Japanese pastry vs French pastry

[sanrensho]

That is why I insist on this matter. It's not because it's called "High class food" that it's the best that the country has to offer. You can eat better at home that in some high class restaurants etc....

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This seems like a hopeless generalization. While it is certainly true that some things are better made at home or purchased through "common" outlets, it is equally true that other things are best made by purveyors at the top of their game.

For instance, I would not want to compare a homemade kasutera cake, or even cheap supermarket kasutera, against some of the top brands in Japan. In this case, the high-end brand is certainly more representative of the product and recognized by the general population as the "standard."

In other words, I don't think you can generalize what is more "common" or "representative" except on a case-by-case basis. Regardless, I still find it more interesting to compare top patisseries rather than Western pastries at the bottom or middle end of the spectrum. Besides, it's a pointless comparison to make when discussing Western pastries. Japan has nowhere near the history or tradition of Western pastries, so it is completely unreasonable to expect the same level of quality as in France, except at the upper end of the spectrum.

Also, I consider the price issue irrelevant. The plain and simple fact is that living costs are higher in Japan, which extends to the cost of pastries.

Edited March 23, 2006 by sanrensho (log)

[Pan]

My exposure to Japanese European-influenced pastries has been at Beard Papa in New York. How does that fit into this discussion, if at all?

[sanrensho]

Puccaland, as a point of reference, could you please post some links (if any) to what you would consider everyday, neighborhood ("non-trendy") patisseries in Paris?

I'd be interested in seeing what most of the French population eats outside of the well-known boutiques.

[bleudauvergne]

This evening I heard the announcement on the national news here in France:

Mari Tanaka, chef chef pâtissière of Alan Ducasse's Plaza Athénée has won the French dessert championship held today. The young Japanese woman, who has been working in the restaurant for two years, won the competition with her "Crousti-fondant aux agrumes et sirop d'érable" (citrus and maple syrup 'crousti-fondant').

[Margaret Pilgrim]

The world is shrinking and we should probably get used to it. Some half dozen years ago we visited a very small village (read: no gas station, no tourist shop, no general store, larders dependent on weekly market some very long 10 km away). We spent several days in this village in order to enjoy its only claim to fame, the annual lavender fair.

We stayed in the French version of a B&B, enjoyed several excellent dinners there, prepared by a Japanese cook as well as the more linguistic Japanese pastry chef. Understand that this was not a Michelin recognized place, but a very humble inn. Meals, as I remember, cost around $20. for 4 courses, wine included. The food was traditional French Haute Provence.

That Ducasse would recognize talent regardless of its origin should be no surprise.

[puccaland]

Sanrensho wrote

"Puccaland, as a point of reference, could you please post some links (if any) to what you would consider everyday, neighborhood ("non-trendy") patisseries in Paris?"

Are you kidding? I don't think traditional artisans have websites. The only place you could find them on the web is probably the Yellow Pages. What you are asking is the same as to ask for the website of the Tabacco shop of the corner.

Well about "you eat better at home", I talked about people that know how to cook of course.

Anyway ask to chiefs where they learnt to cook....it's not at school. People who know how to cook properly don't have nothing to envy from chiefs. I am talking in term of quality and good meal. Now what the chiefs make and what common people make is different in term of preparation, presentation etc....You can even go to a restaurant where you pay 200$/course, you're not sure to eat better than in some houses.

[sanrensho]

Are you kidding? I don't think traditional artisans have websites.

Sure they do. But perhaps not in France nor among French patisseries. Which is why I asked. It doesn't hurt to ask, does it?

Well about "you eat better at home", I talked about people that know how to cook of course.

I still don't see the point of this generalization, especially as it applies pastries. Some things are made well at home, and some things are made well by dedicated pros working in a professional pastry kitchen who make the same pastries day in and day out. And, yes, this even applies to people that "know how to cook."

Let's just agree to disagree on this point.

[puccaland]

Are you kidding? I don't think traditional artisans have websites.

Sure they do. But perhaps not in France nor among French patisseries. Which is why I asked. It doesn't hurt to ask, does it?

Well about "you eat better at home", I talked about people that know how to cook of course.

I still don't see the point of this generalization, especially as it applies pastries. Some things are made well at home, and some things are made well by dedicated pros working in a professional pastry kitchen who make the same pastries day in and day out. And, yes, this even applies to people that "know how to cook."

Let's just agree to disagree on this point.

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Actually I am not generalizing. What I am trying to say, according to the point that "we are talking about high class stuff because it's better to compare with the best of a country" is that it's not because it's labelled "high class" that it's the best the country has to offer. The point in this discussion was Pastry in general in Japan and in France, it wasn't a discussion about high class pastry I guess. Justly about Pastry (I don't know about Japan) it was said that what you find at Fauchon etc...that are called "Pastry of luxury" are maybe more expensive but not better than what you can find at some traditional bakeries that are the places where the whole majority of French people go to buy pastries.

About food in general what is made in high class restaurant, that concerns so many few people, doesn't represent at all French food in general. Good example were showed before.

So assuming that wa can talk about French food only talking about what we eat in high class restaurants is just irrelevant (I found a better word than "nonsense"). In all meals eaten in France only 12% are eaten outside home, (compared to some countries where people eat more outside), all kind of restaurant included (Fast Food, traditional, high class, middle, industrial etc...) I didn't have time to find the rate of meals eaten in high class restaurants but let's assume it's very low. So talking about generalization, I can't understand we're talking about a minority to describe a global fact.

That is why my first intervention here...what are we talking about?

Now to compare French pastries to Japanese ones, ok if you compare pastries of the same scales. But to compare French technic to the Japanese one, I guess it's more accurate to talk about the global technic than to the special and sometimes exceptional things we can find in high class places.

[Ptipois]

Actually I am not generalizing. What I am trying to say, according to the point that "we are talking about high class stuff because it's better to compare with the best of a country" is that it's not because it's labelled "high class" that it's the best the country has to offer. The point in this discussion was Pastry in general in Japan and in France, it wasn't a discussion about high class pastry I guess. Justly about Pastry (I don't know about Japan) it was said that what you find at Fauchon etc...that are called "Pastry of luxury" are maybe more expensive but not better than what you can find at some traditional bakeries that are the places where the whole majority of French people go to buy pastries.

About food in general what is made in high class restaurant, that concerns so many few people, doesn't represent at all French food in general. Good example were showed before.

So assuming that wa can talk about French food only talking about what we eat in high class restaurants is just irrelevant (I found a better word than "nonsense"). In all meals eaten in France only 12% are eaten outside home, (compared to some countries where people eat more outside), all kind of restaurant included (Fast Food, traditional, high class, middle, industrial etc...) I didn't have time to find the rate of meals eaten in high class restaurants but let's assume it's very low. So talking about generalization, I can't understand we're talking about a minority to describe a global fact.

That is why my first intervention here...what are we talking about?

Well, good question. We seem to have strayed into matters unrelated to the initial posts. Comparing "luxury" levels, etc., when all that was asked first was why French-style Japanese pastry, as some had noticed, was generally of such high quality compared to its equivalents in France. A case of disciples surpassing the masters, and so on. Which was pretty much my impression in Japan. Now if you do insist on making social levels relevant, fine. So let's focus on high-quality pastry, because as an example of what a country can do best, it is the most relevant choice regarding the discussion.

And nothing can change the fact that high-quality French-style Japanese pastry compares favorably with its Franco-French equivalent. Just ask some French pâtissiers having opened pastry shops or chains in Japan and they will tell you how hard it is to keep up with the skills of local pâtissiers and the demands of the public.

[pirate]

And nothing can change the fact that high-quality French-style Japanese pastry compares favorably with its Franco-French equivalent. Just ask some French pâtissiers having opened pastry shops or chains in Japan and they will tell you how hard it is to keep up with the skills of local pâtissiers and the demands of the public.

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I've posted earlier in this thread. I agree with the quoted statement. I was in Tokyo two weeks ago and had a continental breakfast daily in my room at the Park Hyatt for eight days. The tomato juice was freshly squeezed ( not true at the Park Hyatt in Paris). The croissants and viennoiseries were excellent.. One new feature on this visit was an American muffin. The chocolate-walnut variety was delicious. I haven't had American muffins in France.

[Hiro]

HI to all,, sometimes i check out this forum and find something new from others people around the worlds, altough sometime becoming an argue but i still find it interesting, with some chef or food lover experiences (thanks). so i just say dont extend this forum becoming nation food war (is it?), maybe i wrote it wrong "Japanese VS french pastry". maybe i shouldnt use the "VS" word in the first place, but i have no intent to comapare it in which is the best but "what makes it different". i dont care which one is better but what makes it, that's what i want to know

so peace, keep sharing and lets eat cakes..sweeettttttt

[John Talbott]

Figaro Madame had two articles, one on Japanese pastry by Maya Blanc that featured: Kitchoan, 17, place de la Madeleine in the 8th, 01.40.06.91.28, Toraya, 10, rue Saint-Florentin in the 1st, 01.42.60.13.00 and Chajin, 24, rue Pasquier in the 8th, 01.53.30.05.24, the other by Alexandra Michot on sexy looking pastry.

[cachan]

In London, there is Tetote Factory in South Ealing, just transferred from Colindale.

[Dave Hatfield]

I've been following this topic with great interest & finally have to add my opinion for what its worth.

First let me mention my qualifications such as they are. My first visit to France was nearly 50 years ago & I've been eating French pastry off & on ever since especially the last ten years as we now live in SW France. During the 1990's I spent a lot of time in Japan, multiple visits of multiple weeks & ate quite a lot of Japanese made 'French' pastry. Based upon that experience I have a few observations: (first let me admit that I'm not a great lover of pastry. My observations are more along the lines of eating croissants, pain Au raison & pain au chocolate along with lots of bread.)

- I think the standards in Paris have deteriorated quite a bit over the years. The quest there seems to be for novelty & new twists. The fundamentals seem to be left by the wayside.

- The standards out in the country haven't slipped nearly as much over the years if at all in my opinion. The local customers won't allow it.

- The pastry in Japan was good 20 years ago & knowing the Japanese culture I would assume that its gotten even better.

In either country (or the states or the UK for that matter)the more complex pastry seems of place far more emphasis on looks over taste. Too much sugar, strange ingredients that don't always work and novelty value are far too common. This trend seems strongest in Paris. (Tokyo currently?I'm not competent to judge.)Provincial bakers mainly stick to older tried & true recipes that their 'country' customers are used to.

The Japanese bakers true to their culture will emulate whatever they think is the best at first. Once having that down pat they will steadily & incrementally improve upon it. Thus since they were very good at the standards 20 years ago I'd be surprised if they're not really, really excellent by now.

An interesting comparison would be to test a top quality provincial French product with a similar one from Tokyo. Given distance & freshness issues it would be difficult.

I don't think I'd put it up against the best, but you'd have a hard time beating the croissants or pain au raisin or plain old bread made by our little local baker in our village of 500 souls. An honest product from an honest man.

Great discussion though.

[RandyB]

Amazing to see this thread revive after 5 years of dormancy.

It struck a chord with me because of a new bakery opening recently in the Seattle area. We are already blessed with a small bakery, Cafe Besalu, that makes croissants and pains au chocolat that would compete with the very best in Paris. By best, I am thinking of Pierre Hermé, for example. His plain croissants, not his oversweetened ispahan flavored one.

The baker at Cafe Besalu is American, trained in Switzerland. No one in Seattle was at his level until that new bakery opened up. It's called Fuji Bakery. The head pastry chef, Taka Hirai, is Japanese. He says he trained in Japan, not France, at the École de Pâtisserie and at the Tokyo Robuchon restaurant.

His croissants are a little lighter than at Besalu or Hermé, but the taste and texture are superb. They are much better than most I've found traveling around France. That might not be saying much by itself. I have to agree with those who pointed out the deteriorated state of French bakeries in general, back when this thread was young.

I've only been to Japan once. I never tried the French pastries there. Didn't seem any point to it.