Sichuan Ma La dishes (麻辣XX)

[hzrt8w]

In the same "Spice!" restaurant in San Francisco, I ordered a cold dish named "Ma La Beef Tendon". (麻辣牛筋)

This dish I like very much. Soft beef tendons bath in hot chili oil full of heat - the "La" (辣) sensation. And the Sichuan peppercorns would numb your tongue - the "Ma" (麻) sensation.

This dish presents the right balance of heat and numbness. I enjoyed it immensely, with sweats dripping and all... After a while, my tongue really went numb and was not reactive. It felt as if I went to see the dentist to pull out my teeth.

Have you experienced this numbness sensation from Sichuan food? Do you like it?

[Ben Hong]

I have a cast iron mouth and I can stand a lot of "heat". Tried a lot of ma-la dishes, and when people exclaim about the same "ma" effect that you described, I just keep on eating . There is a definite numbing effect, but I am not affected by it that much...if at all. I love the "la" or laht sensation (must be the masochist in me coming out.

[wesza]

I used to be able to deal with very hot spicy foods much better then I am now only able to enjoy them in moderation.

I remember eating in Hong Kong Sichuan Restaurants located in a part of Kowloon where the immigrants from Sichuan has established a hillside squatter community where several Restaurants had opened.

My wife and friend's would keep eating with tearing glazed eyes, running noses and swelling lips in a almost euphoric state with a silly grin on their faces.

I would never be able to go that far but it seemed to be something that drew them back often. I ate lots of Rice and small chow of glazed peanuts served everywhere as a condiment, being careful to separate anything that looked like chili's or seeds during the meal. Once my nose began to run, I started eating Rice waiting to recover, everyone else was oblivious.

It seems to me that the first American Chinese Restaurants serving spicy foods were "Hunan" that were eventually followed by "Sichuan" and for a while almost every place served "Hot Dishes" with little expertise.

Irwin

Edited March 4, 2006 by wesza (log)

[mizducky]

I used to be able to deal with very hot spicy foods much better then I am now only able to enjoy them in moderation  ...

It seems to me that the first American Chinese Restaurants serving spicy foods were "Hunan" that were eventually followed by "Sichuan" and for a while almost every place served "Hot Dishes" with little expertise.

←

Heh. Both of these phenomena are part of my Szechuan restaurant experience. I used to be a real fire-eater in my youth, but a few years ago I was bummed to discover that my bod was beginning to plead for mercy. So now I indulge with discretion, but I still indulge.

And yeah, I was eating in "Szechuan" restaurants here in the States for years before I finally got steered to a *really* good one (Ba Ren, here in San Diego, which I've ranted about elsewhere), and got to experience what "ma la" was really about.

One of my favorite things about Ba Ren is that they serve a variety of cold appetizers like the one you cite here, Ah Leung. I don't recall seeing one that was all tendon, but IIRC their version of "Husband and Wife Beef" includes tendon, and they have other dishes drenched in chile oil like the one you depict (like a dish of thin-sliced pig's ear). I find them addictively good--if I didn't consciously restrain myself, I could probably eat enough to cause some severe tummy distress. But oh, it hurts so good.

[Pan]

Ah Leung, I love the beef tendon dish at my local Grand Sichuan, which is similar to the dish you had. I definitely do not find Sichuan pepper's numbing capacity to be comparable to Novocaine. Yes, there's some numbing. I think the sensation is fine, but I wouldn't eat something just for that sensation. I eat it for the taste.

[muichoi]

It depends very much on the quality of the peppercorn. I used to think that the numbing effect was very mild, but buying the sichuan pepper preserved in oil now available was a revelation-only matched by a can of root beer from singapore which must surely have been a mispackaged dental product!

[Pan]

muichoi, point well taken, but there's a lot of room between "mild numbing effect" and "Novocaine."

I haven't been to Sichuan province, but I tend not to think that Grand Sichuan's Sichuan pepper is weak.

[hzrt8w]

[...] I think the sensation is fine, but I wouldn't eat something just for that sensation. I eat it for the taste.

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Taste is one form of sensation.

I wonder how they can achieve that numbing effect. At home I have chewed on Sichuan peppercorns before, but didn't experience that numbing effect. Perhaps the peppercorns need to be fresh? Perhaps they need to be ground first? Perhaps they need to be mixed with oil? Perhaps they must be used together with the dried hot chilies?

I would love to learn how to switch on the magic of "ma" in "ma la" dishes.

Edited March 5, 2006 by hzrt8w (log)

[Pan]

They definitely don't have to be powdered for the effect.

[wesza]

Even though I should have been sworn to secrecy, I wasn't so I will inform fellow eGulleter's about the insidious nuances about the magic of a habit forming "Hot Sauce" or "Dish".

This is part of my celebration attaining "1000" posts today.

I have always been fascinated about the intricacies of spicy foods especially those considered hot. While living in Hong Kong owning and operating Restaurants while importing and exporting various item's I was in a position to hire as a consultant/adviser the then pre-eminent Sichuan Chef who had emigrated to Hong Kong and was then semi-retired.

One of my cooks had been a apprentice for several years working under his guidance. He was well known for his sauces, seasonings and subtle ways of cooking a reputation he had brought from Sichuan. After he arrived in Hong Kong a astute local businessman invested in a upscale "Sichuan Restaurant" offering him shares that was the first one in Hong Kong that became well known. The building where it was located was being demolished for new construction so he decided to retire when I was able to engage his services.

After several months I was beginning to understand the subtle way he used the heat in his dishes. It all transpired because everything was layered to give the effects enough time on your palette to achieve initially a comfortable warmth that eventually became hotter over time until your eyes teared, nose ran and lips swelled. It was interesting that while this was occurring it rarely slowed anyone down from eating more and enjoying them selves.

This was effected by using items in the sauces that masked the spiciness, such as oils,ginger, garlic, even mustard powder together with different chili's some fermented, others ground fine but all slowly cooked together to marry in a Pork/Chicken Demi-Glace with some Chinese Wines. Ciliantro, Curley Parsley and Leaf Parsley were chopped fine and cooked together in the oils to moderate the garlic and chili effect.

Variations of this mixture were arranged at the cooks station where he was able to contrive the right balance for each order. IE: 1 star all the way to 10 stars for degrees of heat. The hotter the dish, the more subtle was the heats effects.

Using what I had learned and through experimentation I decided to merchandise when I opened the "Lisboa Restaurant" in Honolulu serving Portuguese, Spanish, South American and African Style meals claiming the some of the Hottest dishes anywhere.

Our 1 star was hot and enjoyable to almost everyone. Our 3 star was slightly hotter the Tabasco. Our 5 star was at least twice as hot as Tabasco. Our 7 star was never served to anyone who hadn't actually enjoyed our 5 star. The 10 star was labeled by my staff as "Sudden Death" with a "Skull & Crossbones" being drawn on the containers and was used to achieve a balance between the others. We would skim some oil off the top for special customers on request.

During this period it wasn't unusual to have customers flying in on weekends from the west coast reserving tables for dinner every night at Lisboa who felt the trip was worth while just to enjoy the spicy foods.

I still make variations of theses sauces and have kept several Barbecue Sauces under refrigeration for several years without any problems. It still delicious and insidious.

Irwin

[hzrt8w]

Congratulations! Happy 1000th post, Irwin!

I have seen many restuarants use a 3-star system to rate hotness of their dishes. In one Thai restaurant I have seen it uses a 5-star system. I have not seen one that uses as many as 10.

[Dejah]

Congratulations!  Happy 1000th post, Irwin!

I have seen many restuarants use a 3-star system to rate hotness of their dishes.  In one Thai restaurant I have seen it uses a 5-star system.  I have not seen one that uses as many as 10. 

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I don't think there's anything as lethel as Dave's Insanity Sauce made from habanero peppers. I have used 1/2 of one of these peppers along with the little red chilis for spiking "10"s, but I wonder why would anyone want that? Not only is it painful, you can't even taste the food.

It's even more painful when this food is served on a sizzling hot plate!

I do like to add very thinly sliced half a habanero pepper when I steam beef and mui choi.

Add my congrats to Ah Leung's on the 1000th, Irwin.

[Carlovski]

[...] I think the sensation is fine, but I wouldn't eat something just for that sensation. I eat it for the taste.

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Taste is one form of sensation.

I wonder how they can achieve that numbing effect. At home I have chewed on Sichuan peppercorns before, but didn't experience that numbing effect. Perhaps the peppercorns need to be fresh? Perhaps they need to be ground first? Perhaps they need to be mixed with oil? Perhaps they must be used together with the dried hot chilies?

I would love to learn how to switch on the magic of "ma" in "ma la" dishes.

←

I've tried buying them from Chinese Supermarkets in the UK and they are inevitably very poor. Strangely the ones available in the supermarket (Bart's Spices brand) are pretty potent. Even then it seems to be variable, I got one jar once and managed to completely ruin a dish with far too much - it was a very strong batch and completely numbed my tongue and produce a rather unpleasent metallic taste.

[CFT]

I've tried buying them from Chinese Supermarkets in the UK and they are inevitably very poor. Strangely the ones available in the supermarket (Bart's Spices brand) are pretty potent. Even then it seems to be variable, I got one jar once and managed to completely ruin a dish with far too much - it was a very strong batch and completely numbed my tongue and produce a rather unpleasent metallic taste.

Hi Carlovski,

Another UK gulleteer here. Can you tell me which supermarkets you have been able to obtain sichuan peppercorns from? I think I have seen them once but can't remember where; I think it was also the Bart's Spices brand.

I tried to make mapo tofu with a supermarket brand of sichuan sauce. It was OK, but not really good enough. Next time I will try from scratch.

[Adam Balic]

I was given some Sichuan peppercorns by a student from guizhou, they are very potent and do not caontain any of the black seeds. If any UK based person would like a sample then PM me.

[jo-mel]

I have several packets of Sichuan peppercorns, from various sources, and I think I will test them all over a period of two days to see which have potency and which don't --- and weed them out. I just tested the jar that I keep in the kitchen. Nada numbness -- zilch, zip. They will be the first to go!!

[trillium]

Fresh Sichuan peppercorns (which are not really true peppercorns) will make your mouth/tongue very, very numb after you chewed on just one. If they don't do that, they're not fresh! You may also get a tingle and a little bit of a sour taste along with the "hot" and the numb. The best way to switch on the "ma" is to make sure you're starting with very fresh peppercorns. Sometimes it's easier to find fresh peppercorns in an herbal shop instead of a grocery shop.

regards,

trillium

[jo-mel]

Just about the time that the ban was ending, I was in a food store in NYC's Chinatown. They had some Sichuan peppercorns in an unmarked package ---just a price on the clear plastic bag. As soon as I got in the car to come home, I opened the bag and tried one. WOW! Do I need to say more? None of my other purchases of S.Pepper, before or after, came near these babies!

[muichoi]

I've tried buying them from Chinese Supermarkets in the UK and they are inevitably very poor. Strangely the ones available in the supermarket (Bart's Spices brand) are pretty potent. Even then it seems to be variable, I got one jar once and managed to completely ruin a dish with far too much - it was a very strong batch and completely numbed my tongue and produce a rather unpleasent metallic taste.

Hi Carlovski,

Another UK gulleteer here. Can you tell me which supermarkets you have been able to obtain sichuan peppercorns from? I think I have seen them once but can't remember where; I think it was also the Bart's Spices brand.

I tried to make mapo tofu with a supermarket brand of sichuan sauce. It was OK, but not really good enough. Next time I will try from scratch.

←

See Woo supermarkets have a variety packed in oil which is astounding.

[jo-mel]

Just about the time that  the ban was ending, I was in a food store in NYC's Chinatown. They had some Sichuan peppercorns in an unmarked package ---just a price on the clear plastic bag. As soon as I got in the car to come home, I opened the bag and tried one. WOW!  Do I need to say more?  None of my other purchases of S.Pepper, before or after, came near these babies!

←

I taste tested two more packets that I keep in the freezer. One was the one I bought in NYC with just the price on it. Both taste tests were numbing, tingling positives! And the numbness and tingling were almost immediate and lasted quite a while. Those packets are keepers. I still have more tests to do tomorrow.

[...tm...]

I had the same beef tendon dish at SpicesII recently and enjoyed it very much. It had a very good balance between the ma and la, not to mention plenty of flavoring from the aromatics.

I've never found the numbing effect of sichuan peppercorns to be completely overwhelming; in my mouth it is more of a tingling than a complete numbness. As for the flavor of the sichuan peppercorn, I've always assumed that they are used primarily to add the numbing sensation, as the taste is metalic, and not really in a good way. Although they do smell pretty good when roasting I rarely detect much of this "flavor" or aroma transferred to the hot oil which is usually the vehicle used to carry the sichuan peppercorn sensation.

[wesza]

Congratulations!  Happy 1000th post, Irwin!

I have seen many restuarants use a 3-star system to rate hotness of their dishes.  In one Thai restaurant I have seen it uses a 5-star system.  I have not seen one that uses as many as 10.  

←

I don't think there's anything as lethel as Dave's Insanity Sauce made from habanero peppers. I have used 1/2 of one of these peppers along with the little red chilis for spiking "10"s, but I wonder why would anyone want that? Not only is it painful, you can't even taste the food.

It's even more painful when this food is served on a sizzling hot plate!

I do like to add very thinly sliced half a habanero pepper when I steam beef and mui choi.

Add my congrats to Ah Leung's on the 1000th, Irwin.

←

My sauce that my employees labeled "Sudden Death" with the Skull & Crossbones was MUCH hotter then "Dave's Insanity Sauce" plus actually has taste, flavor and character before it delivers it BURN.

Dave's Insanity (Raw Heat) with several blind testings received levels of only 7 and 8 not our unanimous #10.

We used several varieties of "Scotch Bonnets", Philippine Chili's, Thai Chili, Cambodian Chili, 5 types Chinese Chili, Several African, Mexican, Central and South American Chili both Dry, Fresh and Fermented many actually were grown in Hawaii and samples received from The University of Hawaii.

We worked several years attempting to obtain the best fragrance, balance and character that would assimilate into the Sichuan subtleness desired.

Again our number system was based on:

#1 Hot, very tasty, subtle without any kick.

#3 Comparable to Tabasco, Hot but also sneaky subtle and very tasty

#5 Twice as Hot as Tabasco, still sneaky followed by runny nose, tearing eyes and if you were persistent swollen lips.

Anything above was only EVER served to those customers who were really addicted to extremely hot foods who had proved themselves previously by actually enjoying 5 stars.

We also prepared a "Piri Piri" Sauce (Hot-Hot in Portuguese that was adapted into most African dialects) that we supplied to many Diplomats.

Some Americans from New Mexico really loved eating with the 5 star version but the majority were from India, Asia and South America.

I have watched, amused the proliferation of serving sauces that were simply "Hot", Hotter" or whatever but most are only just nasty. I still have friends sending me samples from all over the world or even order via the internet or mail order just to compare and assuage the variations but find almost none that are fun, tasty or anything else except "Hot".

It's more enjoyment to be subtle, even sneaky allowing you to saviour and enjoy whatever food you are eating knowing that the heat is still complimenting your meal abut not overwhelming for the majority. At least we allow enough time for the diner to say, this is to hot for me at a certain point in place of clobbering them.

We also carefully explained about all the nuances, warning guests about aspects of the hot spices in the sauce, making sure they were prepared for the tastes.

Whenever anyone was overwhelmed as a guest of someone who was familiar, having eaten that level of hotness previously we willingly exchanged their dish for a modified version at no additional cost.

One thing we did learn is that the Jamaican variety of "Scotch Bonnets" is something to treat with respect by wearing gloves, not inhaling during cooking and never touch the seeds.

Irwin (always wear protective glasses working with chili)

[Dejah]

Habanero and Scotch Bonnets the same pepper, just grown in different countries?

I don't wear gloves - just make sure I don't handle the cut part of the peppers.

Something strange about the numbering of posts: I was reading back in the congee with salt pork thread, and wesza has been sitting at 1002 since Oct. 17, 2005!

I'm stuck at 1344...

[wesza]

Habanero and Scotch Bonnets the same pepper, just grown in different countries?

I don't wear gloves - just make sure I don't handle the cut part of the peppers.

Something strange about the numbering of posts: I was reading back in the congee with salt pork thread, and wesza has been sitting at 1002 since Oct. 17, 2005!

I'm stuck at 1344...

←

Dejah:

On eGullet your number of posts automatically increases progressively. That why your number of posts now is 1346, but if any happen subsequently it will change.

The Habanero and Scotch Bonnet Peppers are both from the same family but have different appearences.

Habanero Chili's originated in Mexico and a more volatile variation was grown in Havana Cuba after being imported there, hence the name Habanero from "Havana". They have a pointed tip.

Scotch Bonnet Chili's originated in the West Indies with it's most volatile variation grown in Jamaica. They have a round bottom, slightly indented.

Both types are considered very hot with variations depending where they are grown. Some of the hottest Habaneros are from New Mexico.

There is one type relatively not well known that's considerably hotter. I only have tried it from samples received from the University of Hawaii and never had enough to play with in cooking.

It's quite fragile, looks like a baby's fingers and is cultivated only at high altitudes in South America. We designated it as a number 12+ in our comparisons its name is the, "Rocoto Chili".

Irwin

[jwanger]

Hello-

For one I have had several ma la dishes in Chengdu, Sichuan, and I have to say I did not enjoy the experience (or the ma la dishes I had in the rest of the country). Then again I'm not such a spicy person. My boyfriend is a big fan, however, but he was also born in Hubei-- a province known to have very spicy food.

Anyway, last time I was in China one dish I ordered (Ganbian siji dou- or dried four season stringbeans) has a little bit of ma on it, not too potent and pretty good actually. However, we also heard rumor that the stuff is somewhat addicting.... I was wondering if anyone has heard about the ma being an addictive substance?

Thanks,

Jenny