Alice Waters attacks obesity

[Carrot Top]

You--and John Whiting, who made the same point in the post above yours--are right.  I guess my injection of Philly addytood into the post obscured the message I wanted to convey, which is that it shouldn't take a celebrity to get people to notice this subject.

←

I'm glad you posted the information on the Philly program, Sandy, though - very glad. The Alice Waters program is great to read of, as all these things are. But there is something about the program you posted that seems more "do-able", more real, more possible - to me - when I think of the school systems I've seen.

I "bookmarked" the link immediately upon reading of it.

It is working, that program, and it is working in an "everyday" sort of world. And the people that made that program work are "everyday" heroes. They have made a big difference in some children's lives.

Again, nothing against Alice Waters. She is an astonishing force of a person and she uses that energy in good ways that go way beyond herself.

I don't blame you for your "addytood". This is something indeed to be rightfully proud of. Honey, I'd be struttin' with righteous pride, too.

Edited March 1, 2006 by Carrot Top (log)

[amylou]

A few years ago, NPR interviewed a single mother living in New York City. Her daughter was 8 years old and was quite overweight. The mother said that at the store, she could by grapes for $3/lb which were invariably moldy and would rot within a day. Or, she could buy cookies for less than $1, which would last forever. She said it bothered her, but she always chose the cookies -- she couldn't afford the produce, and even if she could, the produce sold at inner city markets tends to be rotten. The announcer on NPR said that what ends up in inner city stores is produce that suburban grocery stores could not sell.

When money is tight, families are going to be forced to buy inexpensive food and inevitably highly processed that family members will eat and not complain about.

The food pyramid that everyone grew learning at school was sponsored by the meat and dairy industry. These are just a few of many industries that unfortunately might try with all their might to block healthy incentives at schools.....

[Patrick S]

A few years ago, NPR interviewed a single mother living in New York City.  Her daughter was 8 years old and was quite overweight.  The mother said that at the store, she could by grapes for $3/lb which were invariably moldy and would rot within a day.  Or, she could buy cookies for less than $1, which would last forever.  She said it bothered her, but she always chose the cookies -- she couldn't afford the produce, and even if she could, the produce sold at inner city markets tends to be rotten.  The announcer on NPR said that what ends up in inner city stores is produce that suburban grocery stores could not sell.  When money is tight, families are going to be forced to buy inexpensive food and inevitably highly processed that family members will eat and not complain about.

←

I kinda sympathize, but not much. If this women thought her only choices were moldy grapes or . . . cookies, its no wonder her daughter is overweight, and it sounds like she needs some training on how to shop. Eating healthy doesn't have to be any more expensive than eating unhealthy. Even if the produce is garbage there are plenty of other choices.

[Carrot Top]

I would hope that kpurvis would post a link or some information on the journalistic work she did in inner-city grocery stores. Lots of good information there.

[Mimi Sheraton]

As much as we need education of children on health and obesity, we must couch the advice carefully to avoid driving many children - especially girls - to anorexia and bulimia.

[kpurvis]

A few years ago, NPR interviewed a single mother living in New York City.  Her daughter was 8 years old and was quite overweight.  The mother said that at the store, she could by grapes for $3/lb which were invariably moldy and would rot within a day.  Or, she could buy cookies for less than $1, which would last forever.  She said it bothered her, but she always chose the cookies -- she couldn't afford the produce, and even if she could, the produce sold at inner city markets tends to be rotten.  The announcer on NPR said that what ends up in inner city stores is produce that suburban grocery stores could not sell.  When money is tight, families are going to be forced to buy inexpensive food and inevitably highly processed that family members will eat and not complain about.

←

I kinda sympathize, but not much. If this women thought her only choices were moldy grapes or . . . cookies, its no wonder her daughter is overweight, and it sounds like she needs some training on how to shop. Eating healthy doesn't have to be any more expensive than eating unhealthy. Even if the produce is garbage there are plenty of other choices.

←

Wow, is that an oversimplified answer! How are you supposed to reach that good, healthful food if you don't have transportation, or you're working two jobs? Just because the woman was in New York City, that doesn't mean the stores in her neighborhood have affordable, healthful food. And have you tried shopping for a family by bus?

I have: I did a three-part series for my newspaper several years ago called "Nowhere to Shop." It was about the lack of supermarkets in low-income neighborhoods, and it included a column I wrote in which I parked my car in a housing project and went grocery shopping, using a feeding program list of a week's worth of healthful, affordable food for family of four. It took more than three hours and included a couple of bus changes. I got back to my car with cracked eggs, smashed bread, warm milk and gouges in my forearms from grocery bags.

I started working on the story years ago, when I was working in an adult illiteracy program in a housing project. I worked with two single mothers and one day, we started talking about where and how they get food. Neither had cars, and the only market in their neighborhood was a slum store, where the macaroni & cheese that would be 3/$1 in any other neighborhood was $1.79 for a box.

Later, I sat down with a map of my city and a list of store addresses from the phone book. What I saw when I matched them up was astounding. In predominantly white neighborhoods, there are supermarkets within blocks of one another, some less than 1/2 mile apart. In predominantly black neighborhoods, there are huge spaces between stores. There are many low-income neighborhoods here in Charlotte where the nearest market is five or six miles away.

If you earn less than $30,000 a year in this country, there aren't many statistics on you as a consumer -- the companies that pay for marketing studies don't really care. But here are some numbers I turned up, using Census reports and a study by the UNC Department of Epidemiology:

Predominantly white neighborhoods nationally average 1 supermarket for every 3,816 people.

Predominantly black neighborhoods nationwide average 1 supermarket for every 23,582 people.

Number of white Americans who live in a census tract with at least one

supermarket: 31 percent.

Number of black Americans who live in a census tract with at least one supermarket: 8 percent.

The bright spot in all of this: I turned up good evidence that if reputable supermarket chain makes an effort to market to a low-income neighborhood, it can be rewarded. When you put a good market in a poor neighborhood, people in that neighborhood become very loyal. You have to arrange the store differently and understand that poverty means people shop differently, at different times and in different amounts. But, they will utilize that store in high numbers and the store can turn a profit. I saw several examples of it happening, here in Charlotte and in several other cities.

[kpurvis]

I would hope that kpurvis would post a link or some information on the journalistic work she did in inner-city grocery stores. Lots of good information there.

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Sorry, Carrot, didn't see this post before I started jumping up and down on my soapbox! Thanks for remembering and offering such a kind mention.

Since the series ran in 2003, I'll have to ask the techies for help putting up a link. I'm still an old-fashioned, ink-on-paper kind of gal.

[Patrick S]

A few years ago, NPR interviewed a single mother living in New York City.  Her daughter was 8 years old and was quite overweight.  The mother said that at the store, she could by grapes for $3/lb which were invariably moldy and would rot within a day.  Or, she could buy cookies for less than $1, which would last forever.  She said it bothered her, but she always chose the cookies -- she couldn't afford the produce, and even if she could, the produce sold at inner city markets tends to be rotten.  The announcer on NPR said that what ends up in inner city stores is produce that suburban grocery stores could not sell.  When money is tight, families are going to be forced to buy inexpensive food and inevitably highly processed that family members will eat and not complain about.

←

I kinda sympathize, but not much. If this women thought her only choices were moldy grapes or . . . cookies, its no wonder her daughter is overweight, and it sounds like she needs some training on how to shop. Eating healthy doesn't have to be any more expensive than eating unhealthy. Even if the produce is garbage there are plenty of other choices.

←

Wow, is that an oversimplified answer! How are you supposed to reach that good, healthful food if you don't have transportation, or you're working two jobs? Just because the woman was in New York City, that doesn't mean the stores in her neighborhood have affordable, healthful food. And have you tried shopping for a family by bus?

←

I don't think my answer was oversimplified at all. I think the real oversimplication is pretending that you have to buy cookies for your obese daughter because the grapes are moldy. I lived for many years on minimum wage, and therefore know from my own experience that you can find reasonably affordable healthy food in just about any grocery.

[jsolomon]

As much as we need education of children on health and obesity, we must couch the advice carefully to avoid driving many children - especially girls - to anorexia and bulimia.

←

Instead of suing advertising agencies that promulgate the problems?

But, why do we always do things like this "for your health"? Why can't we try to instill a love of exercise and varied diet because they are fun?

The mind boggles... "eat your spinach because it's good for you" as opposed to "spinach and kale with bacon dressing taste amazing". The difference in drive there is tremendous.

[JohnL]

A few years ago, NPR interviewed a single mother living in New York City.  Her daughter was 8 years old and was quite overweight.  The mother said that at the store, she could by grapes for $3/lb which were invariably moldy and would rot within a day.  Or, she could buy cookies for less than $1, which would last forever.  She said it bothered her, but she always chose the cookies -- she couldn't afford the produce, and even if she could, the produce sold at inner city markets tends to be rotten.  The announcer on NPR said that what ends up in inner city stores is produce that suburban grocery stores could not sell.  When money is tight, families are going to be forced to buy inexpensive food and inevitably highly processed that family members will eat and not complain about.

←

I kinda sympathize, but not much. If this women thought her only choices were moldy grapes or . . . cookies, its no wonder her daughter is overweight, and it sounds like she needs some training on how to shop. Eating healthy doesn't have to be any more expensive than eating unhealthy. Even if the produce is garbage there are plenty of other choices.

←

Wow, is that an oversimplified answer! How are you supposed to reach that good, healthful food if you don't have transportation, or you're working two jobs? Just because the woman was in New York City, that doesn't mean the stores in her neighborhood have affordable, healthful food. And have you tried shopping for a family by bus?

←

I don't think my answer was oversimplified at all. I think the real oversimplication is pretending that you have to buy cookies for your obese daughter because the grapes are moldy. I lived for many years on minimum wage, and therefore know from my own experience that you can find reasonably affordable healthy food in just about any grocery.

←

I think the above exchange illustrates that this problem is fairly complex. It also illustrates how the media often oversimplifies things to make a point.

I have lived in New York City for many years and in many different neighborhoods wealthy and poor. I would have to agree with PatrickS here. I have a problem with the NPR story--it just doesn't ring true in terms of presenting an accurate larger picture.

The obesity problem is a recent problem-- the disparity in the proliferation of super markets in wealthier neighborhoods vs poor neighborhoods has been around far longer.

So, while it is a factor--I would argue it is a small factor.

We should stop making excuses for people rich and poor. I would ask simply, do we for a minute believe that , in most cases, any child living under the supervision of parents who were actively aware and concerned about that child's health would be less prone to be obese? Regardless of wealth or where they lived?

To me this is the essence of the problem.

In the past forty years we have removed a crucial element from children's lives--discipline. At school and in the home. we have ceded authority to others. It is not Ronald MacDonald's fault that he influences kids more than parents do today.

Children today spend too much sedentary time. In front of electronic babysitters--TV sets, gameboys, Ipods, cell phones etc and while they are sitting there-they are eating junk food.

The way to avoid obesity is basic--burn more calories than you consume!

It is hard to be eating a candy bar while playing basketball or soccer.

IMOP--the answer is lies in community based programs--yes like the Alice Waters effort. First comes awareness/education then action.

Community based programs are more effective because they can be tailored to the specific situation in each locale rich or poor. This is less about money than many people would like to think or have us believe.

We need to stop making excuses.

Playgrounds and athletic fields need to be open and available for kids--many potential activities are hindered or non existent because in our litigious society we are too busy passing blame or afraid of legal action.

Schools can teach nutrition and science and health and provide guidance --they can also make healthy foods available.

Peer pressure--is powerful--witness the decrease in smoking--this needs to be harnessed as well.

But parents need to start saying no to kids and taking more of an interest in their children's health (by the way they need to take an interest in their own health first).

This is not going to be easy--we may have lost a generation of parents but hopefully, we can win back the next generation of parents--today's kids.

[FabulousFoodBabe]

I'm not sure that anyone would try and block giving children a good education about food, no matter what their theories on the causes of obesity.

←

I wasn't saying that at all. My point was made when it was said that children need to be taught when to stop eating. That is a major part of a solid food and nutritional education. We've had our children in many public and private school systems in the country, and few of them dealt much with the effects of what happens when one overfeeds and underuses the body. Underfeeding it is discussed but overfeeding is pretty much ignored.

I was happy to see that the middle school here spent a portion of time in the health classes talking about attitudes toward people ... and included fat or obese people in the mix.

[JohnL]

I'm not sure that anyone would try and block giving children a good education about food, no matter what their theories on the causes of obesity.

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I wasn't saying that at all. My point was made when it was said that children need to be taught when to stop eating. That is a major part of a solid food and nutritional education. We've had our children in many public and private school systems in the country, and few of them dealt much with the effects of what happens when one overfeeds and underuses the body. Underfeeding it is discussed but overfeeding is pretty much ignored.

I was happy to see that the middle school here spent a portion of time in the health classes talking about attitudes toward people ... and included fat or obese people in the mix.

←

This is a small part of it.

Nutrition and science and health are good taught in schools when kids are older.

I can't help but think that we should look at very young kids who are "indulged" by parents--that is kids learn that they can have anything they want anytime they want it--not just food either.

Also how many parents use food to "shut kids up."--here have cookie--or a banana or whatever!

My parents were very strict about these things and we knew they were in total control over us--hey we were kids, they were parents.

Today-I watch many parents "give in" constantly and even engage small children in debate.

By the time we were nine or ten--we knew not to even ask for a cookie before dinner!

Something is horribly wrong with our generation as parents!

[Patrick S]

You're right on the money, John.

I was wondering how "prohibitively" expensive fruits and vegetables are compared to cookies, so I checked out USDA's Economic Reseach Service analyses on this subject. According to their 2004 report How Much Do Americans Pay for Fruits and Vegetables?, even low income households (defined as income 130% or less the "poverty line") can meet their recommended intake of fruit and vegetables by spending only 16% of their average food budget.

Americans do not consume recommended levels of fruits and vegetables. One argument is that they are expensive, especially when purchased fresh. This analysis uses ACNielsen Homescan data on 1999 household food purchases from all types of retail outlets to estimate an annual retail price per pound for 69 forms of fruits and 85 forms of vegetables. . . According to this formula, consumers can meet the recommendations of three servings of fruits and four servings of vegetables daily for 64 cents. Since this represents only 12 percent of daily food expenditures per person in 1999, consumers still have 88 percent of their food dollar left to purchase the other three food groups. (Even low-income households have 84 percent of their food dollar left.)

In other words, it would appear that by and large fruits and vegetables are not prohibitively expensive, even for those with low income, they simply are infrequently chosen. In fact, according to another ERS report, Low-Income Households’ Expenditures on Fruits and Vegetables, in any given week, 19% of low-income homes (as defined above) spend nothing on fruits and vegetables, which is almost twice the rate (10%) for homes with >130% poverty line income. The same report also points out "Interestingly, the largest positive influence on fruit and vegetable expenditures was a college-educated head of household, regardless of income level."

Edited March 1, 2006 by Patrick S (log)

[JohnL]

What is the likelihood that school programs that emphasize good, healthy food can compete with what might be served at home?

←

This is all well and good but it is a very small part of the equation.

Obesity in children is not just about food it is about growing up believing that one can indulge oneself whenever one wants.

It is about children who get very little exercise.

Remember--obesity, in most cases, is a result of taking in more calories than one burns off.

so it ain't just about food.

(not that nutrition isn't a good place to start)

mankind has been gathering around food for ages--remember the diner or the car hop? today it's MacDonald's or the food court at the Mall peer pressure looms large in our habits.

the more sane lesson is moderation and a balanced lifestyle

have a cheeseburger and a shake for lunch--just don't supersize it--then play some ball in the afternoon before dinner and eat a balanced meal for dinner.

don't sit in front of a game boy for more than an hour a day --kids need to learn there are consequences to their actions and parents need to teach this! schools can really only reinforce the lessons.

take the damn game boy and maintain control of it--monitor how long your kid is using it.

this isn't just about money either--we have too many obese kids from wealthy families--discipline costs nothing.

schools are already equipped to do a lot more--why is it we need to feed kids all day at school?

give them a banana or a fruit salad and a container of skim milk and get them out onto the playground!

more community groups and efforts like the Alice Waters venture are needed.

they don't take much funding--just a commitment.

and they are usually more effective because communities know best what they need and what works.

[JohnL]

You're right on the money, John.

I was wondering how "prohibitively" expensive fruits and vegetables are compared to cookies, so I checked out USDA's Economic Reseach Service analyses on this subject. According to their 2004 report How Much Do Americans Pay for Fruits and Vegetables?, even low income households (defined as income 130% or less the "poverty line") can meet their recommended intake of fruit and vegetables by spending only 16% of their average food budget.

Americans do not consume recommended levels of fruits and vegetables. One argument is that they are expensive, especially when purchased fresh. This analysis uses ACNielsen Homescan data on 1999 household food purchases from all types of retail outlets to estimate an annual retail price per pound for 69 forms of fruits and 85 forms of vegetables. . . According to this formula, consumers can meet the recommendations of three servings of fruits and four servings of vegetables daily for 64 cents. Since this represents only 12 percent of daily food expenditures per person in 1999, consumers still have 88 percent of their food dollar left to purchase the other three food groups. (Even low-income households have 84 percent of their food dollar left.)

In other words, it would appear that by and large fruits and vegetables are not prohibitively expensive, even for those with low income, they simply are infrequently chosen. In fact, according to another ERS report, Low-Income Households’ Expenditures on Fruits and Vegetables, in any given week, 19% of low-income homes (as defined above) spend nothing on fruits and vegetables, which is almost twice the rate (10%) for homes with >130% poverty line income. The same report also points out "Interestingly, the largest positive influence on fruit and vegetable expenditures was a college-educated head of household, regardless of income level."

←

I lived in "Little Italy" in the Bronx for years. A poor neighborhood statistically.

This is a veritable paradise for fine high quality fresh foods all within a few minutes walking distance--there were (and are) many obese people walking around children and adults.

Also--many of these poverty statistics based on HH income do not take into account all the money these families receive in the form of government programs and grants (food stamps, earned income credits etc).

I do agree that we have too much poverty (under any definition) and that there is a problem with accessibility of good food and services for many--but in the proper perspective these are not critical factors in the topic at hand. There is a link but it is less than causal.

[Patrick S]

You're right on the money, John.

I was wondering how "prohibitively" expensive fruits and vegetables are compared to cookies, so I checked out USDA's Economic Reseach Service analyses on this subject. According to their 2004 report How Much Do Americans Pay for Fruits and Vegetables?, even low income households (defined as income 130% or less the "poverty line") can meet their recommended intake of fruit and vegetables by spending only 16% of their average food budget.

Americans do not consume recommended levels of fruits and vegetables. One argument is that they are expensive, especially when purchased fresh. This analysis uses ACNielsen Homescan data on 1999 household food purchases from all types of retail outlets to estimate an annual retail price per pound for 69 forms of fruits and 85 forms of vegetables. . . According to this formula, consumers can meet the recommendations of three servings of fruits and four servings of vegetables daily for 64 cents. Since this represents only 12 percent of daily food expenditures per person in 1999, consumers still have 88 percent of their food dollar left to purchase the other three food groups. (Even low-income households have 84 percent of their food dollar left.)

In other words, it would appear that by and large fruits and vegetables are not prohibitively expensive, even for those with low income, they simply are infrequently chosen. In fact, according to another ERS report, Low-Income Households’ Expenditures on Fruits and Vegetables, in any given week, 19% of low-income homes (as defined above) spend nothing on fruits and vegetables, which is almost twice the rate (10%) for homes with >130% poverty line income. The same report also points out "Interestingly, the largest positive influence on fruit and vegetable expenditures was a college-educated head of household, regardless of income level."

←

I lived in "Little Italy" in the Bronx for years. A poor neighborhood statistically.

This is a veritable paradise for fine high quality fresh foods all within a few minutes walking distance--there were (and are) many obese people walking around children and adults.

←

Sure, absolutely. My point wasn't that eating fruits and vegetables will prevent you from getting fat, only that nutritious fruits and vegetables are not necessarily prohibitively expensive for people with lower incomes, which is what the story about the woman buying the cookies instead of fruit for her obese daughter seemed to be implying.

Edited March 1, 2006 by Patrick S (log)

[bandregg]

In one word the problem is: education. There is a lack of education about food, food choices, calories, exercise, and health. And education needs to be taught with simple examples and guidelines. There is a terrific scene in "Super Size Me" where Subway's Jarod gives a seminar about weight and food choice. Afterword he talks with a mother and daughter who thank him profusely for being there and teaching people without making judgement. BUT, after Jarod leaves the frame the girl says, "I think it's great, and it will really help, but it was easy for him. I can't afford to eat at Subway everyday." Which, by the way, wasn't his advice at all. That lack of understanding what she'd just been told, and the want for an easy, simple solution was the most disturbing part of the movie for me. People need to be taught that there is a direct connection between food and health and well-being and taught and taugh again.

A constant theme in Cornbread Nation 3: Foods of the Mountain South is that poverty never meant that people ate unheathily. There are a lot of ways to eat very healthy without spending much money, heck even at Whole Foods dried lentils and other dried beans are remarkably cheap.

[TPO]

A few years ago, NPR interviewed a single mother living in New York City.  Her daughter was 8 years old and was quite overweight.  The mother said that at the store, she could by grapes for $3/lb which were invariably moldy and would rot within a day.  Or, she could buy cookies for less than $1, which would last forever.  She said it bothered her, but she always chose the cookies -- she couldn't afford the produce, and even if she could, the produce sold at inner city markets tends to be rotten.  The announcer on NPR said that what ends up in inner city stores is produce that suburban grocery stores could not sell.  When money is tight, families are going to be forced to buy inexpensive food and inevitably highly processed that family members will eat and not complain about.

←

I kinda sympathize, but not much. If this women thought her only choices were moldy grapes or . . . cookies, its no wonder her daughter is overweight, and it sounds like she needs some training on how to shop. Eating healthy doesn't have to be any more expensive than eating unhealthy. Even if the produce is garbage there are plenty of other choices.

←

Wow, is that an oversimplified answer! How are you supposed to reach that good, healthful food if you don't have transportation, or you're working two jobs? Just because the woman was in New York City, that doesn't mean the stores in her neighborhood have affordable, healthful food. And have you tried shopping for a family by bus?

←

I don't think my answer was oversimplified at all. I think the real oversimplication is pretending that you have to buy cookies for your obese daughter because the grapes are moldy. I lived for many years on minimum wage, and therefore know from my own experience that you can find reasonably affordable healthy food in just about any grocery.

←

I agree with most of the above posts. For low-income people in inner city neighborhoods, it's not as simple as "there are more choices than grapes." Many things factor into this, from not having the luxury to buy foods your kids won't like and having them spoil to not having the time between your 2.5 jobs to travel miles on a subway trying to get to various stores.

When I lived on minimum wage, my groceries consisted of hot dogs and rice even though I lived near good grocery stores. Minimum wage is the same all across the country even though living expenses vary. My rent was about 70% of my income. I can't imagine how much harder it would have been with a child also dependent on that remaining 30%.

However, if school meals were healthier this child might get better breakfasts and lunches nine months out of the year. If both children and parents were better educated about health and nutrition, the mother might have realized that if all she can afford is cookies and macaroni and cheese, then she needs to balance that with smaller portions and adequate exercise. And the child might have learned that when she ate better she felt better, and that might have made her want foods that were less processed but still affordable, like oatmeal, canned fruit, and cheese.

Edited March 1, 2006 by TPO (log)

[jsolomon]

In one word the problem is: education.

←

Have you seen the number of fat professors in my University's Food Science department?

Education isn't the issue, it's initiative. We want a quick fix. But, we fail to see that we got fat over a significant period of time, and it will probably take a similar period to get well. But, we lack the initiative to do anything about it, and we lack the self-awareness to notice we're getting a little doughy before we're busting the axles on our SUV's.

[Patrick S]

A few years ago, NPR interviewed a single mother living in New York City.  Her daughter was 8 years old and was quite overweight.  The mother said that at the store, she could by grapes for $3/lb which were invariably moldy and would rot within a day.  Or, she could buy cookies for less than $1, which would last forever.  She said it bothered her, but she always chose the cookies -- she couldn't afford the produce, and even if she could, the produce sold at inner city markets tends to be rotten.  The announcer on NPR said that what ends up in inner city stores is produce that suburban grocery stores could not sell.  When money is tight, families are going to be forced to buy inexpensive food and inevitably highly processed that family members will eat and not complain about.

←

I kinda sympathize, but not much. If this women thought her only choices were moldy grapes or . . . cookies, its no wonder her daughter is overweight, and it sounds like she needs some training on how to shop. Eating healthy doesn't have to be any more expensive than eating unhealthy. Even if the produce is garbage there are plenty of other choices.

←

Wow, is that an oversimplified answer! How are you supposed to reach that good, healthful food if you don't have transportation, or you're working two jobs? Just because the woman was in New York City, that doesn't mean the stores in her neighborhood have affordable, healthful food. And have you tried shopping for a family by bus?

←

I don't think my answer was oversimplified at all. I think the real oversimplication is pretending that you have to buy cookies for your obese daughter because the grapes are moldy. I lived for many years on minimum wage, and therefore know from my own experience that you can find reasonably affordable healthy food in just about any grocery.

←

I agree with most of the above posts. For low-income people in inner city neighborhoods, it's not as simple as "there are more choices than grapes."

←

Sure. Pointing out that there are more choices than grapes and cookies is not a solution for obesity, it's a common-sense response to someone who, like the person Amylou described, says she consistently buys cookies for her obese daughter because the grapes are moldy.

[Patrick S]

In one word the problem is: education.

←

Have you seen the number of fat professors in my University's Food Science department?

Education isn't the issue, it's initiative.

←

I would think that both education and motivation are essential, though you are obviously right that education alone is not sufficient. After all, millions of people continue to smoke even though the health risks are widely understood.

[kpurvis]

I would hope that kpurvis would post a link or some information on the journalistic work she did in inner-city grocery stores. Lots of good information there.

←

It may be a moot point after all the disagreement on the issue, but I was able to get a link to the original series. The link will take you to the column I described, and on the right side of the page, there are four related links. The first is a sidebar, about transporting the elderly to stores, and the next three are the three main stories in the series, in order.

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/living/13991541.htm

Edited March 1, 2006 by kpurvis (log)

[Carrot Top]

I don't think that anything "linked" to this issue is moot at all, really.

In front of me are five books, all on obesity, one focusing on it as a health issue, one seeing it as a social and/or cultural issue, another as a mental health issue, another in defense of "fatness", and one specifically speaking of genetics, DNA, and neurology.

These books are all from a university library and are used as reference material on the subject.

Talk about a confusing issue. And an issue with so many things that potentially contribute to the "cause" of it.

I'm happy to have the link to review. I thought your research and findings valid and important.

P.S. The reason you didn't see my request for the info before you posted was that I saw your name reading, and did *not* want you to leave the thread without adding what seemed to me to be pertinent information, if this subject is to be looked at in a broad and inclusive fashion. So, serendipity strikes again!

[MarketStEl]

A few years ago, NPR interviewed a single mother living in New York City.  Her daughter was 8 years old and was quite overweight.  The mother said that at the store, she could by grapes for $3/lb which were invariably moldy and would rot within a day.  Or, she could buy cookies for less than $1, which would last forever.  She said it bothered her, but she always chose the cookies -- she couldn't afford the produce, and even if she could, the produce sold at inner city markets tends to be rotten.  The announcer on NPR said that what ends up in inner city stores is produce that suburban grocery stores could not sell.  When money is tight, families are going to be forced to buy inexpensive food and inevitably highly processed that family members will eat and not complain about.

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I kinda sympathize, but not much. If this women thought her only choices were moldy grapes or . . . cookies, its no wonder her daughter is overweight, and it sounds like she needs some training on how to shop. Eating healthy doesn't have to be any more expensive than eating unhealthy. Even if the produce is garbage there are plenty of other choices.

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For instance...?

If you like, I could invite you to come along with me to the one "food market" I've seen so far in Chester--which, like so many inner-city stores in cities without supermarkets (Chester being one such place), has a very limited selection of fresh anything--and maybe we could put together a healthy grocery list from what's available.

I will grant that she has choices other than cookies or bad produce, but in most cases, those choices are all highly processed foods that carry their own downsides with them. About the only fresh meats to be found in these stores are in the deli case, if the store has one.

(Chester residents are not completely bereft, though. Those with cars--or those willing to schlep their stuff back home via SEPTA bus route 118--can patronize a Save-a-Lot about a mile beyond the city limits in suburban Brookhaven, and the no-frills Save-a-Lot chain does offer a good selection of decent, reasonably priced fresh produce and meats. But Chester is fairly spread out for a small city, and for many residents without cars, getting to the Save-a-Lot would require a bus ride downtown first to transfer to the 118. In older, denser, low-income urban communities, there's really no substitute for a good supermarket within walking distance.)

[MarketStEl]

I would hope that kpurvis would post a link or some information on the journalistic work she did in inner-city grocery stores. Lots of good information there.

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It may be a moot point after all the disagreement on the issue, but I was able to get a link to the original series. The link will take you to the column I described, and on the right side of the page, there are four related links. The first is a sidebar, about transporting the elderly to stores, and the next three are the three main stories in the series, in order.

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/living/13991541.htm

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(I'll read the series later, when I get home.)

One example of a supermarket operator who has figured out that you can make money in the inner city is Supermarkets General (Pathmark), which has made opening inner-city stores something of a specialty over the last decade or so.

Their store at North Philadelphia Station is busy at almost all hours of the day.