What do you think of skate?

carswell · May 5, 2005

If it smells of ammonia throw it away!
I've never smelt ammonia in a commercial kitchen off skate, thats when we throw it away, it'll taste of ammonia with salt or lemon!
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Just checked Larousse Gastronomique, the book that first walked me through skate wing cookery, and am pleased to report that my memory's not playing tricks:

The pinkish-white flesh should be washed several times to get rid of the smell of ammonia, which is most marked with the fish is quite fresh.

Also, I've read somewhere that the reason skate is often served with brown/black butter is because butter forms an ammonia neutralizer when it browns. The reference is probably in one of my cookbooks, so chances are good I can cite chapter and verse if you insist.

PassionateChefsDie · May 5, 2005

If it smells of ammonia throw it away!
I've never smelt ammonia in a commercial kitchen off skate, thats when we throw it away, it'll taste of ammonia with salt or lemon!
←
Just checked Larousse Gastronomique, the book that first walked me through skate wing cookery, and am pleased to report that my memory's not playing tricks:
The pinkish-white flesh should be washed several times to get rid of the smell of ammonia, which is most marked with the fish is quite fresh.
Also, I've read somewhere that the reason skate is often served with brown/black butter is because butter forms an ammonia neutralizer when it browns. The reference is probably in one of my cookbooks, so chances are good I can cite chapter and verse if you insist.
←

We're not in the early 1900's I would hope that a fishing markets have moved on a bit since then, I personally wouldn't touch anything that smelled of ammonia I love Skate and if when I'm cooking it it smells of ammonia I know it will taste of it from experience! Also there is no real refrences to small Skate being pan/fried just large Skate being poached, I know that as it comes in it smells slightly but on a rinse it's gone after several days the ammonia gets stronger until its unbearable. I've put Skate Buerre Noisette on a menu as special more times than I can count, I really do Love Skate and think it's under-rated! Now is this because too many people have eaten bad Skate?

I accept what you saying just looked in Herings Dictionary and all the garnishes for Skate are strong flavours, Vinegar, Lemon, parmesan(All flavours used to mask) but now a days there is no reason for it to be strong smelling, surely if it was key component Bocuse would mention it and certainly not use it? He does add vinegar but looking at the recipe I think it's the same reason we add a bit to fish stock to set the fish protein thats loose in the water so we can skim it off rather than leave it on the fish! To add 200ml (thats one fifth vinegar)to every litre of liquor is masking, not the same as a few tablespoons per pint(Bocuse)

Most of these recipes where designed around large skate and with travelling in those days I would expect it to smell and need masking, but with refridgerated vans there is no need now a days! Even Buerre Noisette we use a little vinegar my guess is that its the acid counteracting the alkaline(Ammonia) nothing to do with the butter, but I may be proved wrong thats just based on science!

Bond Girl · May 5, 2005

As tommy once said to me a little bit of brown butter with skate wings will do just fine. I tend to agree with him, but I've steamed skate wings as well and served with grapefruits and meyers lemon marmalade which worked beautifully. And, this weekend I'll probably try skate lightly seared with a sauce of pureed ramp greens.

Neal Gallagher at Oceana served skate stuffed with katz pastrami, but that one you are best off going to Oceana for it.

UkFoodie · May 5, 2005

I was read a recipe that called for the boney side of the skate wing to be seasuned? I have always fillet skate from the bony cartilige?

What are other people's experience.

balex · May 5, 2005

There is a very nice Roman soup with a broth of skate with broccoli and borken up spaghetti. It's quite spicy and delicious. I can post a recipe if you want.

Alex

ludja · May 5, 2005

You may also want to check out this extensive thread on skate: click

gus_tatory · May 5, 2005

You may also want to check out this extensive thread on skate: click
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wow--thanks ludja and everyone!

pam claughton · May 5, 2005

Skate should never smell of ammonia, not in this day and age. If it does, throw it out. It is one of the most perishable fish, especially in the summer when temps go up and fish may sit around for up to a week (under ice) before making it to the market. You should cook it the same day you buy it.

I actually recently took a class on odd fish like skate and monkfish. The skate wings we had were delicate, about a quarter inch thick, and the best way we learned to prepare them was to saute for just a few minutes, as they will cook quickly. A classic saute in butter, lemon and capers is nice, just dredge the skate in flour first.

I also interviewed another chef, and got a nice simple recipe for skate using white wine, and there is a recipe here for monkfish that could work for skate as well. here is the link to the article, if you don't feel like reading it, just scroll to the recipes at the bottom.

:) Pam

http://www.capecodonline.com/cctimes/food/treasurefish13.htm

Bob Musa · May 5, 2005

my wife uses a modified veal picata or veal marsala recipe and substitutes the skate for veal.

carswell · May 5, 2005

There is a lot of misinformation flying about in this and the referred to thread (thanks, ludja, I can't believe I skipped it until now).

First and foremost, as someone in that thread pointed out — not that participants seemed to notice — skates excrete urea, not urine, from their skin. Definition of urea from www.m-w.com:

a soluble weakly basic nitrogenous compound CO(NH2)2 that is the chief solid component of mammalian urine and an end product of protein decomposition, is synthesized from carbon dioxide and ammonia, and is used especially in synthesis (as of resins and plastics) and in fertilizers and animal rations

The ammonia smell in skate comes from the breakdown of urea into carbon dioxide and ammonia. This does not take days to occur. The smell is therefore not an indication that the flesh is decomposing or even past its "best before" date. What it most likely means is that skate was not skinned upon capture and that some of the skin's urea has leached into the flesh and broken down. And when that happens, brining the fish as one does with shark, poaching it in a vinegar solution and/or serving it with a sauce that includes vinegar and/or acrolein (formed when butter browns) effectively counteracts the ammonia.

Most of the above information comes from my most trusted fishmonger, whom I just got off the blower with. And, by the way, he scoffs at the notion that ammonia is an indicator of decomposition. "Since when does decomposing fish smell like ammonia?" was more or less how he put it. "Cheese, yes. Fish, no."

A number of websites support this view. This one, for example: How to prepare skate for cooking. You can find others (and, yes, ones that contradict it) by googling skate ammonia (include -hockey to refine the results). For what it's worth, it's also the position taken by Yvonne Young Tarr in her normally reliable The Great East Coast Seafood Book.

PassionateChefsDie · May 5, 2005

There is a lot of misinformation flying about in this and the referred to thread (thanks, ludja, I can't believe I skipped it until now).
The ammonia smell in skate comes from the breakdown of urea into carbon dioxide and ammonia. This does not take days to occur. The smell is therefore not an indication that the flesh is decomposing or even past its "best before" date.
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As you said breakdown so the longer it's left the worse the smell will get, more time more smell! According to the other thread the Icelandics agree and wait for it to smell its worse which happens with time, surely this is an indication of breakdown, decomposistion? Though thank you for the reason why! Did wonder why it happened, though it also does it with fish thats got no skin but I'm guessing thats down to residual urea being left.

Guess it a bit like game some like it well hung others like not, we'll never no the answer but someone in other thread never tasted before and just landed it and said it had no smell of ammonia, but that just backs up about skin being left on for to long!

Edited May 5, 2005 by PassionateChefsDie (log)

carswell · May 5, 2005

As you said breakdown so the longer it's left the worse the smell will get, more time more smell! According to the other thread the Icelandics agree and wait for it to smell its worse which happens with time, surely this is an indication of breakdown, decomposistion? Though thank you for the reason why! Did wonder why it happened, though it also does it with fish thats got no skin but I'm guessing thats down to residual urea being left.
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You're drawing a correlation that doesn't necessarily exist. A skate caught one day ago whose flesh contained a high amount of urea might well have a stronger ammonia smell than a skate caught four days ago but skinned immediately and expertly. And presumably at some point all the urea in the flesh breaks down, meaning the amount of ammonia no longer increases.

While I'm thankfully unfamiliar with Iceland's skata, the objectionable odour is surely more than just ammonia since the fish is allowed to rot or ferment or whatever for weeks. Sweden's urea-free surströmming, whole herring that are salted and left to ferment for weeks if not months, smells to high heaven. (People open the cans outdoors under running water and allow the open cans to breathe for a while before bringing them in so the smell can dissipate. And when they're brought in, you're supposed to sit close to a can for five minutes in order to kill your sense of smell. Then and only then do you begin eating.) Since the skata skate is unskinned, it's no surprise that ammonia is a big component of the smell. But that's not what we're talking about here.

PassionateChefsDie · May 5, 2005

Guess it a bit like game some like it well hung others like not!

I quote myself! But am interested is there facts to say that a fish creates more urea at different times and does it really affect the taste, I've seen no refrences to urea being in the flesh just with the skin? Have followed link from other thread(I've become fascinated!) to deep sea fishing and the correct preperation he just states proper removal of skin immediately and that it should never smell of ammonia if preped properly at sea! It seems lazy fisherman are the reason it smells we both agree that the longer it's left on the more tainted it becomes!

My synospsis may of been wrong but it definitely seems to be affected by time, just how long the skin has been left on

P.S.

We carry on like this and we might finish what they started on the other thread, I personally would never go for a piece that did smell after I rinsed it, and wouldn't be happy serving it!

Have found links for acrolien but apart from being a pollutant I also found this re 'When a fat is heated strongly in the presence of a dehydrating agent such as KHSO4, the glycerol portion of the molecule is dehydrated to form the unsaturated aldehyde, acrolein' Now what your dehydrating agent would be, the re KHSO4 is Potassium Hydrogen Sulfate but whilst cooking fish would Lemon/vinegar be classed as a dehydrating agent, I didn't know but after googling I found this 'Dehydrating agents, such as sulfuric acid, sodium hydroxide, calcium oxide, and glacial acetic acid(100%Not for chips) I am intrigued to know where you got your reference for acrolien, I certainly dont cook with any of those ingredients! The only other reference is to bad smelling wine I'm not sure I want acrolien in my dish its toxic.

Edited May 6, 2005 by PassionateChefsDie (log)

carswell · May 6, 2005

But am interested is there facts to say that a fish creates more urea at different times and does it really affect the taste, I've seen no refrences to urea being in the flesh just with the skin? Have followed link from other thread(I've become fascinated!) to deep sea fishing and the correct preperation he just states proper removal of skin immediately and that it should never smell of ammonia if preped properly at sea! It seems lazy fisherman are the reason it smells we both agree that the longer it's left on the more tainted it becomes!
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I also wonder about the effect of machine skinning.

We carry on like this and we might finish what they started on the other thread, I personally would never go for a piece that did smell after I rinsed it, and wouldn't be happy serving it!

Agreed. If your skate is pristine smelling when raw, the chances it will develop an ammonia odour when cooked are slim. So, it's your safest bet. But a slight ammonia odour can be dealt with and doesn't mean the fish isn't fresh.

I am intrigued to know where you got your reference for acrolien

Citing Eduard Pomiane, naguerre, for one, mentions it upthread. Yvonne Young Tarr does so in The Great East Coast Seafood Book. I also have a vague memory of reading about it in a food science book, maybe Harold McGee; his new edition of On Food and Cooking is on my wish list, so I'm afraid I can't check it. And of course the Web has references galore. For example:

Chemically, acrylamide is the primary amine of acrylic acid and is merely part of a variety of low molecular weight by-products created from the pyrolytic reactions of fats and oils with carbohydrate molecules. Acrolein produces the classic acrid, bitter smell when we burn butter in a frying pan.
http://www.foodsafetymagazine.com/issues/0...colchem0304.htm

19.2.6 Butter
(i) Heat butter. The fat separates from salt and water. Heat too hot, as in deep drying. The fat cracks to form the unsaturated hydrocarbon acrid smelling tear producing acrolein.
http://www.uq.edu.au/_School_Science_Lessons/topic19.html

Canola oil fumes are still much safer than those from butter, Crisco or other animal fats, he said, and canola is considerably healthier as a salad dressing or other food.
The study focused only on inhaled toxins and not those ingested by eating, said Angel Carbonell Barrachina, a visiting Spanish professor of food technology who worked with Sidhu and visiting Fulbright scholar Andres Fullana.
The trio compared canola and olive oils because they are the most commonly used heart-healthy cooking oils in the United States and Spain, respectively. The toxins that reached dangerous levels were acetaldehyde, which the Environmental Protection Agency calls a "probable human carcinogen," and acrolein, a possible carcinogen labeled "extremely toxic to humans."
"Even in short-term exposure, both these compounds have been associated with irritation in the eyes and respiratory tract," Sidhu said. "For people with respiratory problems like asthma, they can cause severe attacks."
http://foodhaccp.com/msgboard.mv?parm_func..._msgnum=1010340

The critical temperature (or smoke point) for olive oil is infact definitely higher than the temperature at which food is usually fried. Other fats such as butter and margarine, have a lower critical temperature and while frying, acrolein and other oxidation derivatives form [...]
http://www.chefwalter.com/WP-Olive-oil-news.htm

The exceedingly irritating decomposition products are chiefly due to the formation of acrolein (allyl aldehyde, C2H3.CHO), which is also formed when fats are burned [...]
http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed/eclectic/ki...glycerinum.html

Olive oil should never be used for deep frying. The 'smoke point' is the temperature at which an oil begins to smoke. At about 20 degrees below that point, the oil begins to decompose, at the smoke point it begins emitting noxious fumes of acrolein.
http://www.foodreference.com/html/vol-6-no_8.html

I certainly dont cook with any of those ingredients! The only other reference is to bad smelling wine I'm not sure I want acrolien in my dish its toxic.

As I understand it, acrolein is toxic if inhaled, not (or less so) if ingested. And the amounts released when making a brown or black butter are small. To be on the safe side, turn on your vent when preparing it. But bear in mind that people have been making and eating beurre noisette for decades if not centuries with no ill effects.

Tess · May 6, 2005

I've found skate (boned and skinned) very good for preparing in a misoyaki "marinade" and I'm going to try a sake-leek one soon. You have to watch the timing because the skate absorbs anything it sits in almost too well.

PassionateChefsDie · May 6, 2005

Its defo classed as a Hazard both in America and here(It's classed as a carcinogenic)!

http://www.inchem.org/documents/ehc/ehc/ehc127.htm WHO document duplicated http://www.acrylamide-food.org/

Kinda of got the impression when it smokes and brings tears to your eyes this is when it's given off, in Buerre noisette(No bitter smell or smoke, when making) I would say there is a lot less, you just colour the residue. Though I'm still interested in whats happening when the acrolien and ammonia combine! And how many Chefs can say thanks to all that butter I cooked it shortened my life!

Acrolien is now being measured by commercial food companies in products that are produced on mass scale it seems to turn up, when ever glycerol is broken down, telling you I've learnt more in the last 48 hours than I ever knew, it even is found in potatoes guessing its every where glycerol is cooked. It seems to be a subject that goverments dont know what do with it in relation to food manufacturing, do you just tell every one its in everything or monitor it and set bench marks for the industry!

http://www.foodsafetymagazine.com/issues/0...colchem0304.htm

Valid point about machine skinning, does leave a membrame! I have cooked it never really smelled of ammonia, but think we need a marine biologist here now, from my experience the membrame just makes it curl(I wondered what made it curl sometimes and not other times.)!

You got me wondering though occasionaly when the butter flares or oils, seen this happen on Scallops it will give of a petroluem taste(espeicially if it's not put out), I'm hazarding a guess this is acrolien at work!

Glad someone merged the thread, thanks who ever!

Edited May 6, 2005 by PassionateChefsDie (log)

ellencho · December 17, 2005

I've always enjoyed skate but have never cooked it myself. I now have two lbs of beautiful fresh smelling skate. I'm thinking of doing a skate meuniere type dish with one lb of the skate, but I was also interested in pan frying the other lb for textural contrast. Any advice for either applications before I get started?

jackal10 · December 17, 2005

See above. What you want is Skate with black butter (capers, vinegar)

ellencho · December 17, 2005

I know how to do the actual meuniere type sauce and all, but most of all I'm afraid of overcooking or undercooking the fish. I once had undercooked skate and it was not very good to eat.

budrichard · December 17, 2005

There is a lot of misinformation flying about in this and the referred to thread (thanks, ludja, I can't believe I skipped it until now).
First and foremost, as someone in that thread pointed out — not that participants seemed to notice — skates excrete urea, not urine, from their skin. Definition of urea from www.m-w.com:
a soluble weakly basic nitrogenous compound CO(NH2)2 that is the chief solid component of mammalian urine and an end product of protein decomposition, is synthesized from carbon dioxide and ammonia, and is used especially in synthesis (as of resins and plastics) and in fertilizers and animal rations
The ammonia smell in skate comes from the breakdown of urea into carbon dioxide and ammonia. This does not take days to occur. The smell is therefore not an indication that the flesh is decomposing or even past its "best before" date. What it most likely means is that skate was not skinned upon capture and that some of the skin's urea has leached into the flesh and broken down. And when that happens, brining the fish as one does with shark, poaching it in a vinegar solution and/or serving it with a sauce that includes vinegar and/or acrolein (formed when butter browns) effectively counteracts the ammonia.
Most of the above information comes from my most trusted fishmonger, whom I just got off the blower with. And, by the way, he scoffs at the notion that ammonia is an indicator of decomposition. "Since when does decomposing fish smell like ammonia?" was more or less how he put it. "Cheese, yes. Fish, no."
A number of websites support this view. This one, for example: How to prepare skate for cooking. You can find others (and, yes, ones that contradict it) by googling skate ammonia (include -hockey to refine the results). For what it's worth, it's also the position taken by Yvonne Young Tarr in her normally reliable The Great East Coast Seafood Book.
←
.

Better get another fish monger!

If one does a goggle for ammonia odor fish, one finds references such as http://www.freshfish4u.com/discussion/messages/1087.shtml.

I will say it again and stand by it, fish, actually any seafood, that smells of ammonia is decomposing and we throw it away

Edited December 17, 2005 by budrichard (log)

ellencho · December 18, 2005

I ended up just sorta flying by the seat of my pants with my fingers crossed on this one. And it worked. I made both the skate meuniere and pan fried skate.

It might look like the fried skate plate is greasy, but that's mostly leftover residue from the meuniere and potatoes I ate before.

Woohoo! And the best part of it all? The skate had been cleaned of its cartilage at the fish market so it was super easy to eat!

Malkavian · January 18, 2007

Just to add my experiences to this thread, I found skate to be fairly palatable after soaking in milk for a few hours, then cutting into nuggets, dusting in flour and frying until golden. FWIW, the cuts i had were VERY ammonia smelling before the milk soak.

Reminded me very distinctly of scallops in that presentation.

IgnatzH · January 18, 2007

Actually, the compound in the skin of skates and and some of their shark relatives (dogfish, for instance) is actually urea, not "urine". That's what you're smelling in the fresh examples. If you know it's fresh but it still smells a bit like urea, try a soak in some salt water for an hour or two, maybe three tablespons to the gallon. Seems to cut way back on the urea in dogfish, actually a type of shark, that has a lot of urea in the skin as well.

By the way, I've heard that dogfish and skate are often used in fish and chips in England. Anybody know if this is true?

Edited January 18, 2007 by IgnatzH (log)

budrichard · January 18, 2007

Actually, the compound in the skin of skates and and some of their shark relatives (dogfish, for instance) is actually urea, not "urine". That's what you're smelling in the fresh examples. If you know it's fresh but it still smells a bit like urea, try a soak in some salt water for an hour or two, maybe three tablespons to the gallon. Seems to cut way back on the urea in dogfish, actually a type of shark, that has a lot of urea in the skin as well.
By the way, I've heard that dogfish and skate are often used in fish and chips in England. Anybody know if this is true?
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This is patently not true and has been commented on before. This is used to sell rotting fish. It's an urban legend that people keep repeating.

I have eaten LOTS of skate for LOTS of years. Most has been ammonia free. That which smells of ammonia is not any different than any seafood that smells of ammonia, the smell is the result of decomposition.-Dick

Domestic Goddess · January 19, 2007

My aunt has a great recipe of steamed skate with chopped tomatoes, onion and ginger and then topped with mayonaise. It sounds insane but it tastes good! Especially with beer.

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