i need your help (sample menu)

[bunny]

I am currently in the process of looking at several locations to possiably open up my own place. I kinda have a menu written up and was just wondering what everyone here thinks of it. please don't mind the spelling i can't spell

starters

duo of duck:

asian marinated duck with scallions ginger red pepper and calintro layered over pototoe gurfets with a orange glaze.

bbq spiced duck served over a grilled marscapone plenta cake with a sweet corn sauce.

frog legs nantucket:

frog legs sauteed with shallots,garlic and shittake mushrooms served w/ a brandy demi and granished oven roasted plum tom.

grilled calamari:

served w/a wasabi watercress sauce and garnished w/grilled cherry tom.

5 onion soup w/bone marrow

soup du jour

grilled apple and raspberry salad w/walnuts and mixed greens

lobster aspragus salad

salad of artcokes cucumber and tom.

entree

herb crusted black bass:

panseared served over saffron rissito w/grilled yellow squash and zuccini with a roasted veg demi-glace garnished w/3 shrimp

mandarin salmon:

marinated in a trio of oranges then char-grilled over an open flame served over a bed of cucumbers and carrots w/blood orange sauce garnished with micro-greens.

broiled rack of lamb:

cardamon crusted and served w/celric puree and hircot verts

tournedo rossini:

pan seared served over a crouton and foie gras w/sauce mederia and granished w/white truffle shavings.

veal t-bone:

marinated and grilled w/provencal roasted tom.

roasted saddle of rabbit

served w/root veg.

baked blue fish:

with parsley and tom and roasted red bliss pot.

hailbut:

sauteed w/citrus burre blanc garnished w/julienne veg.

tell me what u guys think of this menu and weakness or anything else you wish to comment about. if anything looks or sounds to boring any and all comments are welcome.

[SobaAddict70]

Other people will probably add to this, but here are my initial two cents. I'm not qualified to comment on certain aesthetics, having insufficient experience (i.e., wine), so will leave it to the experts. (::)

What's a potato "gurfet"?

The duck looks mildly interesting, but seems a little heavy to me (particularly the bbq one). I'm not sure serving it with an overly (potentially) rich item like a mascarpone polenta cake is a good idea. I understand where you're coming from, as you're probably looking for something to set off the intense flavors of the duck on something soft and creamy. Perhaps you might consider leaving out the mascarpone and letting the polenta speak for itself. Ditto for the Asian marinated duck -- competing flavors -- spicy/sweet. The danger here is that the orange glaze might prove overwhelming to the dominant flavors in the marinade.

The herb crusted black bass sounds interesting but may suffer from "too many elements" syndrome. Do you really need the shrimp in there? I think you mean roasted vegetable jus or puree, not demi-glace. Demi-glace would overwhelm the fish and risotto.

By a trio of oranges, what do you mean?

For the veal, what does the marinade consist of?

Also, what is the focus of your restaurant? It seems to me that you're leaning towards a fish-predominant menu. Will it change seasonally, or is the menu fixed?

SA

[bunny]

the gurfet is a waffle cut pototoe.

the black bass i did mean jus not demi

the duck the orange glaze would not be on the duck itself it would be a sauce served on the dish dotted around the item itself. i will also take into consideration what you said about the ploenta.

trio of oranges the juice of 3 diffrent type of oranges along with there zests

veal-rosemary,thyme,garlic,evoo,balsamic vin

the menu will change seasonly and such and seafood does relly well where i am considering opening up that is why there is alot of seafood on the menu.

thank you for you comments

[cabrales]

bunny -- While I do not have any experience with respect to menu composition, here are some questions/thoughts:

-- Your proposed utilization of tomatoes in many dishes (5/16, including garnishes) is commendable. (I also happen to like your Avatar.) However, I am not sure the tomato garnish would be the best pairing with frogs' legs. Would the acidity of the tomato (acknowledging its sweet components as well) match well with the brandy demi? Would the dish be too busy with the addition of the tomato garnish?

-- I assume, on your actual menu, you would not actually have all of the garnishings and other components described for every dish. On the actual menu, "Asian" marinated duck seems a bit weird right above "bbq spiced duck", as certain diners might (inappropriately) equate Asian duck preparations with Chinese BBQ duck. What spicing are you utilization for the bbq spiced duck, and what intended effects are you proposing relative to the asian marinated duck (when the two are part of a dish)?

-- On your menu, you might want to place frogs' legs lower in your list of appetizers. Some diners become "put off" by them, and a duck duo and frogs' list set of dishes as the first two on your list may not be the best thing.

-- How would the bone marrow be presented in the onion soup dish? Would it be next to the soup, presented separately, and intended to highlight the depth of the soup? If in the soup, wouldn't the soup overwhelm the delicacy of the marrow? What balance are you intending to achieve with five onion types? I assume this onion soup would not have cheese. If it would, would that work with the bone marrow?

-- What is the intended vinaigrette for the salad of artichokes, cucumber and tomatoes? What types of tomatoes would you use in this dish?

-- Have you chosen to omit a vegetarian entree?

-- On the tournedo rossini, would white truffles and foie gras be a little bit too much? Also, are you only going to use shavings of white truffles when they are in season? I assume you are using white truffles from Alba. How are you going to price this dish? When I sample truffles, I subjectively enjoy them with usually simpler dishes. However, I can see other diners coming out differently.

-- As background, what is your wine list going to be like? Also, do you contemplate effective control of wasted food products, given the combination of dishes proposed?

[SobaAddict70]

Additional comments:

1. I assume the salad of artichokes, tomatoes and cucumbers will be a chopped salad of some sort. I concur with cabrales -- what kind of viniagrette or dressing will you serve?

2. Several garnishes are tomatoes in some form -- have you considered other types of garnishes? You may want to, to avoid over-similarity. As an aside (to cabrales and others) -- is this a problem in other restaurants that you've encountered -- too many similar garnishes?

3. The lobster asparagus salad sounds right for late spring or early summer. You may want to consider varying this dish according to what's available at the market, so that the consistent element of the salad is the lobster component, while the vegetables reflect availability at the greenmarket.

4. You may want to consider the rack of lamb again -- having it crusted with cardamom might overwhelm the meat (cardamom is potentially a powerful sweet spice, used in less than judicious quantities), and may run counter to the delicacy of the haricot verts and celeriac puree.

5. Will there be any desserts?

SA

[Basildog]

Bunny.whats your history up to this point of going out on your own?

How big a place are you looking for? Whats the background to this venture?

Best of luck

edit.2 fish with citrus flavours???? hmmmmm

[tommy]

i'm in total agreement on the gratuitous shrimp. rarely is it a-peeling. seriously.

[LaNiña]

" the gurfet is a waffle cut pototoe."

Bunny, do you mean "gaufrette?"

[bunny]

bunny -- While I do not have any experience with respect to menu composition, here are some questions/thoughts:

-- Your proposed utilization of tomatoes in many dishes (5/16, including garnishes) is commendable. (I also happen to like your Avatar.) However, I am not sure the tomato garnish would be the best pairing with frogs' legs. Would the acidity of the tomato (acknowledging its sweet components as well) match well with the brandy demi?  Would the dish be too busy with the addition of the tomato garnish? 

-- I assume, on your actual menu, you would not actually have all of the garnishings and other components described for every dish. On the actual menu, "Asian" marinated duck seems a bit weird right above "bbq spiced duck", as certain diners might (inappropriately) equate Asian duck preparations with Chinese BBQ duck.  What spicing are you utilization for the bbq spiced duck, and what intended effects are you proposing relative to the asian marinated duck (when the two are part of a dish)?

-- On your menu, you might want to place frogs' legs lower in your list of appetizers. Some diners become "put off" by them, and a duck duo and frogs' list set of dishes as the first two on your list may not be the best thing.

-- How would the bone marrow be presented in the onion soup dish?  Would it be next to the soup, presented separately, and intended to highlight the depth of the soup?  If in the soup, wouldn't the soup overwhelm the delicacy of the marrow? What balance are you intending to achieve with five onion types? I assume this onion soup would not have cheese.  If it would, would that work with the bone marrow?

-- What is the intended vinaigrette for the salad of artichokes, cucumber and tomatoes? What types of tomatoes would you use in this dish?

-- Have you chosen to omit a vegetarian entree?

-- On the tournedo rossini, would white truffles and foie gras be a little bit too much? Also, are you only going to use shavings of white truffles when they are in season? I assume you are using white truffles from Alba. How are you going to price this dish? When I sample truffles, I subjectively enjoy them with usually simpler dishes. However, I can see other diners coming out differently.

-- As background, what is your wine list going to be like? Also, do you contemplate effective control of wasted food products, given the combination of dishes proposed?

cabrales

first off no on the menu itself i will not have the garnishes listed i did that here so people could get an idea of what the dishes would look like and consist of.

the frog legs- when i have made the dish in the past for friends i have gotten mixed reviews on the tom aspect in the dish some liked it some didn't it seemed somewhat of a 50/50 split in that reguard in the final menu i may choose to omit them. i put them in on this menu so that i could get feed back from people on how certin thing would work.

the duck-bbq spicings-chili,cumin,corriander,cayenne,dry mustard,blk pepper,sugar and salt.

onion soup-bone marrow- the soup would not be served with any cheese and the bone marrow would be served on the side. i am also trying to decide if the bone marrow would be served in the bone or perhaps on a toast point of some sort. and yes you are right i am using the marrow to show the depth of the soup.

the vinaigrette would be a citrus one. the tom. in this dish would be plum.

as far as the vegetarian entree good catch as i did over look it.

the truffles would only be used in season as i would use a diffrent garnish when they are in there off seasons.

as far as a wine list i will be a byo at first as a liquor licenseis out of my reach at the momment.

as fars wasted food product i hope to keep those to min as i would use all leftovers to run daily specials of some sort.

[cabrales]

2.  Several garnishes are tomatoes in some form -- have you considered other types of garnishes?  You may want to, to avoid over-similarity.  As an aside (to cabrales and others) -- is this a problem in other restaurants that you've encountered -- too many similar garnishes?

bunny -- Soba makes a good point. While I subjectively like tomatoes (not necessarily as garnishes), I do think they are overused as a garnish at restaurants in the US. For me, the frogs' legs dish, as I mentioned might be better off without the tomato garnish. As might the calamari dish, come to think of it. Wouldn't something non-acidic/non-sweet, and more of a neutral (but not unflavorful) base for the bitterness of the watercress and the strength of the wasabi in the saucing be preferable? Presumaby the calamari might also have some charred edges from the grilling, and that could play into the saucing. You might also want to focus on whether the pairing of tomatoes with the blue fish entree is ideal.

-- Frogs' legs. You might want to see the Buerehiesel thread in the France forum for a way of pushing the meat of frogs' legs together that might be interesting for you. Also, while you might use both garlic and shallots, I'm not sure both tend to be described on a menu (in particular, garlic tends not to be highlighted at times).

-- If the salmon will have a three-orange preparation, you might not want to use a citrus beurre blanc for the halibut, so that clients not interested in citrus could choose one of those fish preparations. I appreciate there is the baked blue fish. Edit: Basildog has covered this point already. Also, if a citrus-based vinaigrette is being utilized for the tom/cucumber/artichokes, that's another source of citrus.

-- Interestingly, you do not propose pasta, except in the risotto accompanying the bass. In NJ, is there a significant dining pool that likes pasta-based dishes as entrees? I appreciate the type of cuisine you are proposing may not readily accommodate that. Just a factor to consider.

-- I am unsure a vinaigrette of citrus would be ideal for artichokes, cucumber and tomatoes. What do other members think?

[Rosie]

Bunny--What type of prices are you going to charge and will they fit in with your food costs? You have raspberries, foie gras, truffles and lobster on your menu. I'd omit the frog legs unless you know that your patrons will order them more than once a month. Will you be using fresh baby artichokes? Veal T-bone--love it. Will you be using prime meat? Blue fish is a seasonal dish and not everyone's favorite. I'd use it as a special. I would also put a chicken dish on the menu. Will you have a liquor license? Are you planning on opening in a large city?

[cabrales]

I would also put a chicken dish on the menu.

Rosie -- Yes, I agree.

[Suzanne F]

Bunny: I have not yet read anyone else's comments, so maybe they already asked you:

Have you already raised enough money to build out AND stay open for a year with no customers?

Do you have sources to find consultants on:

- restaurant law,

- restaurant accounting,

- staffing (front AND back of house),

- sourcing of ingredients (purveyors),

- waste removal,

- linen services,

- managing your landlord (as opposed to your LL managing YOU)?

Why are you doing this? Because you love to cook? Because you love to have parties? Or because YOU WANT TO RUN A SUCCESSFUL BUSINESS?

[bunny]

i wrote this twice already the damn power keeps goin out. lets try it one more time.

suezanne f: yes i do have access to people in the industry who could help me out as far as everything you mentioned in your list. and the reason you ask why i wanna do this is two reasons. i love to cook and i want and am determined to run a very siccessful business.

rosie: chicken dish- there will be one on the final menu i just have not been able to comeup with one that i would like to serve yet. also as far as locaton i am looking in AP right now and i will be a byo as i can in way afford a LL right now. price wise as you noted i do have some pricey items in the menu although i will keep the prices as lows as i can i am assuming i will be more in the moderatly high range as also that is more the cliental i would also be serving mostly i feel. the average joe is not gonna want to go out and eat foie gras and such in my opion.

cabreles-as a note i will not on my final menu list all the ingredents and such as i did here the reason for my doing of this here is so that everyone can get a grasp of what i am trying to put together as far as taste smell texture flavor and appereance. if i didn't list things here your point about the frog legs and tom. would have gone over looked i belive. pasta the reason for me leaving a pasta dish off the menu was for the reason of running pasta dish as a special. due to the realtivly low cost of pasta and utalizing my leftovers from other dishes i hope to have at least 1 if not 2 pasta dishes on special daily.

lets run through the dishes:

duck -any one care to comment on it now that i explained it a little more

frog legs- other then the tom. issue any other input

calamari-the tom agin what would you suggest then

onion soup w/b.marrow- does it make more sense now

grilled apple salad-no comments on it so far so i guess its good

lob/asp salad-as someone noted earlier this dish will be seasonal as far as whats in it as far as veg and possiably the lobster also may sub crab at times or what ever else i can get as freshest.

art/cucumber/tom salad-might not make the cut not sure yet

bass- shrimp omitted

salmon-no comments yet so, so far so good

lamb-cardamon crust may be changed to something else this is one of the things i have been playing with

tournedo-i am gonna re-evaluate it

veal t-bone- no comments yet

rabbit- i am suprised no said anything yet about it

bluefish- may change it to red snapper and tweek the dish

halibut- thinking of a pototoe crusted something or other any ideas

keep the comments comming

thanks guys and gals

[ngatti]

Hi bunny. I couldn't resist. None of what I'm about to say should be construed as criticism. Just my take on what you posted. Some suggestions and some casual and very VERY friendly observations.

Whew! Now that that's out of the way I can start.

duo of duck:

asian marinated duck with scallions ginger red pepper and calintro layered over pototoe gurfets with a orange glaze.

bbq spiced duck served over a grilled marscapone plenta cake with a sweet corn sauce

Both dishes sound very nice by themselves, each alone, but as a duet they seem mismatched and slightly over the top. These are appetizers, right?

Less is sometimes more.

frog legs nantucket:

frog legs sauteed with shallots,garlic and shittake mushrooms served w/ a brandy demi and granished oven roasted plum tom.

I tend to agree with Rosie. Frogs legs can be a tough sell. Perhaps better saved for a special. At this point in time oven roasted tomatoes ( as well as shitakes) tend to the prosaic and sometimes add little to a dish. Perhaps you may want to 'punch this dish up with similar but more edibly interesting ingredients. Although you may feel the need to use them in this dish the listing as an ingredient, especially as only a garnish seems unnecessary.

grilled calamari:

served w/a wasabi watercress sauce and garnished w/grilled cherry tom.

I really like the sound of this dish and I only have one caveat. Perhaps you may wish to practice grilling a cherry tomato before listing it as an ingredient (perhaps roasted or charred)

5 onion soup w/bone marrow

I also like this dish. My suggestion has to do with the number of onions. Why not choose one very interesting and flavorful onion (vidalia, maui sweet) and concentrate its flavor. The 5 onions may tend to muddy up flavorwise resulting in something other than what you intended for the dish. The marrow makes an interesting and flavorful touch.

grilled apple and raspberry salad w/walnuts and mixed greens

Much depends on the greens and the dressing. So far you've got a nice start. I'm sure you mean to think this one through a bit more.

lobster aspragus salad,  salad of artcokes cucumber and tom.

Again it's difficult to tell much about these dishes based on what you've written. They sound more like germs of ideas awaiting further thought and development.

herb crusted black bass:

panseared served over saffron rissito w/grilled yellow squash and zuccini with a roasted veg demi-glace garnished w/3 shrimp

I like the bass. Remember a fresh herb crust will be a burnt herb crust. (you realize this fish is seasonal). I like the risotto (watch the use of saffron; too much of good thing usually isn't). I also like the dish served with grilled vegetables (try for a more interesting mix), but I find the shrimp superfluous and distracting. If you can get a roasted vegetable reduction that is tasty (beware, it can bitter up easily) so much the better.

tournedo rossini:

pan seared served over a crouton and foie gras w/sauce mederia and granished w/white truffle shavings.

This sounds like your signature dish Remember that good white truffles are a very VERY seasonal ingredient and last years price was ridiculous. The price tends to be prohibitive. If you do go with them (truffles) remember that the use of white truffles will demand the use of impeccable ingredients and preparation techniques throughout this dish as

anything less than perfection will exagerate itself in spades.

mandarin salmon:

marinated in a trio of oranges then char-grilled over an open flame served over a bed of cucumbers and carrots w/blood orange sauce garnished with micro-greens.

Such a nice technique and concept regarding the salmon, blood orange, and greens calls for something less ubiquitous than carrots and cucumber (green papaya, chayote, heirloom tomatoes etc).

broiled rack of lamb:

cardamon crusted and served w/celric puree and hircot verts

.veal t-bone:

marinated and grilled w/provencal roasted tom.

roasted saddle of rabbit

served w/root veg.

baked blue fish:

with parsley and tom and roasted red bliss pot.

hailbut:

sauteed w/citrus burre blanc garnished w/julienne veg

These dishes all seem to be works in progress. I get the feeling that you are still fleshing out ingredients that you may like to work with. My comment is that these dishes do seem to be mixing the seasons a bit much.

I think you may want to think as hard about these dishes as you did about some of the others. Concentrate on specific seasonality of ingredients throughout all of your dishes. Flesh these out a bit more before you commit to putting them on your menu.

Overall not a bad attempt. I think it still needs much work, but you knew that

Nick

[=Mark]

So where would this restaurant be? I've heard varying ideas as to what "Central NJ" comprises...

[Rosie]

I assume AP means Asbury Park. You may want to talk to the owners of Moonstruck and see if

they can give you some helpful advice. Also, get rid of the frog's legs. Rabbit may sell on a Sat. night but

not during the week. Potato crusted anything has been overdone. Now let's talk about the desserts!

[tommy]

Potato crusted anything has been overdone.

daniel doesn't think so!

[Ron Johnson]

Keep the froglegs. Forget the chicken.

If it were not for people like you, every menu would look the same.

Best of luck to you.

[Andy Lynes]

Bunny, this is really interesting and fun. I will give the menu somne consideration and post something later today. At a first glance though the menu did seem to have a bit too much going on and was quite eclectic, which can be a good thing if handled really, really well.

[Andy Lynes]

Bunny, my comments on your menu are in italics. Please bear in mind this is purely from a consumers point of view, just one persons opinion and to be accepted or dismissed

as you see fit :

duo of duck:

asian marinated duck with scallions, ginger, red pepper and calintro layered over pototoe gurfets with an orange glaze.

bbq spiced duck served over a grilled marscapone polenta cake with a sweet corn sauce.

This dish would work as one or the other but not both. Also replace gufrettes with potato tuiles, lose the orange glaze and just serve the duck

with the veg and the marinating liquid made into a sauce.

frog legs nantucket:

frog legs sauteed with shallots,garlic and shittake mushrooms served w/ a brandy demi and granished oven roasted plum tom.

Just the legs with the shallots, garlic and mushrooms and maybe some white wine would be great

grilled calamari:

served w/a wasabi watercress sauce and garnished w/grilled cherry tom.

Just the calamari and sauce would work well. Maybe on a salad of some sort.

grilled apple and raspberry salad w/walnuts and mixed greens

I would not order this, it does not appeal to me .

salad of artcokes cucumber and tom.

I am not sure about the combination of artichokes and cucumber. How about stuffing the artichoke heart with a tomato and fava bean salsa and

serving a barigoule viniagrette with it?

entree

herb crusted black bass:

panseared served over saffron rissito w/grilled yellow squash and zuccini with a roasted veg demi-glace garnished w/3 shrimp

Lose the squash, zuccini and shrimp. Wild mushrooms instead?

mandarin salmon:

marinated in a trio of oranges then char-grilled over an open flame served over a bed of cucumbers and carrots w/blood orange

sauce garnished with micro-greens.

I would substitute the cucumber and carrot for something else, perhaps a shaved fennel and microgreen salad. I would omit the marination and

serve with sauce maltaise (is this what you mean by blood orange sauce?)

broiled rack of lamb:

cardamon crusted and served w/celric puree and hircot verts

I am not a fan of cardamon. Cumin goes really well with lamb.

veal t-bone:

marinated and grilled w/provencal roasted tom.

I wouldn't want to eat tomatos with my veal. Maybe just a potato gratin and some greens of some sort with a veal and maderia jus.

roasted saddle of rabbit

served w/root veg.

Sounds nice, how would you sauce the dish and what roots would you use.

Hailbut:

sauteed w/citrus beurre blanc garnished w/julienne veg.

If you are serving orange with the salmon, you may need to re think this. How about a clam ragu made with a classic beurre blanc, the veg and

loads of soft herbs.

[tommy]

this is beginning to seem like an exercise, not much unlike something assigned in college.

[Andy Lynes]

.....but in fact its restaurant consultation by virtual committee, for free. Only eGullet can do this.

[Suzanne F]

Just found a printout of this thread in the tower of papers on my desk. So, Bunny, how far have you gotten? How much of our advice did you take?

And whatever happened with this situation?