.

6. About the glaze, are we talking about a ganache or glacage (glaze)? If it's a standard ganache, you shouldn't need to strain as long as you've got it thoroughly mixed. EDITED TO ADD: It sounds like a glacage from re-reading your post.

7. If you don't perfect the glaze in time, considering going with a ganache (easier) or just dusting with cocoa.

Overall, I think you did really well for your second ever (?) cake and first genoise!

Edited June 6, 2006 by sanrensho (log)

sanrensho · June 6, 2006

Also, consider using Pierre Herme's chocolate whipped cream (whipped ganache) for the filling, and ganache to cover.

375 g heavy cream

1 TBS sugar

65 g bittersweet choc. (chopped)

Bring cream and sugar to boil, take off heat and stir in chocolate. Mix well, cover and refrigerate overnight or 5 hours. Whip to desired consistency.

You may want to increase the above quantities by 50%.

glennbech · June 6, 2006

Some random answers:
1. Did the cake actually deflate? A genoise shouldn't end up lower than the height when you filled the pan.
2. Borrow or buy a tall 7" or 8" pan if possible. You'll get a taller cake. The smaller cake will be easier for you to handle and slice into layers.
3. Barring that, get another 9" pan and double the quantities.
4. Get some dowels and use those as a guide to cut into layers and trim the top.
5. Smooth out the top of batter before putting it in the oven. Without deflating the batter.
6. About the glaze, are we talking about a ganache or glacage (glaze)? If it's a standard ganache, you shouldn't need to strain as long as you've got it thoroughly mixed. EDITED TO ADD: It sounds like a glacage from re-reading your post.
7. If you don't perfect the glaze in time, considering going with a ganache (easier) or just dusting with cocoa.
Overall, I think you did really well for your second ever (?) cake and first genoise!
←

First of all; Thanks for taking the time :-)

1. No it actually inflated a bit in the centre of the cake. I was very happy with that.

I'll definitly go for your idea and get myself one or two 8" pans.

5. Great suggestion. Added to my checklist for my next cake.

6. We're talking a glacage... I will do a few more practice runs on it. I rushed a bit when making and, and had to down-scale the recipe "on the fly" (bad planning!).

If I can't perfect in in a couple of more tries, I'll just make 2 different ganaches, one for filling and one for frosting.

I DO want a dark mirror finish, So I'll put some effort into that part of the cake.

This IS my first cake ever. I really don't want to count the one that ended up on my floor/radiator/partly into the oven .-)

Edited June 6, 2006 by glennbech (log)

SweetSide · June 6, 2006

Keep going -- keep going. You're doing fine. You're learning a lot of different techniques all at once, so enjoy the experience and eating the test runs...

1) If it rose, good. These cakes are normally thin. Go with the recommendation for a smaller diameter pan if you have one. Or increase the recipe. Don't grease or flour the pan if you did last time. Also, give the pan a little spin to help level it -- like throwing a frisbee. This also helps it climb the sides. Don't bang it on the counter -- that will pop some of the air and de-gas it.

2) For the sheets, soak them in some water to "bloom" them. Water separate from the recipe. Then, when you need to use it, wring them out as much as possible. Don't over soak them or you will lose gelatin. If using powder, bloom it in the water that is called for in the recipe and melt it in the same water. Are you using the recipe I PM'd you or did you go with a different one?

3) Straining. If this is the recipe that I sent to you, it shouldn't be thick when you strain it. Your straining tool is the same one that you use for straining stock. Not a chinoise, but a thin screen bowl like thingy (technical terms there...) If it's thick, it is too cool. Speed is necessary here. All things should be waiting for that glaze. If you still have problems, go with a regular ganache, it is more forgiving, not as much "wow" factor, but still way tasty.

4) When a recipe says 28g Gelatin, is that before of after soaking ? Before -- see the note about the water above.

5) I got some "spots" on my cake. That is either A) Gelatine clumps.. Yuck! B) White chocolate that I put in. C) Over-heated chocolate --> cocoa butter... Any Ideas ? Any of the above.

"But, I'm aiming for something people will take a thin slice of with their coffee. "-- Exactly what this cake should be... With any kind of filling... White or chocolate or mocha or mint or... your choice.

Let round 2 begin...

Desiderio · June 7, 2006

Some random answers:
1. Did the cake actually deflate? A genoise shouldn't end up lower than the height when you filled the pan.
2. Borrow or buy a tall 7" or 8" pan if possible. You'll get a taller cake. The smaller cake will be easier for you to handle and slice into layers.
3. Barring that, get another 9" pan and double the quantities.
4. Get some dowels and use those as a guide to cut into layers and trim the top.
5. Smooth out the top of batter before putting it in the oven. Without deflating the batter.
6. About the glaze, are we talking about a ganache or glacage (glaze)? If it's a standard ganache, you shouldn't need to strain as long as you've got it thoroughly mixed. EDITED TO ADD: It sounds like a glacage from re-reading your post.
7. If you don't perfect the glaze in time, considering going with a ganache (easier) or just dusting with cocoa.
Overall, I think you did really well for your second ever (?) cake and first genoise!
←
First of all; Thanks for taking the time :-)
1. No it actually inflated a bit in the centre of the cake. I was very happy with that.
I'll definitly go for your idea and get myself one or two 8" pans.
5. Great suggestion. Added to my checklist for my next cake.
6. We're talking a glacage... I will do a few more practice runs on it. I rushed a bit when making and, and had to down-scale the recipe "on the fly" (bad planning!).
If I can't perfect in in a couple of more tries, I'll just make 2 different ganaches, one for filling and one for frosting.
I DO want a dark mirror finish, So I'll put some effort into that part of the cake.
This IS my first cake ever. I really don't want to count the one that ended up on my floor/radiator/partly into the oven .-)
←

I just wanted to add that a mirror like finish works much better on a mousse cake type ,the type you construct ( I do use a lot of technical terms dont I :hmmm: ),sorry not sure the name in english ,but the one that usually use a base like genoise and the different layers of mousse etc,and finish with the mirror like glaze on top of the mousse layer .On top of a simple layer of genoise or cake in general the effect can be obtained with a simple ganache I believe.Another thing you might want to consider is to use a little amount of jelly ( melted and filtered ) on top of the final layer you will put the glaze on ,so it spreds easyer and smoother, just a thin thin layer ,its used on some version of Sacher torte , that you might shoyld consider doing as well , since is a great chocolate torte.

Another thing ,you need to melt the gelatine before use it,like blooming it in water ( depends how thick it is , in Italy we have those sheets as well and I use to get either the really thin that need to be soaked in cold water or the thick in warm water, then I usually squize the water and in a little pan very little one I used to melt the gelatine before use it ,I believe you can do it in the microwave as well , never tryed though ,and yes I think you should be able to strain the mass cause usually at soon as you have mixed everything you strained it and it should be still very fluid.

Oh well Good Luck Glenn hope everything turns out great.

Edited June 7, 2006 by Desiderio (log)

CanadianBakin' · June 7, 2006

I happen to have a picture of a genoise/mousse/glaze cake like Desiderio is talking about. I made it at a pastry class I was taking.

It's not perfect but gives you an actual example. I have to admit the glazed one is not mine but the chef's. The cakes weren't chilled enough to glaze at school so we took them home to glaze. To get the mousse perfectly flat on top he assembled it in a cake ring and filled the mousse right to the top so he could scrap the top off with a spatula. We didn't have quite enough mousse to fill our rings that's why the top isn't smooth. If memory serves correct, the glaze was thick enough to still give a fairly smooth finish on top.

Edited June 7, 2006 by CanadianBakin' (log)

ludja · June 7, 2006

I"ve had problems with some genoise (non-chocolate) recipes rising enough also.

Here is a link to some of the responses I got when I described that my genoise had not risen very well. click

Ah, I see a problem with your recipe. Your buttering your pan for a cake that needs to cling to the sides of the pan to raise. Instead next time line the bottom of your pan with parchment paper, then leave your sides plain- un-buttered. Let the cake cool completely in the pan, when cool/room temp. take your knive and go around the inside edge to free your cake from clinging to the pan. Then invert and de-pan.
Also 4 eggs in a 9" cake pan is shy. You could double that recipe and bake it in the same 9" pan, then you'd have enough to split your layers easily. Lastly you don't need to use a springform pan, I think a reg. pan is better because you won't have a lip on the edge of your cake.
←

edited to add: I haven't retried this recipe yet with the suggestion to not butter the pan.

Edited June 7, 2006 by ludja (log)

Tweety69bird · June 8, 2006

Okay.... This went "not so good" :-) Well. Im glad I can repeat the process a few times until Sunday!
I went for this recipe for my genoise chocolate cake. I was "fairly" happy with my result. ( link: http://www.joyofbaking.com/ChocolateGenoise.html )
I did everything according to recipe and the eggs + sugar puffed up real good, and about tripled in volume. I lost some volume while turning in the flour/cocoa powder/melted butter. But I guess this is Normal.
When It came to filling and glazing... I can only report of chaos and error :-) But I guess the good thing about chocolate mistakes is that you can still eat them .-)
I've summarized my questions and bad experiences below. If anyone would be kind enough to comment on any of them, I'll be very happy ! :-) I do realize that these questions are really basic, so... No hard feelings if some of them go unanswered.
I guess this will be the thread for people who help a total beginer bake a great cake for "Maia" on her baptism party on Sunday 11. July .-) The clock is ticking!
1) Im not sure about the "sponge". It ended up at about 2-3 cm (1-1.5 inches) in a 9" pan. How does this compare to your experiences for a cake with 4 large eggs, 125g sugar, 40g butter and 65 grams flour? I tried (as hard as I could) not to lose volume when whisking in flour and coca powder.
3) the Shape ended up a bit "uneven" on the top. That really made the top of the cake look "uneven". I guess that's why it's common to "level it" ? .-) Darn, should have kept that in mind. How about just re-arringing the two slices, using the bottom half on top? It had a pretty even cut. Great Idea? Not so good? If I do that, I don't have to throw anything away.
2) Gelatin. My Glaze recipe called for 28g gelatin. In Norway, gelatin usually comes in the form of "sheets" that you put in water for about 10 minutes before dissolving in water. The glaze recipe contained water, but I also had to dissolve the gelatin in water. I suddenly found my self with two options; Use portions of the glaze water recipe for melting the gelatin, or adding some extra. I added some etxtra (doh!) and my glaze became very fluid....
3) Straining. Some ganache recipes and glace recipies tells me to "Strain" the glaze... I mean, If I put that thick mass through a regular strainer, nothing will get through? For my "Straining" is running for example a chicken stock through the same tool I use for sifting flour. I guess "strain" has a different meaning/tool in baking? I really should try to get a cullinary dictionary .-)
4) When a recipe says 28g Gelatin, is that before of after soaking ? My 17g gelatin sheets had absorbed about 83g of water, totalling about 100g. I think I made a bad mistake when I threw a lot of it away ! Man..... this didn't go to well....
5) I got some "spots" on my cake. That is either A) Gelatine clumps.. Yuck! B) White chocolate that I put in. C) Over-heated chocolate --> cocoa butter... Any Ideas ?
I think I will stick with the genoise sponge. It was fun and easy to bake. I have a Kenwood Major Kitchen machine. It was fun to finally use it for some extensive mixing. The only thing I am a bit worried about is the "height". 2-3 cm is a bit difficult to cut horizontaly with precission.
I'm also thinking of using a white chocolate ganache filling. Just to break up the colours a bit. The cake might end up a bit on the "heavy" side I guess. But, I'm aiming for something people will take a thin slice of with their coffee.
Actions points for next cake ;
- Make it "Straight"! cut the sponge to an even surface.
- Make a proper filling with 3 parts chocolat to 1 part heavy cream
- Make the sponge higher (Or scale recipe by 1.2)
- Succeed with a gelatin glaze.
Some photo's of today's efforts :-)
Sponge. Please comment on height.
Finished result Not something I'd serve. But I think I'll still eat it .-)
←

When you are adding your flour mixture to your egg mixture, try using a spatula to fold in the flour mixture very gently instead of whisking it in.

You should have ribbons in your egg mix before adding the flour.... what that means is that when you remove the whisk from the mix and let the mix drip back into the bowl, it should fall in ribbons and not dissapear back into the mix right away.

Keep at it! It's great when you finally get it right and bake a perfect cake!! :biggrin:

Tepee · June 8, 2006

Glenn, picture of cake and chocolate mirror glaze (follow link) using chiantiglace's recipe. clicky

SweetSide · June 8, 2006

Glenn, picture of cake and chocolate mirror glaze (follow link) using chiantiglace's recipe. clicky
←

Glenn (and Tepee), that's the same mirror glaze formula I gave you, only cut in half. I got it from the CIA baking book -- chiantiglace goes to CIA. So did my instructor... It really is a nice glaze.

glennbech · June 8, 2006

My "Goals" for Cake Version 2.0 was ;

- Make it "Straight"! cut the sponge to an even surface.

- Make a proper filling with 3 parts chocolat to 1 part heavy cream

- Make the sponge higher (Or scale recipe by 1.2)

- Succeed with a gelatin glaze.

- Experiment with some flavourings and decoration..

Here's the result:

- I was happy with my sponge. I still used 4 eggs, but eXtra LArge ones.

- The sponge was higher in the few places where I hadn't buttered the pan properly. I guess this is the proof of what people have been saying upthread. (It needs the pan to "cling" to)

- I leveled the cake and added a thin layer of chocolate to bind the crumbs, and fill some holes. Felt like a construction worker .-)

- I skipped the glaze, since I had some questions. Sweetside has been kind enough to PM me som clarifications, So I'll try again next time.

- It's impossible to see, but I used an almond flavoried White chocolate ganache between layers. It's impossible to see, but the result were more moisture. And that's a good thing I guess.

Some things I Myself think needs improvement ;

- It may be a bit on the "heavy" side. There's almost 3-4 mm of frosting on the cake. Some may consider this a bit "over the top" .-)

- I'll try not to butter/flour the pan, but put parchment paper in the bottom of it.

- I need a ganache in the middle of the layers that visible .-)

Comments and feedback is mostly welcome, please be hard on me, as I want to improve .-)

glennbech · June 8, 2006

When you are adding your flour mixture to your egg mixture, try using a spatula to fold in the flour mixture very gently instead of whisking it in.

That helped I believe .-)

Tweety69bird · June 8, 2006

Your last cake is quite an improvement! :biggrin:

Desiderio · June 8, 2006

Definatlly and improvement, it look quite nice. :biggrin:

ludja · June 8, 2006

....
- I'll try not to butter/flour the pan, but put parchment paper in the bottom of it.
...
←

Thanks for sharing the details of your experiments, glennbech! The last cake does indeed look very nice.

If you *do* try the pan preparation with no buttering and flouring of the sides of the pan I would be very interested to hear the results.

Thanks again,

ludja

Edited June 8, 2006 by ludja (log)

K8memphis · June 8, 2006

I want to selflessly volunteer to help you taste test :raz:

sanrensho · June 8, 2006

- It may be a bit on the "heavy" side. There's almost 3-4 mm of frosting on the cake. Some may consider this a bit "over the top" .-)
- I need a ganache in the middle of the layers that visible .-)
Comments and feedback is mostly welcome, please be hard on me, as I want to improve .-)

As others have noted, that's quite an improvement over your first effort. You deserve a big pat on the back.

Some suggestions:

-Are you leveling the top of the cake? (Hard to tell from the photo.) Doing so will give you a more even layer of frosting on the top of the cake.

-I agree, 3-4 mm of frosting on top is too much. The frosting (ganache?) your using also looks grainy to me. I would go with a pourable ganache, which will still give a nice shiny finish if mixed properly.

-Not sure what you mean by this comment: "I need a ganache in the middle of the layers that visible .-)"

-In addition to adding more cake/cake layers, another way to get more "height" out of the finished cake is to go with a lighter mousse-like filling.

SweetSide · June 8, 2006

I second the above and stress do not butter and flour the pan.

Do you have a cake ring or a springform pan same size or smaller than your cake pan? If so, try "building" the cake in the ring, using the sides for support for a thicker mousse or ganache filling. If it is relatively light, you can stack it up in there. The white chocolate almond ganache sounds good. If you make it thinner and chill it, you can whip it.

MUCH improved -- looks good. Eat that one, and try again....

glennbech · June 9, 2006

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/pacificnw...0506/taste.html

In This recipe, the "sponge" is made in a rectangular pan, and 2 x circular 8" pieces are "cut out" after baking. This means that baking times are reduced. Howevver; This also means a lot of "waste" right ?

I guess the reason is to keep the cake flat, and baking times short (to avoid brown colour maybe?). Can I split the batter in 2, and bake in two 8" pans?

Baking the entire recipe in an 8" pan is difficult (I tried). After 30 minutes the crust is turning brownish, and the batter still isn't solid.

Another question; If a recipe calls for 1 cup of vegetable oil, can I substitute that with 1 cup of melted butter?

glennbech · June 9, 2006

The white chocolate almond ganache sounds good. If you make it thinner and chill it, you can whip it.

So... If I make a ganache with for example equal parts of chocolate and cream, i can "puff it up" by whisking by hand or in my kenwood after it has chilled? That would be real sweet .-)

SweetSide · June 9, 2006

The white chocolate almond ganache sounds good. If you make it thinner and chill it, you can whip it.
So... If I make a ganache with for example equal parts of chocolate and cream, i can "puff it up" by whisking by hand or in my kenwood after it has chilled? That would be real sweet .-)
←

Exactly. Use equal parts chocolate and cream and flavor it with an extract or liqueur of your choice. Here's one that I put in RecipeGullet CLICK that is mocha flavored. If you want almond flavor, you can easily sub out amaretto for the 1T hot water and the espresso powder. You can also use some almond extract. Just do overdo on the quantity of liquid you add or you won't get it to whip.

This stays fairly soft in the middle of the cake. To make it firmer, you can use slightly more white chocolate.

Desiderio · June 9, 2006

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/pacificnw...0506/taste.html
In This recipe, the "sponge" is made in a rectangular pan, and 2 x circular 8" pieces are "cut out" after baking. This means that baking times are reduced. Howevver; This also means a lot of "waste" right ?
I guess the reason is to keep the cake flat, and baking times short (to avoid brown colour maybe?). Can I split the batter in 2, and bake in two 8" pans?
Baking the entire recipe in an 8" pan is difficult (I tried). After 30 minutes the crust is turning brownish, and the batter still isn't solid.
Another question; If a recipe calls for 1 cup of vegetable oil, can I substitute that with 1 cup of melted butter?
←

If you substitute the butter with the oil you will have a different thing, actually the oil will give you a more moit cake than the butter version you are thinking , butter tend to solidify after cools down ,the oil one will leave it moist.

I dont see the use of baking a rectangular cake and cut it out , just have 2 circular pans and either divide the batter if its enough to fill them both at least half the way , or make double batter.Another thing try to turn upside down the cake , meaning use the bottom of the cake as the top to decorate , it will be flat and bumpless .It sounds you have some trouble with your oven because the cake turns brown and the batter is still uncooked ( right?) ,maybe lower your oven , again you arent cooking a sourdough this time Glenn :biggrin: ,another thing usually they suggest to put a little container of water on the bottom of your oven for chocolate cakes ( dont know if would help you ).Try to stick with a recepie that is good ( expecially if someone here gave you the recepie , probably is a good one :raz: )and work on that ,with only few days to try you should get comfortable with at least one process.

Just my , how do you guys say, 2 pennys ?Hehe, good luck.

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