Food and Wine Pairings

[JohnL]

Whew, I was afraid that recipe had gotten lost forever.  It was Saveur, and it's not on their site, and it was one of the most delicious oxtail preparations I've ever had.  The ingredients look like this:

6 lbs oxtail

6 cups red wine

2 1/4 cups tawny port

3/4 cup cognac

2 ribs celery

2 carrots

1 onion

2 cloves garlic

2 tsp juniper berries

2 bay leaves

3 sprigs thyme

salt and pepper

6 T peanut oil

1/3 cup flour

2 T olive oil

4 ripe tomatoes

1 tsp sugar

1 tsp brewed coffee

How's that sound for the Leonetti? I also came across this recipe that I saved but have never tried herb roasted rack of lamb which might also make a good match, with the accompanying Roquefort bread pudding and a pile of roasted root veggies.  Roquefort and oaky Cab?

Good idea on freezing the chanterelles, Eden.  It's supposed to rain tonight, so maybe we'll be getting a better crop in a few days.

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The oxtail dish has some pretty bold flavors.

Though my favorite accompaniement to most lamb dishes is a Bordeaux with a bit of age

(ok-I am being "classic" here) I do think the lamb dish you note here would work with the Leonetti (and vice versa).

Also-Roquefort with red wine (I have a hard time imagining this) may be interesting given it is tempered in a bread pudding.

I really like the roast root vegetables --I can taste them with the Leonetti--definitely a winner.

Again--what you have with the Leonetti and the Kistler are two very distinct and heavy on the character and personality. The Kistler should have a distinctive yeasty note (similar to a fine champagne).

They both can have earthy and spicy notes--they definitely have oak flavors--and if from good vintages, they should have loads of fruit but with plenty of structure.

If I were your client (and boy don't I wish I were!) I would definitely have you taste all the wines before you created a menu. I would probably have you over for some simple snacks and we would taste the wines and discuss them so you would get a good idea of what I thought of them and you would be able to have a real nice context for the meal you will plan and execute.

Seems to me that would be more conducive to getting the most/fullest benefit of your talents!

More of my money's worth if you will.

[Abra]

Boy, JohnL, I wish you were my client too! Tasting in advance is absolutely what to do, but in this case, I won't get to.

For the Kistler, I'll offer a couple of starter ideas I've been thinking about.

1) a tarte of salt cod puree - it's kind of a brandade de morue, but in a tarte incarnation, with a little tomato, on a crust.

2) A cream of cashew and Armagnac soup with something else, something crunchy

Would you want either of those with the Chard? Something completely different?

[Brad Ballinger]

For the Kistler, I'll offer a couple of starter ideas I've been thinking about.

1) a tarte of salt cod puree - it's kind of a brandade de morue, but in a tarte incarnation, with a little tomato, on a crust. 

2) A cream of cashew and Armagnac soup with something else, something crunchy

Would you want either of those with the Chard?  Something completely different?

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I'd want #1. I'm not a fan of wine with soup. I know, I know. I'm a wine prude.

[JohnL]

IMOP--I think both those would work well.

It is a shame you don't know which Kistler Chardonnay you are working with.

Kistler makes many different chards each vintage from various single vinyards as well as some blends.

They can each be quite different in flavor notes.

They all share the fact that they are very big-bold and distinctive with lots of personality.

Usually lots of fruit (tropical notes) and often a yeasty (leesy) note with toasted nuts.

(They are not quite Meursault's though in this regard) sometimes a touch of smokiness.

There will be oak (though these are not in the Leonetti league) Steve Kistler usually uses 50% new French Oak or less.

as for the Pinot--I nver heard of it. would love to know what it is though.

[JohnL]

For the Kistler, I'll offer a couple of starter ideas I've been thinking about.

1) a tarte of salt cod puree - it's kind of a brandade de morue, but in a tarte incarnation, with a little tomato, on a crust. 

2) A cream of cashew and Armagnac soup with something else, something crunchy

Would you want either of those with the Chard?  Something completely different?

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I'd want #1. I'm not a fan of wine with soup. I know, I know. I'm a wine prude.

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Brad,

I don't understand your soup "thing."

Though I would generally not order a bottle of wine to go with a soup course--I do enjoy a glass of wine with most soups.

I like:

a crisp sauvignon blanc or a white Rioja or an albarino with gazpacho.

a glass of fino sherry with black bean soup (and a splash in the soup)

a nice chardonnay or white Burgunday with a Lobster Bisque

i also enjoy a good simple red with hearty soups like an Italian vegetable soup/minestrone.

often i will finish the wine I had as an aperitiff or first course with the soup though.

you really prefer water?

I must say I am suprised!

[CtznCane]

I like the idea of oxtails with the cab but then again I love oxtails as well as accompanying them with a big bold wine. I'd also suggest braised lamb shanks.

Brad's suggestion of the scallops sounds very appealing with the chardonnay. Salmon with a pinot noir is always a winner. I'm also very fond of grilled pork tendrloin with a nice pinot as well.

Another thought I had, offbeat though it might be, was perhaps to have the cab with desert served with a rich chocolate decadance cake.

[Abra]

I must be the only person in the world who thinks that Cab and chocolate are a horrid combination! Now there's a pairing I just don't get.

[legourmet]

I must be the only person in the world who thinks that Cab and chocolate are a horrid combination!  Now there's a pairing I just don't get.

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Abra you are right Cab and chocolate are a horrid combination. Best pairing is chocolate and Banyuls Grand Cru , a sweet dark red.

Edited September 30, 2005 by legourmet (log)

[Brad Ballinger]

I must be the only person in the world who thinks that Cab and chocolate are a horrid combination!  Now there's a pairing I just don't get.

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Nope. You're not. In fact, I don't really prefer any wine with chocolate. I prefer coffee. But if I am forced to have wine with chocolate, I'll opt for Banyuls, Maury, or Late Bottled Vintage Port. Some also like Muscat with chocolate, but for me that would depend on how dark/strong the chocolate is.

[Abra]

Banyuls is so hard to come by here, so I've never had it with chocolate, but I've always heard that it's a delicious combination.

Maybe I'll try harder to get some and use it for this dinner, although I've been thinking of something apple, to lighten things up a bit. Apple with Moscato, in general, right? Or something less obvious?

[Brad Ballinger]

Maybe I'll try harder to get some and use it for this dinner, although I've been thinking of something apple, to lighten things up a bit.  Apple with Moscato, in general, right?  Or something less obvious?

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It depends (of course). Apple what? How tart? How sweet? A general rule of thumb with pairing a wine with a dessert is that the wine should be sweeter than the dessert. Otherwise, the sweetness in the dessert can make the wine seem more astringent/less sweet than it might otherwise appear on its own.

Moscato/Muscat comes in fizzy (e.g. Moscato d'Asti) and still styles. I don't know what style you were thinking. But there are many late harvest options you can consider, including riesling, chardonnay, semillon, sauvignon blanc, chenin blanc, pinot gris, viognier. In general, you get more volume for your money with Moscato d'Asti. And it is usually lower in alcohol. One of my favorite producers is Elio Perrone, who makes a Sourgal (bottled shortly after harvest, lighter in style) and a Clarte (bottled later, a bit more depth).

[legourmet]

Banyuls is so hard to come by here, so I've never had it with chocolate, but I've always heard that it's a delicious combination.

Maybe I'll try harder to get some and use it for this dinner, although I've been thinking of something apple, to lighten things up a bit.  Apple with Moscato, in general, right?  Or something less obvious?

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Well yes, it depends on what you are serving. For instance a ripe red Burgundy fits well to an appelpancake with cinnamon and sugar.

The general rule says that sweet desserts ask for wine owning the same, or even more sweetness. I myself like pairings of Riesling Beerenausleese and "Tarte Tatin" or applestrudel or peach tarte.

Edited October 1, 2005 by legourmet (log)

[KatieLoeb]

Abra, I think your Basque Oxtail dish would work brilliantly with some Mencía from Bierzo as well.

I'm currently working on a Spanish wine list for a client and have learned that I truly love Spanish wine. It's been a brilliant tutorial and I now have many new favorites. Mencía is my latest kick. Kind of like cab franc with less overwhelming vegetal and more spice.

[laurenkusa]

So, I have gotten an idea about which wines I enjoy. Now how do I pair them to the foods I enjoy.

My taste buds are unique so someone's recommendation to me may not work, or will it?

I ask you all to help me learn more about enjoying wine with food.

Thanks

[Daniel Rogov]

Lauren, Hi......

I'm going to refer you to several little articles I have written about food-wine matching but before that let me remind you of the advice of at least several truly great chefs: "Find the dishes you most enjoy and the wines you most enjoy and try those together. The chance is you're going to love the matches you make"

Best way to sum it up perhaps is to report on how one day my most faithful companion and I made our way to lunch to Moul Yam in Tel Aviv, there to feast on oysters and then crabmeat stuffed lobsters. With the oysters we had a fine Muscadet de Sevre et Maine and with the lobsters, a Burgundy red.

Seated at a nearby table were two couples and they kept glancing at us. To tell the truth, for a few moments their glances were even uncomfortable. Finally, one of the women stood up, came to our table, excused herself very politely and asked: "Excuse me, but aren't you Daniel Rogov?" I responded in the affirmative. She asked "Mr. Rogov, with all you know about wine and food how can you drink red wine with seafood?"

I did not answer her but had the waitress bring another chair and place setting to our table. The wine waiter poured some wine for her and I gave her part of my portion. All I had to do was to watch her eyes as they lit up with pleasure .....

As to the articles - see http://www.stratsplace.com/rogov/wine_food.html

Edited October 6, 2005 by Daniel Rogov (log)

[Brad Ballinger]

I'm also going to send you to other articles. I suggest you Google "Tim Hanni" to find articles by him and about him and his philosophy, which I find sound.

The bottom line is that foods that are in balance and wines that are in balance will go well together. Here's another bit of his philosophy:

The principles of wine and food pairing, says guru Tim Hanni, boil down to two simple rules: one, food that is sweet or has discernible bitterness tends to make wine taste drier and exaggerate any tartness or astringency; and two, food that is salty or sour tends to make wine taste milder.

You can often alter how the wine tastes by altering the food you ingest before sipping the wine. For example, if the wine seems too strong, add something acidic (citrus, vinegar, mustard) and then see how much "softer" the wine has become. If the wine seems to soft, add something sweet and see how much "stronger" it now seems. Balancing out the food tends to also balance out the wine.

[jsolomon]

Lauren, the advice that I have is not quite so learned as Daniel Rogov's or Brad Ballinger's, but it is equally as important. Don't be afraid to make mistakes. When you are trying to pairings, be ready to evaluate them on their own qualities.

In my cooking and drinking experiences, I have made some really tremendous missteps. I have a group of dinner friends who you can simply say "brussels sprouts" and they will dissolve into laughter because of a grandly misguided attempt at hote kweezeen. It missed haute cuisine by a long shot, but it was a fun dinner.

Wine shouldn't be considered unapproachable. It wouldn't be in so many different cultures if it were. Wine should be looked at like an old friend always welcomed to the table, not the boss who should be approached with great deference and probity.

Have fun with your learning. You'll be glad that you did. Mistakes are just new experiences in another light.

[Brad Ballinger]

Wine shouldn't be considered unapproachable.  It wouldn't be in so many different cultures if it were.  Wine should be looked at like an old friend always welcomed to the table, not the boss who should be approached with great deference and probity.

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Agreed. And the answer to the question, "Which country makes a bigger deal and is more hung up about food and wine pairing than any other country in the world?" would be the United States in a landslide.

[Daniel Rogov]

Wine shouldn't be considered unapproachable. 

Agreed in full and with great enthusiasm at that! Above all, wine should be a pleasure in life, and that means indeed making mistakes and even enjoying those mistakes and sometimes even laughing heartily at ourselves for them. I am reminded of the story of a critic of international renown who once mistook a Burgundy wine for a Bordeaux. When asked by a young man how he could make such a "horrible error", the wise man smiled and responded: "Don't worry son. It doesn't happen to me often. Never more than once a day"

[Rebel Rose]

Hi, Lauren, I'm glad that you are joining us here. With the approaching holidays, the subject of pairing wine and food is very pertinent to all of us, and in fact your particular question--how to choose one wine for a group of people, or a group of foods, is a situation that occurs frequently when families and friends gather.

When dining with friends, I am often volunteered to choose a wine for the group, while the others are still pondering the menu. Rather than bludgeon everyone over the head for entree choices, I try to choose one interesting white, and one mellow but layered red.

At the moment I'm rather fond of gruner veltliner as a white selection--it's a crisp white wine with an intriguing twist of black pepper. It goes well with seafood, salads, spicy sauces and even some lighter meats. My favorite red varietals for versatile food pairings are pinot noir and sangiovese.

[liamdc]

If you're interested in experimenting with wine pairing to home-cooked food, Food & Wine's web site--www.foodandwine.com--offers some good recipes with wine pairing suggestions.

[PCL]

The classic "There is no right or wrong" answer seems to be avoided, but it really is necessary to work with what you like and know.

Lauren, it might be a good idea for you to tell us what you like and then we can brainstorm, suggest and carry on till the cows come home.

To echo Mary's point, I'm kind of into certain things at the moment, and if what I'm eating doesn't fit the wine, I'd rather stick to a glass of sparkling water than begrudgingly go for a wine that 'matches' just to be 'correct'. Sometimes, personal choices can make others cringe, but with time, I'm sure many of us learn to accept and even celebrate diversity.

Some 'scary' combos I've tasted and enjoyed recently:

- fish 'n chips with pinot noir

- pork belly lentils with a cabernet s/shiraz/cab franc blend

- tempura prawns with cab merlot

- pinot grigio with pinot noir...(don't ask, didn't really enjoy this one)

[Rebel Rose]

In today's NY Times:

Swiss Chard and Smoky Bacon Bring Earthy Wines Into Focus

these timbales of Swiss chard, bolstered with smoky bacon, could also bring the wine into focus alongside grilled fish, or with poultry. The timbales can be served by themselves as a first course or presented in a pool of creamy tomato sauce for a luncheon.

I do like dishes with bacon and smoky flavors served with syrahs and other deep reds, but I like those flavors to be subtle, not overwhelming--to sort of echo the balance of flavors in the wine itself. These chard and bacon timbales sound like a good way to do that. Hmm . . . Thanksgiving?

[jsolomon]

Y'know, one of my favorite comfort food pairings is ham and bean soup or ham and split pea soup with cabernet sauvignon.

One other addition to all of the advice we've given you is ask the waitron/wine store slave if they've tried the wine you're looking at. If they say they have, ask them about it. Ask them what they would eat with it. If you don't get a specific answer like "this would go well with a garlicy pork dish" you're probably not getting a very considered bit of advice, and it's time to move on to another shill or another bottle--one that is better described by the person you're talking to.

Wine salespeople are like butchers and fishmongers. Develop a good relationship with a reputable one and you'll be doing yourself quite a service. With the breadth even small wine shops offer, they are likely to not be terribly snooty about the "obvious superiority" of one wine over another. They're just people in to move their product and enjoy their lives. Hopefully both of these intersect in a happy place.

[JohnL]

Another thought--

If the food in question has an ethnic background then look to the wines produced and/or drunk in the place from which the recipe/food originates.

for eg

I have learned a lot by looking at cookbooks from various places around the world and then looking at what wines are produced/drunk in those same parts of the world.

It is hard to argue with local who have a history of hundreds of years of experience in cooking and winemaking.