Stupidest regulation or law

[stevea]

Are there regulations relating to food and drink that drive you up the wall? Here's one I ran into.

The other day, my wife put together a package of books and recipes and asked me to send it to her brother in Florida. When I went to the post office to mail it, they told me they couldn't take my package. Why? Because the packaging was a wine box. "We won't accept alcohol or take anything in an alcohol container." But, I protested, there's no wine in the box. Lift it and shake it if you like. "It doesn't matter, you'll have to cover up the box with paper first."

I said I had never heard of anything like this before. They said it was an old regulation that they hadn't been enforcing. But they started again after 9/11. So terrorists send wine to each other, I asked? They just apologized and repeated the regulation.

OK, I said. But I think it's a really stupid rule. I know you don't accept alcohol, but if I were going to sneak some by the USPS, the last thing I would do would be to pack it in a wine or beer box.

Here's the postcript to the story. I took the package down the street to a mailboxes place to send it via UPS. But I told the clerk about my post office experience, in case it made a difference with UPS too. "What, they didn't cover it up for you?" she said. Then she whipped out a few large white adhesive stickers and quickly covered up the "offending" language. Apparently, SHE wanted my business.

[menton1]

Yep, and UPS is usually no more expensive than the Post Office, and they are MUCH more efficient, and you can track everything!! Don't know why anyone uses the PO for package shipments...

[Ducky]

Utah gets my vote. An entire state where you cannot have wine with your meal? WTF?

[jgm]

A long time ago, on a planet far, far away, I was a reporter in a small community. The local city council was in a quandry; every year, beer licenses for several gas stations in town came up for renewal. Every city council member had a problem with that; they really didn't want to do what to them, enabled drinking and driving. And their legal department had told them they could be sued if they didn't renew the licenses, since state law allowed gas stations (as well as other businesses) to sell beer, but didn't give any decision-making authority to counties or municipalities.

So they had a formula worked out whereby they took many, many votes on each license; some members abstained for some votes. Every year, the entire license-granting process took several hours --all in a public council meeting that would then run until well after midnight. In the end, the measures would all pass, but the whole thing was choreographed so that each council member had voted against each renewal more times than they had voted for it. Don't ask me how they did it; they had it worked out somehow. And somehow that allowed them to have clear consciences.

So when I was talking with the City Manager one day, I asked him why they simply didn't make the gas stations sell only unrefrigerated beer. That's what some other states have done over the years. He thought that was the most ridiculous thing he'd ever heard. I said yeah, maybe, but at least they didn't have to go through multiple votes for every license, the way the local council did.

Of course, simple logic would reveal that it doesn't matter where you buy beer; if you're going to drink and drive, you're going to drink and drive, and if you're not, you're not. Licenses for other kinds stores that sold beer were routinely granted with one vote. Ridiculous, it seems, is in the eye of the beholder.

[Megan Blocker]

In my opinion, the fact that you can be drafted, drive and vote before you can legally drink is one of the stupider things about the U.S.

I mean, come on! If you can't be trusted to make good decisions about alcohol, can you really be trusted to operate a multi-ton vehicle, carry a gun, or make decisions that affect millions of others?

I do not think so, though I'm sure many disagree with me.

On a slightly less strident note, I think wine doggie bags are fabulous, and hope that they become legally widespread sooner rather than later. Don't understand why these would ever be considered verboten, as I would think they would significantly decrease the risk of drunk driving (no pressure to chug that last glass when you can just take it with you and quaff it at home).

Edited February 3, 2006 by Megan Blocker (log)

[moosnsqrl]

I live in one state and work in another, and every holiday season the gendarmes are shown on the local news, lurking in liquor store parking lots trying to catch people buying liquor and transporting it across the state line. I suppose there are some people who spend the time and energy plotting what is cheaper on what side (the tax laws are labyrinthine - different on "hard liquor" versus beer of some % alcohol content...it goes on and on) but for the most part I think people buy what they need when they're near somewhere that has it. I swear, if I am EVER stopped for such a thing, especially considering that both states don't mind collecting income tax from me, I am probably going to end up incarcerated for my reaction!

Then there's the wine shipping situation.

And the "blue laws."

And on the Kansas side the restos can let you bring wine and charge corkage - or not - at their whim, but on the Misery side they can be shut-down for doing so.

Second only to Indiana's two time zones (which I think they finally did away with?) we may have the corner on the "stupid" market.

[acautrell]

I live in a community that was completely "dry" until 2000. Now we have liquor by the drink, but all establishments selling liquor must have a 70/30 profit split in favor of food.

I think it's silly, cause it seems to encourage people to overcharge on food and have really cheap drink specials.

I wish the town would just relax so I wouldn't have to drive 20 minutes each way (and across state lines) for a bottle of wine.

[Megan Blocker]

And the "blue laws."

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Yes, blue laws! How could I forget!

I grew up in Connecticut and went to college in PA, so I'm still amazed by the fact that you can (a) buy wine in grocery stores in some states and (b) buy alcohol on SUNDAYS!!!!

Thank goodness, New York passed a law recently allowing the sale of alcohol on Sundays - liquor stores have to close one day a week, but it can be any day they choose.

Hallelujah!

Edited February 3, 2006 by Megan Blocker (log)

[annecros]

Mini bottle laws in South Carolina.

"Ugly Ripe" tomatoes cannot be shipped out of Florida during the winter months, because they are ugly, and not in conformation with the plastic tomatoes most people associate with Florida.

Citrus must be fumigated before it goes to Europe.

I would like to bring some cheese back from there, as well.

[foodie52]

Ahhhh......alcohol laws.....

In Texas, the TABC (Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission) was instated during Prohibition. We are still living under those laws. Wineries can't ship their wines out of state. Hell: wineries weren't allowed to ship, period, until just a few months ago.

At least, I think so, because the laws are so complicated that nobody really understands them.

Stores can't sell alcohol before noon on Sunday. And if you want to hold a public event serving wine, pu-LEEZE; they make it as hard as possible.

If you want to sell wine AND do tastings on the premises, you can't sell anything more fortified than sherry. No port. At least, that's how I understand the law.

Hope nobody from the TABC is reading this: they might jerk my Alcohol Seller's license and I won't be able to pour wine any more at work. Oh: and I am required to take that boring 8 hours of training just for the license, every 2 years. Costs $50.

[moosnsqrl]

Mini bottle laws in South Carolina.

I forgot about those...I can't believe it from an evironmental perspective, never mind the convenience factor. They may have a slight edge over us.

[jgarner53]

The pasteurization/aging requirements for imported cheese come to mind. So what might otherwise be a heavenly cheese in France gets pasteurized if they want to make it for export to the US.

Thank goodness I live in the great state of California where not only can I buy liquor 7 days a week, but I can buy beer, wine, or hard liquor all in my local grocery store without having to make a separate stop at a state-run liquor store.

I have heard (not that I've <ahem> tried this) that if you are shipping wine or beer to someone, telling the P.O. that it's olive oil is a good ploy. Fragile, yes, illegal, no. But why it's illegal for my homebrewing husband to openly ship a six-pack of his holiday beers to his brother in MD is beyond me.

[racheld]

A couple of months before our wedding, my Mom had an all-day meeting in Memphis. Daddy always did all the Memphis driving, so he drove them, then made a quick trip over the bridge to West Memphis to pick up several cases of champagne for us (taxes or prices, etc...I forget what).

He found a store, went in and bought the champagne, loaded the cases into the trunk, and started back for the meeting center.

I also can't remember if an Arkansas or a Tennessee policeman stopped him, but he was pulled over, made to open the trunk, and was soundly lectured about evading tax or licensing or some such. He explained that it was not for resale, but for a wedding, but got no bending until he mentioned someone the trooper knew. After that it was all Good Ole Boys just passing the time of day.

I think our wedding guests drank five cases...I'm glad they didn't make him pour it out.

[Mayhaw Man]

The various beer labeling laws come to mind. Using Texas as an example, I find it ludicrous when something like Old Foghorn or Samiclaus has to be labeled "Malt Liquor" as it is over a certain percentage ABV. It is one of the reasons that there are many brands you can't find in your local liquor stores. It's just not worth printing new labels for small markets, or buying new machinery to fix some local law issue. One of the few things, federally, that I would be in favor of is some kind of national labeleing standards for brewers and wineries. It would save a ton of headaches for regulators and tons of money for the producers.

[Behemoth]

In my opinion, the fact that you can be drafted, drive and vote before you can legally drink is one of the stupider things about the U.S.

I mean, come on!  If you can't be trusted to make good decisions about alcohol, can you really be trusted to operate a multi-ton vehicle, carry a gun, or make decisions that affect millions of others? 

I agree completely. Also, I think it drives drinking on college campuses into frat houses and private parties, which means there is less adult supervision, and a higher incidence of fatal alcohol poisoning and date rape.

[bjones9942]

Washington state used to have the 70/30 rule for food/alcohol - I can remember cooking the books to make it work when filling out the reports to the state It's still illegal for liquor distributors to give trinkets away to their customers. I've always been told this is due to our liquor control board accepting bribes back in the 1950/1960's.

Idaho - now that's a strange one. I believe alcohol is governed by each county, as when I was in Twin Falls we could not serve anything over 19% alcohol on Sundays, Holidays or Election days. Not only could we not serve it, the bottles could not even be visible to the patrons! One horrible week we experienced Sunday, a holiday on Monday and elections on Tuesday. A short trip across the bridge and anything went.

When I attended college (briefly) in Decatur, IL we could drink beer & wine at 19. Down the road a ways the limit was 19 for hard alcohol too. Most of us drove.

[Grub]

(Oaky, it's long. But I swear, it's good).

There are a lot of weird laws & regulations in the Nordic countries, re. alcohol... In Finland (also, possibly Sweden) you can't buy regular beer in the supermarket -- only in specially designed, government-run stores (if I remember correctly, I think the Finish ones are oddly appropriately named "Alco." Heh, and they also have a bank that is somehow related to the governmental postal service, named something like "Posti Panki" which makes me wish I was a Finish tabloid editor so I could cover a sexually ralated scandal at the bank and use "Posti Panki Hanki Panki!" as a headline). Uh. Yeah, so the supermarket only sells this low-alcohol beer. Very evil.

Now, Norway had a similar deal going, except it depends on what county you're in... I think all supermarkets would sell full-octane beer, but most wouldn't sell high alcohol beer -- that is, you had to get at the Alco type store. In the capital, a grocery store sold high-alcohol beer, but it was kept behind the counter, and you'd have to ask the clerk for it...

It gets weirder: in other areas, this idea was applied to regular beer as well (I think the general idea was to shame people into not buying beer). Not only did you have to ask a clerk for the beer, you weren't allowed to touch the beer until you had paid for it -- an employee would have to fetch it from the back, and then carry it to the checkout for you... One area, this was even taken to the extreme that beer had to be ordered ahead, so it wouldn't be an impulse purchase -- BUT, you could only order by the case (and yeah, you could buy a bunch of cases -- just not a single beer, or a sixpack). AND, they'd keep a log of these purchaces, for no other reason than to intimidate customers into worrying about it being published, to further shame them...

One island community in the south was dry -- but not just the regular kinda "we don't sell alcohol"-dry -- they even banned zero-alcohol beer... (It's almost needless to say this -- almost -- but of course, this was religiously motivated...) But wait ... There's more! These guys even refused to accept empty beer bottles for the redemption value! This was actually completely illegal -- but hey, that's the way it was.... Now, you gotta keep in mind the fact that redemption value for bottles is HUGE in the Nordic countries (which is a GREAT idea by the way, since it makes everyone recycle -- because not doing so means throwing SERIOUS money out the window). But they didn't just refuse beer bottles -- they refused any bottle that had the same shape and color (brown) as a beer bottle. Even if it was soda, with the label still on it.

Now, forcing people to buy cases, rather than single beers is one level of stupid -- this island's refusal to pay redemption on recycled bottles was an entirely different dimention of stupid...

This island was such a beautiful place, there'd be tons of tourists in the summer -- especially young people who liked to party, and would bring beer. The next day, they'd have to haul all these empties off the island to get their considerable redemption money back... When I say that everyone recycled, that's not entirely accurate -- not everyone does it (this is a wealthy society with cradle-to-grave social security), but that's okay, because kids would collect them instead. For a kid, finding a homeless "nest" somewhere would be like discovering a pot of gold -- there'd be like a couple of weeks' worth of allowance just laying there... But not for the poor wee tykes on this little island... Because the ones who brought the beer would resent this no-refund policy so much that many of them would simply smash the bottles against a rock, to get back at the locals... Of course, this created a vicious circle of retardedness, because the locals' impression of off-islanders as sinful and horrible people was made even worse -- further solidifying their belief that having regulations against sinful things like beer was a good idea... This eventually came to an end, but not until the island finally got an undersea tunnel to the mainland.

Okay, a final funny/stupid thing about Norwegian booze laws... We've all heard about the French uh, "conundrum" or whatever they call it -- the fact that the French drink such a great deal of wine, but still remain very healthy, right? Well, the gubment figured they'd steer people away from beer and hard liquor (and moonshine -- yeah, you heard right. This country has just about the highest living standard in the world; heads and shoulders above the US -- hard booze is so expensive that everyone either runs their own (very illegal) still, or knows someone who does, like some bunch of dirt poor hillbillies) -- so they made wine extremely affordable...

But the inherent drinking pattern in the country is one of binging, due to the cost -- alcohol is only for special occasions, dig? Take a stroll around cental Oslo on a Sunday morning, and there's blood, puke and urine stains freakin' everywhere...

So for an ordinary weekday, having an entire bottle of wine with dinner was considered too much, and thus the wine thing never really took off -- that is, until cardboard boxed wine arrived. This allowed people to have a single glass or two, and feel cultivated and French like -- without being left with half a bottle of stale wine. So this attempt at transforming the Scandihoovians into chic baguette-wielders made everyone drink wine out of freaking cardboard boxes. Sweet.

Okay, one more thing... You couldn't order a double. Double Scotch, double Gin and Tonic? Nope. HOWEVER, you COULD order a G & T and (wink wink, nudge nudge) also a single shot of gin for your "friend." And then you could pour the single shot of gin into your G&T -- right in front of the bartender. A customer pouring one drink into another wasn't illegal. Ordering two drinks at the same time, was. (I mean, I was once chasticed for ordering a drink, when I hadn't finished the one I was working on. It was like Pink Floyd's The Wall: "How can you have any pudding, if you haven't finished your meat!?" I assume, if you were caught by doing this by the booze-Gestapo, you were expected to insist that you really did order the single shot for a friend, but he's in the bathroom, or ran away, or got abducted by space aliens.

Skål! (Cheers in Scandihoovian).

Actually, the world's best toasts are Finish. "Kippis" is the one you get straight off the dictionary. "Hullekun Kullekun" doesn't mean anything at all, but it sounds fantastic, and rolls off your tongue just like that -- you're freezing your balls off in Helsinki, the railway station next to the hotel has destinations going to Stalingrad, and there's an entire floor unofficially reserved for Russians, because they smoke crazy, vile, Russian commie cigarettes that stinks everything up so bad they're not wanted on the normal floors and you've just been in a goddamn business meeting in a freakin' sauna, drinking vodka while trying to negotiate a contract -- there ain't nuthen that rolls off yer tongue more naturally than hullekun kullekun.

But the Finns have Sisu. They can top anything -- even hullekun kullekun...

This is the singlemost, best damn toast in the world: Perset Ollale. I'm spelling it wrong, but it means something like "Ass on Shoulder." You gotta respect that: I'm not just merely gonna git drunk and make a fool of myself, or get in a fight, or even go on some kinda berseked rape & pillage, modern day viking raid, oh no! I'm going to get so completely and utterly fucked up beyond any sense and reason, that my buttocks will figuratively speaking be placed in the vicinity of my shoulders.

Verily, I say onto thee: the worst blunder isn't getting involved in a land war in Asia. Nor is it going in against a Sicilian when death is on the line. The singlemost biggest blunder you could ever commit -- the one single thing you must all tell your brave sons to never do, is this: Don't ever, ever, EVER try to drink a Fin under the table.

[Brad Ballinger]

There are so many stupid alcohol laws in the United States that still hearken back to our Puritan days, Prohibition, and the repeal of Prohibition. Some are state-enforced. Some are county-enforced. Some are municipality-enforced.

In Minnesota, one cannot purchase wine over the interent. Wine can be purchased over the phone, or via fax machine, but not online. So for those who use a phone line to connect to the web, wine can be ordered over that same line as long as the line is being used for something other than the internet.

In St. Paul, if one is to open up a store selling wine, beer, or spirits, the city will mail out post cards to all residents within 300 yards informing them that an off-sale liquor store might be opening. The post card informs citizens that they can file a complaint if they don't want the store. If one citizen files a complaint, a hearing is scheduled.

Also, Minnesota used to have a quirky law on the books (that has since been removed) whereby an off-sale store could not be located within 600 feet of the University of Minnesota's St. Paul campus (no other campuses, just the St. Paul one).

Finally, the owner of an off-sale establishment in Minnesota can sell foodstuffs (cheese, gorumet-ish type fare, etc.) as long as there is a separate entrance to the food section, and food and alcohol purchases must be made separately in their own space.

Some states, counties, or municiplaities do not allow restaurant patrons to bring their own wine. Some don't allow customers to take an unfinished bottle of wine home.

[snowangel]

Brad, you forgot about 3.2 beer, which is what can be sold in gas stations and stuff, but only during the hours that liquor stores are open. I wonder if there are any still 3.2 bars around? There was one in Northfield.

[Alex]

In my opinion, the fact that you can be drafted, drive and vote before you can legally drink is one of the stupider things about the U.S.

I mean, come on!  If you can't be trusted to make good decisions about alcohol, can you really be trusted to operate a multi-ton vehicle, carry a gun, or make decisions that affect millions of others? 

I agree completely. Also, I think it drives drinking on college campuses into frat houses and private parties, which means there is less adult supervision, and a higher incidence of fatal alcohol poisoning and date rape.

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You expect consistent and reasoned decision-making from all 50 state legislatures AND the federal government? Have you been hitting the absinthe again?

This particular subject probably could use its own thread. Maybe there's one already -- I can't keep up.

Drinking, driving, serving in the military, signing a contract, etc., if perhaps not quite apples and oranges, is at least apples and pears, in that they require different optimal levels of cognitive skills. However, the frontal lobes of the brain, which include sections regulating attention, judgement, planning, etc., are not fully mature until the early-to-mid-20s, on the average. Add that to a puritanical U.S. culture that for a significant part (especially so for those under 21) paradoxically sees drinking as something one does to get altered, getting drunk as a rite of passage, and the "greater good" as just a nice idea, well....

Me, I'd like to see the drinking age lowered and the driving age raised, but that would entail a major change in our culture's attitude toward alcohol, and I don't see that happening any time soon.

Edited February 5, 2006 by Alex (log)

[Alex]

I'll probably catch some flak for this, but my vote is for Michigan's (and other states') law that restaurant menus must state something like "Consuming undercooked meats (eggs, seafood, etc.) may increase your risk of foodborne illness, especially if you have certain medical conditions." Which medical conditions? Osteoporosis? Bursitis? Hypoglycemia?

People have been eating "undercooked" food since forever; this warning is just another example of the U.S.'s pervasive culture of fear.

[ed davis]

In Arizona, you can bring wine (or beer even) to an eating establishment that has no liquor license as long as the establishment lets you. So we often seek out new places without licenses or hole in the walls (or taco trucks) as party places. I even have stemware that I keep in its original cardboard packaging to facilitate swooping down on some of my favorite spots with wine. And in fact, my friends and I have had several feasts at my favorite local hole-in-the-wall Cantonese eatery.

However, once a restaurant gets a liquor license, it is against the law to bring in your own beer or wine. Thus, there are some places that we used to patronize because even if the food wasn't great we could make up for it with decent wine. But now those same places are serving some lousy wine, so we no longer feel a reason to go there.

Anyway, though we have figured out how to make the law work for us, it is still pretty damn stupid.

[choux]

I'm surprised no one has brought up Canada yet, at least British Columbia. Alcohol is only sold in government-run stores and it is only very recently that they have been open on Sundays, and only for the past couple of years have they accepted anything other than cash. No charging up beer on the Visa! There are beer-and-wine stores around, but they charge more for the cold beer. There are also some crazy restaurant rules, like you have to eat a certain amount of food to be able to order drinks, but I'm not that familiar with it.

The rules are different in other provinces. i remember being in Quebec and trying to find a certain beer to bring back to a friend. Checking 3 different SAQ's with no luck, it never occured to us to check the grocery store!

[Beanie]

Utah gets my vote. An entire state where you cannot have wine with your meal? WTF?

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Not true. The regulations are strange, but I've never had a problem getting wine in a restaurant in Utah. Licensing regulations here.

[fifi]

I thought Texas laws were bizarre. I am beginning to feel better about the whole thing. Still confused, yes. But better because we aren't any weirder than other places.

Having spent a good bit of time in New Orleans and surrounding areas it is always culture shock to move from the land of drive-through daquiri shops, open drinking in the streets, and all kinds of alcohol in grocery stores at all times (from what I remember) to the bizarre land that is Texas. You would appreciate my surprise many years ago when the Schwegmann's grocery carts had a cup holder for the highball you could order to enjoy while you were shopping.