Morimoto in Phila vs NYC

CherieV · January 30, 2006

Wow, I'm exhausted from reading the Morimoto/Buddakahn tread in the NY forum. I expected the skepticism from our fellow NYC diners but jeeze......They haven't even tried out the places yet. It's like because it comes from Phila is can't possibly compare. :huh:

I have eaten at Morimoto many times and have really enjoyed many of the Omakase menus. His sushi is top notch as expected. I had 3 different levels of toro tuna sashimi on my last visit that were to die for.

Buddakahn, it is a little boring for me to be honest. Pan Asian food just doesn't impress me. My opinion of course. Food is fine though in terms of preparation and presentation.

My company does a fair amount of buisness with the Starr group so I have the opportunity to revisit their restaurants often.

I will be in NYC with my counterpart next month and will be dining at Morimoto. Hopefully Buddakahn will be open as well. I am very curious to check them out and I will be sure to give you all a full unbiased report. :wink:

Vadouvan · January 30, 2006

The skepticism in NY isnt based on the fact that it comes from Philly. The Ny food elite is just skeptical period. Alain Ducasse got the same warm welcome and he was coming from Paris and Monte Carlo, Although the skeptism in NY is slightly harsh based on the fact that most of the people havent actually tried it, it is definitely clear that the food based on Volume will *definitely* not be as good as the top end New York sushi and Omakase you get at places like Yasuda and Karumazushi.

It isnt an attack on Starr per se, remember even the Nobu's arent as good as Yasuda/Karumazushi.

All that is besides the point, any 200 seat restaurant in the meat packing district isnt going to get all the attention to detail it wants, its about making $$$$$.

And that it will.

circa · January 30, 2006

I hope it is better in NYC. I just drove down there and was not blown away. I think NOBU is a lot better.

shacke · January 30, 2006

I hope it is better in NYC. I just drove down there and was not blown away. I think NOBU is a lot better.
←

Interesting reading the NYC thread. There will always be the NY-Philly in the shadow thing but I like it that way. I consider Philly a well kept secret and NY is the apex of the world (I lived in both for many years)

Comparisons of the Starr places will be done. When the dust fails, I predict (and don't wager any bets on my predictions) that Morimoto will sizzle and NY buddakan will fizzle.

Curious to see how it plays out.

Evan

EDIT: Article today in NY times

Edited January 30, 2006 by shacke (log)

Rich Pawlak · January 30, 2006

Why do we CARE what some New Yorkers think?

Do we need their approval? Validation?

Cmon, we're better than that.

robert40 · January 30, 2006

Even though some may not call Django a destination restaurant, I once drove from upstate NY just to dine there. Which was a 100 times better then Babbo.

And we all know how much New Yorkers love Babbo. :laugh:

Vadouvan · January 30, 2006

Yawn!

Just like the new york thread, this one is going to get very silly and pointless quickly.

A Philadelphian says something in disfavor of NYC, a NYer says something in disfavor of Philly.

Who wins ?

Nobody.

Both cities have thier merits for dining.

More Variety in NY, enough choices in Philly, lots of BYO's.

Django was a good restaurant, It isnt by any means quantifiably 100times better than Babbo.

They have an excellent wine list, way better pasta dishes than django, better atmosphere and quite frankly its a different kind of restaurant.....Just like both cities are !

The comparison is absurd.

Promoting Philly by defending Django by Trashing Mario Batali's original Flagship restaurant is a no win argument.....as is the whole thread.

Edited January 30, 2006 by Vadouvan (log)

robert40 · January 30, 2006

Yawn!
Just like the new york thread, this one is going to get very silly and pointless quickly.
A Philadelphian says something in disfavor of NYC, a NYer says something in disfavor of Philly.
Who wins ?
Nobody.
Both cities have thier merits for dining.
More Variety in NY, enough choices in Philly, lots of BYO's.
Django was a good restaurant, It isnt by any means quantifiably 100times better than Babbo.
They have an excellent wine list, way better pasta dishes than django, better atmosphere and quite frankly its a different kind of restaurant.....Just like both cities are !
The comparison is absurd.
Promoting Philly by defending Django by Trashing Mario Batali's original Flagship restaurant is a no win argument.....as is the whole thread.
←

Please don't take my post so literary as it was closer to mid-afternoon nothing to do at the moment sap rap.

Yes 100 times was a exaggeration and they are not comparable by any means in style, food or goals. Just trying to give a pat on the back to our Philly friends. :biggrin:

Honestly though.. My meal at Babbo truly was poor.

Vadouvan · January 30, 2006

Which brings up the point that singular experiences are different for everyone.

Some get lucky, some dont.

I dont think any restaurant is on its game 24/7.

On the list of top 15 things I have ever eaten in a restaurant ....period!

Oxtail ravioli with squab liver sauce and a glass off Amarone.

BabboNYC.

Philly could use a Babbo.

the scary thing is "Babbo" is less likely to work in Philly than Buddakan in NY. :sad:

herbacidal · January 30, 2006

Yawn!
Just like the new york thread, this one is going to get very silly and pointless quickly.
A Philadelphian says something in disfavor of NYC, a NYer says something in disfavor of Philly.
Who wins ?
Nobody.
Both cities have thier merits for dining.
More Variety in NY, enough choices in Philly, lots of BYO's.
Django was a good restaurant, It isnt by any means quantifiably 100times better than Babbo.
They have an excellent wine list, way better pasta dishes than django, better atmosphere and quite frankly its a different kind of restaurant.....Just like both cities are !
The comparison is absurd.
Promoting Philly by defending Django by Trashing Mario Batali's original Flagship restaurant is a no win argument.....as is the whole thread.
←

I concur.

herbacidal · January 30, 2006

Philly could use a Babbo.
the scary thing is "Babbo" is less likely to work in Philly than Buddakan in NY.
←

How so? I'm intrigued by the idea.

cdh · January 30, 2006

While I've been to neither, Vetri and Babbo have always sounded similar in conception and execution. How wrong am i?

Vadouvan · January 30, 2006

Before folks start hurling daggers, hear me out.

Philadelphia has a huge influx of Italian restaurants however, they are all basically exactly the same, same food, same variations.

"tastes" in what is considered Italian also tend to be more conservative...Translation "Italian American"

Batali's non red sauce more rustic cooking is completely different and I just dont see a ton of folks getting into it.

Dont get me wrong, I am not saying philadelphians dont get it, in fact they do.....what's needed is one brave restauranteur who gets it and nails it.

ANGELINA was an attempt at that but the food was just subpar and too fancy.

That's one of the more important stratas of Italian food missing in Philly

Mid priced banging authentic dishes without grilled calamari, arugula salad with goat cheese and seafood pasta specials.

Almost like a panorama but better food.............

New York however.........Would I spend 10 million to put a Buddakan in the meat packing district ?

Hell Yeah......its like printing money.

Remember, just like the people in south jersey keep olde city in business, the people in NORTH jersey do the same for lower manhattan on weekends and all summer.

Trust me food isnt always the primary reasons people go to these places.

Everytime I stand around in one of those places like spice market and i have 3 drinks, its like 35 bucks already........that's wassup.

Starr is no fool.

Sneakeater · January 30, 2006

Trust me food isnt always the primary reasons people go to these places.
←

As a New Yorker, I don't want to invade this thread. But this is EXACTLY what everybody you thought were "knocking" Morimoto and Buddakhan (sp?) in the NYC thread were saying. Why would anyone on a board like this care about a restaurant, even if it's successful, if food isn't the reason people are going to it? I wish the operators luck in their ventures, but what's it to us? They can care about it on the fashion boards, or the nightlife boards, or the gossip boards.

(I mean, probably the owner of the Olive Garden franchise in Times Square also received a license to print money. But I don't see too many people talking about it on EG.)

Edited January 30, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

inventolux · January 30, 2006

Before folks start hurling daggers, hear me out.
Philadelphia has a huge influx of Italian restaurants however, they are all basically exactly the same, same food, same variations.
"tastes" in what is considered Italian also tend to be more conservative...Translation "Italian American"
Batali's non red sauce more rustic cooking is completely different and I just dont see a ton of folks getting into it.
Dont get me wrong, I am not saying philadelphians dont get it, in fact they do.....what's needed is one brave restauranteur who gets it and nails it.
ANGELINA was an attempt at that but the food was just subpar and too fancy.
That's one of the more important stratas of Italian food missing in Philly
Mid priced banging authentic dishes without grilled calamari, arugula salad with goat cheese and seafood pasta specials.
Almost like a panorama but better food.............
New York however.........Would I spend 10 million to put a Buddakan in the meat packing district ?
Hell Yeah......its like printing money.
Remember, just like the people in south jersey keep olde city in business, the people in NORTH jersey do the same for lower manhattan on weekends and all summer.
Trust me food isnt always the primary reasons people go to these places.
Everytime I stand around in one of those places like spice market and i have 3 drinks, its like 35 bucks already........that's wassup.
Starr is no fool.
←

I refuse to believe any 2 restaurants are exactly alike. Unless cloning were legal but even then nano-building construction is light years away.

docsconz · January 30, 2006

Before folks start hurling daggers, hear me out.
Philadelphia has a huge influx of Italian restaurants however, they are all basically exactly the same, same food, same variations.
"tastes" in what is considered Italian also tend to be more conservative...Translation "Italian American"
Batali's non red sauce more rustic cooking is completely different and I just dont see a ton of folks getting into it.
Dont get me wrong, I am not saying philadelphians dont get it, in fact they do.....what's needed is one brave restauranteur who gets it and nails it.
ANGELINA was an attempt at that but the food was just subpar and too fancy.
That's one of the more important stratas of Italian food missing in Philly
Mid priced banging authentic dishes without grilled calamari, arugula salad with goat cheese and seafood pasta specials.
Almost like a panorama but better food.............
New York however.........Would I spend 10 million to put a Buddakan in the meat packing district ?
Hell Yeah......its like printing money.
Remember, just like the people in south jersey keep olde city in business, the people in NORTH jersey do the same for lower manhattan on weekends and all summer.
Trust me food isnt always the primary reasons people go to these places.
Everytime I stand around in one of those places like spice market and i have 3 drinks, its like 35 bucks already........that's wassup.
Starr is no fool.
←
I refuse to believe any 2 restaurants are exactly alike. Unless cloning were legal but even then nano-building construction is light years away.
←

Exactly alike? No, the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle for Restaurants would preclude that, but substantially alike would probably fit. :raz: :laugh:

herbacidal · January 30, 2006

Before folks start hurling daggers, hear me out.
Philadelphia has a huge influx of Italian restaurants however, they are all basically exactly the same, same food, same variations.
"tastes" in what is considered Italian also tend to be more conservative...Translation "Italian American"
Batali's non red sauce more rustic cooking is completely different and I just dont see a ton of folks getting into it.
Dont get me wrong, I am not saying philadelphians dont get it, in fact they do.....what's needed is one brave restauranteur who gets it and nails it.
ANGELINA was an attempt at that but the food was just subpar and too fancy.
That's one of the more important stratas of Italian food missing in Philly
Mid priced banging authentic dishes without grilled calamari, arugula salad with goat cheese and seafood pasta specials.
Almost like a panorama but better food.............

So you're saying that there is no restauranteur in Philly capable of producing quality Italian food that would not be considered Italian American?

Is that correct?

Trust me food isnt always the primary reasons people go to these places.
Everytime I stand around in one of those places like spice market and i have 3 drinks, its like 35 bucks already........that's wassup.
Starr is no fool.
←

No one's disagreeing with that. Bridge and tunnel crowd and its effect on bars and restaurants is more about the personality and attitude than geographic home base, but to date they seem to go hand in hand, in general.

R Washburn · January 30, 2006

Honestly though.. My meal at Babbo truly was poor.
←

And is Babbo New York's best restaurant? I would put it in the top 50 or so.

While I have never had a bad meal at either Le Bec-Fin or The Fountain, I have certainly had rather poor ones at other "4-bell" restaurants.

CherieV · January 30, 2006

Before folks start hurling daggers, hear me out.
Philadelphia has a huge influx of Italian restaurants however, they are all basically exactly the same, same food, same variations.
"tastes" in what is considered Italian also tend to be more conservative...Translation "Italian American"
Batali's non red sauce more rustic cooking is completely different and I just dont see a ton of folks getting into it.
Dont get me wrong, I am not saying philadelphians dont get it, in fact they do.....what's needed is one brave restauranteur who gets it and nails it.
ANGELINA was an attempt at that but the food was just subpar and too fancy.
That's one of the more important stratas of Italian food missing in Philly
Mid priced banging authentic dishes without grilled calamari, arugula salad with goat cheese and seafood pasta specials.
Almost like a panorama but better food.............
New York however.........Would I spend 10 million to put a Buddakan in the meat packing district ?
Hell Yeah......its like printing money.
Remember, just like the people in south jersey keep olde city in business, the people in NORTH jersey do the same for lower manhattan on weekends and all summer.
Trust me food isnt always the primary reasons people go to these places.
Everytime I stand around in one of those places like spice market and i have 3 drinks, its like 35 bucks already........that's wassup.
Starr is no fool.
←

Philadelphia has plenty of Babbo type Italain restaurants if you know where to look. Sovalo for one -- look up the owners credentials. Vetri! Plenty of others too many to go into it. We have tons of Italian-American restaurants too. Both types do very well depending on preference.

As for what to expect with Buddakahn and Morimoto in NYC. The food will be good and the scene will be hip. The best food in the city in their respective categories, I doubt it but that's not the point. It's about the experience as a whole. Sometimes I want to sit at a small quiet place and eat, sometimes I want to get dressed up and be out. There is room for both. Don't you all agree?

Vadouvan · January 30, 2006

Since I dont know how to do this quoting stuff, here are your replies.

1. SNEAKEREATER.

Your point is taken as far as new yorkers knocking it but my point was having a discussion on the gullet which probably has a very food savvy audience about the merits of 200 seat meatpacking district restaurants is sorta like preacing to the choir.

At some point the bitching was just pointless. One would have a more alert audience explaining the concept of doppler radar at a meteorologists convention.

2. DOCSCONZ. INVENTOLUX

Sup doc ?

Two restaurants that are alike and the food tastes exactly the same ?

Besides Mcdonalds ?

You are correct.

Even French Laudry dishes dont taste as good at Per Se......but hey, its kinda different watching construction in columbus circle as opposed to a sunny day in the garden at Napa.

3.HERBICIDAL.

Yo Herb, I am not saying no one is capable of it, I am saying No one HAS done it.

I was frankly suprised STARR just didnt make a deal with Batali when he opened Angelina ????

I Imagine he would be as good or better draw than Marcus Samuelsson or Portale.

4. CHERIE.

Sovalo is good but it isnt like Babbo, It's distinctly more california Italian in the vein of Oliveto and A-16.

Edited January 30, 2006 by Vadouvan (log)

herbacidal · January 31, 2006

Yo Herb, I am not saying no one is capable of it, I am saying No one HAS done it.
I was frankly suprised STARR just didnt make a deal with Batali when he opened Angelina ????
I Imagine he would be as good or better draw than Marcus Samuelsson or Portale.
←

Just because no one has done it, it does not mean that any such attempt will fail.

In fact, that means that the first attempt that melds together the right management and the right plan has a greater probability of success, because there's no room for more than one such venture in the market.

But I think I see where your emphasis was in the statement about a Babbo-type place having less chance of success in Philly than a Buddakan in NYC.

I assumed it was on one end, you put it on the other.

Bobby 2 Shakes · January 31, 2006

Cherie,

If you're looking for a benchmark to measure Morimoto NY by, try Matt Ito's Fuji, just across the

Betsy Ross and North on 130 on your right. www.fujirestaurant.com

MarketStEl · January 31, 2006

Since I dont know how to do this quoting stuff, here are your replies.
1. SNEAKEREATER.
Your point is taken as far as new yorkers knocking it but my point was having a discussion on the gullet which probably has a very food savvy audience about the merits of 200 seat meatpacking district restaurants is sorta like preacing to the choir.
At some point the bitching was just pointless. One would have a more alert audience explaining the concept of doppler radar at a meteorologists convention.
←

Though I do note that there is a set of forums devoted to beverages on eG, and one of its subforums is devoted to cocktails. I'm sure that some of the people who post there might be interested in the non-food aspects of these places, though maybe not the social angle that looks like it will loom large with these two.

However, can we be that dismissive of the non-food aspects? After all, food is not just about fuel, nourishment and sustenance. It is also in most cases a social lubricant or bond. In most cases, when we dine out, we are not "only here for the food," though we would not be there if the food weren't good.

Vadouvan · January 31, 2006

Say What ? :huh:

philadining · January 31, 2006

Say What ?
←

I think I get it, and I'll agree with Sandy, that there's some intangible thing about amusingly-plated food, plated to share, that can make a night at a Starr restaurant pretty enjoyable, even if the food isn't earth-shakingly awesome. And that's not so different from enjoying a goofy "Mother's Little Helper" cocktail at Jones, it's not a great drink, but it's fun...

The Starr places aren't always my first choice if I'm looking for the absolute best food, but I'll stand by my various claims in various other posts that I've had very good dishes at most of the restaurants. Maybe not everything, maybe not everywhere, but better than hit-or miss.

Maybe I get lucky, maybe I have a knack for ordering the right thing, but I've gotten excellent food at Morimoto. I've had many good things at Pod. The duck with 5-spice jus at Buddakan was amazing. The octopus at Tangerine and at Alma de Cuba, rocked! I had a scallop and sweetbread special at Striped Bass that blew me away. There's lots more, that's just stuff off the top of my head.

But the thing is that I've had really enjoyable meals even when the food was merely good, because I had a really good time overall. I'm confident it was lubricated somewhat by the surroundings and the forced sharing and all that Starr shtick. I would not have enjoyed it if the food sucked, but it wasn't crucial that it was profound. Sometimes it's perfectly sufficient to have something that's only a little creative, in an exciting environment, especially if it's a social occasion as much as a dining event.

We had friends visiting from Holland who just LOVED Jones because it seemed so exotically American to them, and were thrilled to be hearing cheesy 80s new wave on the sound system. We've dragged a lot of people, locals and out-of-towners, to Pod, because it's just so freaking unusual. This would be idiotic if the food sucked, but it never has when I've gone. If someone asked for the best Asian food, we wouldn't go there, but if we're just trying to have a good time, especially with a group, it's just right.

And I think that's one of the secrets that Starr has exploited masterfully: some people will be intimidated by a traditional Japanese restaurant, or a traditional Moroccan place, or whatever, but all his places are easier to navigate if you're not an expert, and have some easy outs for the timid or unadventurous. And that stuff gets sneered at by the foodies, but it's a freaking life saver if you're trying to have a pleasant night with a group. And sometimes that stuff is really good, I have relatives that can't stop talking about the Ramen soup at Morimoto. On the surface it's insane to go to Morimoto for Chicken noodle soup, but hey, if you like it you like it. A wasabi-crusted filet mignon is a pretty safe order, it's also delicious. (Go ahead, mock me if you think I'm too easily pleased. More for me.)

I think these places are actually good entry points for people trying to expand their horizons. I think we should be happy that folks are experiencing Moroccan spices, or ceviche, or sushi, and not just another steak. Not everything at any of those restaurants is going to be great, some of it is going to be intentionally boring, and you'll be really glad of that if your Uncle Bob who won't eat anything has come along for your birthday dinner.

But there are often talented people in those kitchens. Everybody's justifiably raving over Jose Garces at Amada, and you know what, he oversaw some great food at El Vez and Alma de Cuba before he opened his own restaurant. If you choose to disdain those places because they have hipster cocktails, it's your loss...

I'm not saying that any of Starr's restaurants are producing the absolute apex of whatever cuisine they are surveying, but you can have a very good meal at most of them. But no place is right for every circumstance, if all you want is straight-ahead no-nonsense "authentic" cuisine, these are probably not the spots for you.

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