Thai Noodles!

[Austin]

For those of you interested in Thai noodle dishes I have posted a couple new entries at my blog:

First of all khao soi, a northern Thai curry-broth based noodle soup dish is probably my favorite Thai dish of all. I wrote an article about khao soi for a magazine in Bangkok which allowed me to visit a great deal of the khao soi restaurants in Chiang Mai, and to learn about the history of this unique and delicious dish.

And secondly, I'm sure all of you are familiar with phat thai, although you may not be aware of exactly how it's made. I think phat thai is OK, but I think it's really overrated, especially in the US! The few times I've been to Thai restaurants abroad, everybody always orders phat thai, just like they did last time, when they're are so many dishes they haven't tried! In any event, the phat thai illustrated at my blog is a somewhat unique version called phat thai hor khai, "phat thai wrapped in an egg". I tried to capture each step of the process, as making the dish isn't very difficult, but it needs to be done a certain way.

Austin

[CaliPoutine]

Great pics as always.

I love Pad Thai. I made it at home once using CI's recipe and It was just ok. I think I used too fat of a noodle.

Anyway, here is a pic of some pad thai I had recently at Thuan Kieu Viet Nam in London, Ontario. It cost 8.25CAD and it includes squid, shrimp, tofu and chicken. Notice there are no bean sprouts as the entire crop in Ontario was destroyed a few months ago due to salmonella. I enjoy this pad thai, although it is slighty spicy for my low pain tolerance taste buds.

[Austin]

What is CI?

In the very few Thai restaurants I've been to in the US and Europe, I noticed that phat thai is often made with beef or even chicken, as you mentioned. Although this might taste good, it's virtually unheard of in Thailand. Here, the only meat added to phat thai, other than the requisite dried shrimp, would be fresh shrimp or prawns, or sometimes mussels or oysters, as seen on my blog.

Austin

[CaliPoutine]

What is CI?

In the very few Thai restaurants I've been to in the US and Europe, I noticed that phat thai is often made with beef or even chicken, as you mentioned.  Although this might taste good, it's virtually unheard of in Thailand.  Here, the only meat added to phat thai, other than the requisite dried shrimp, would be fresh shrimp or prawns, or sometimes mussels or oysters, as seen on my blog.

Austin

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CI = Cook's Illustrated. There was a pad thai cookoff last year and I believe the recipe from CI is talked about. Check it out here

[Stupid_American]

The only pad thai I have ever liked is from a stall in Big C Wongsawang's foodcourt.

It is very lightly sauced and comes with a marinated tofu (yellow & red 'skin').

Western incarnations have always seem too sweet for me.

[Austin]

Oh, Ok, I'm aware of the cookoff (I posted a similar thread there), but am not familar with Cook's Illustrated, is that a magazine?

Wow, that pic looks like the dictionary definition of a real Thai phat thai! And it reminds me that I forgot to mention the ground peanuts. But I agree, good phat thais, even in Thailand, are few and far between, and the Western one's I've seen often resemble a meaty, sweety mess!

Austin

[Nathan P.]

That Khao Soi looks great. The only version I have tasted is one I made last year so I wonder if you could give me a better sense of the broth. How rich/coconut-creamy and how spicy is it? (I understand there will be a range depending on vendor) Similar or thicker than more common in the US soups that use coconut milk or so rich you can barely finish the last bit in the bowl. Mildly spicy so you can add extra chili or hot on its own- similar to a red curry or?

Thanks

[OnigiriFB]

That Khao Soi looks great.  The only version I have tasted is one I made last year so I wonder if you could give me a better sense of the broth.  How rich/coconut-creamy and how spicy is it?  (I understand there will be a range depending on vendor)  Similar or thicker than more common in the US soups that use coconut milk or so rich you can barely finish the last bit in the bowl.  Mildly spicy so you can add extra chili or hot on its own- similar to a red curry or?

Thanks

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It shouldn't be too creamy and mildy (er to Thais) spicy. I love love love this dish. THe thing that makes it interesting to me is all the textures and different flavors that come through. You HAVE to have it with pickled mustard greens or it's just not right to me. BTW Pim has a recipe for this on her blog. I haven't had a chance to try it out yet but I'm sure it's authentic and tasty.

Austin - great pics and blog as always. Phad Thai version is one I have never seen before. I'm not sure how much I would like it. Then again I like Kai Yut Sai so maybe I will.

[Austin]

That Khao Soi looks great.  The only version I have tasted is one I made last year so I wonder if you could give me a better sense of the broth.  How rich/coconut-creamy and how spicy is it?  (I understand there will be a range depending on vendor)  Similar or thicker than more common in the US soups that use coconut milk or so rich you can barely finish the last bit in the bowl.  Mildly spicy so you can add extra chili or hot on its own- similar to a red curry or?

Thanks

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I'd say that the broth is not quite as thick as a curry, and is more savory than spicy. Personally, I have no problem finishing every drop! (I think I mention in the article at my website that I and my friends can never stop at just one bowl.) One woman I spoke to in Chiang Mai simply used red curry paste and added Indian-style curry powder! This basic combination of ingredients surprised me as her khao soi was very good. When I've made it myself, following the instructions of Thai cookbooks, just making the curry paste alone is a tedious process that involves dry-roasting all of the ingredients before mashing them up in a mortar and pestle! I'll make it sometime soon and describe the process on my blog.

Austin

[piazzola]

If one thing I don't like of pad thai is the the imported thai noodles break off

recently a friend brought me a packet of glass noodles that do justice to pad thai and did not break off like the cheap ones and yes dried shrimp or maldives dried shrimps (stinks I know) are a necessary in this dish.

[trillium]

Kasma Loha-unchit has a recipe for kao soi on her website.

regards,

trillium

[Austin]

Kasma Loha-unchit has a recipe for kao soi on her website.

regards,

trillium

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That looks like a pretty typical recipe, although the choice of dried spices seems somewhat unusual (nutmeg? Thai cardamom? AND curry powder?). However the dry-roasting of the chili paste ingredients is an important step, and gives the dish an intense savory flavor. This is definately a Thai-Buddhist version of the recipe, as it entails frying the curry paste ingredients in thick coconut milk. With the Muslim version of the dish, the curry paste was added to the boiling broth, more as with a soup, and this version tends to be a bit blander, without the recognizeable film of oil floating on top. Muslims also sometimes like to finish it off with a swirl of thick coconut milk at the end, as seen on the second pic on my blog. Personally, I prefer the "Thai" version.

Austin

[Nathan P.]

Thanks for the tips. I think it was Pim's recipe that inspired me to cook this but I reviewed many other sources as well. I am sure I looked at Kasma's since I know that site as well. One thing I did not do was pick up the pickled mustard greens so I will NEED to fix this problem the next time. As a huge lover of both soup noodles (pho, bun rieu, ramen etc..) and curry, this dish is a perfect blend of things I love.

[OnigiriFB]

If you didn't have pickled mustard greens with your Khao Soi then you were missing a major flavor component IMHO. Not only does it help add a new texture to the dish the odd bite of sourness helps cut the creaminess/slight sweetness of this dish. Khao soi works best if you add all the garnishments. Most are served with fresh bean sprouts, sliced pickled mustard greens, fried noodles (I remember chow mein looking stuff), sliced shallots, and limes. Be sure to squeeze the juice from a few lime wedges into your soup. Stir well to combine. Each garnishments adds something interesting and melds into what make Khao Soi so addicting.

Looking at Kosma's recipe it seems a bit off. I've had some luck with her recipes but to me the always seem a bit "not quite like home". When I saw Pim's (which is how I found her blog and got into food blogging) it made more sense to me. I think I'll be trying it out soon since all this talk has given me a BAD craving.

[Austin]

I agree, her recipe does seem a bit "off" somehow, although, of course I haven't made it! And yes, Onigiri is right, you HAVE to have the pickled mustard greens, they are essential. Although I've never seen khao soi served with beansprouts though!

Onigiri, can you post the link to the recipe you mentioned? I'd like to see it.

Sounds like there are a lot of khao soi hungry people out there! Maybe I'll make a point of making it this weekend, following my Thai cookbook (ahaan nuea) recipe, and post the results on my blog.

Austin

[OnigiriFB]

Khun Pim's Khao Soi Recipe

There you go Austin. I absolutely adore ChezPim She's very hi-so. I think her version is more "thai". She makes her own red curry paste (not listed in this recipe) and she would make a good Thai daughter-in-law. I'm not that ambitious so alas I am would not

Erk, no beansprouts? Maybe I'm going senile? Or I'm thinking another dish but I thought there was always beansprouts. Usually cut up into small pieces? Oops!

Edited: to add those pesky words that my mind sees but my hands forget to type.

Edited January 13, 2006 by OnigiriFB (log)

[Austin]

Onigiri: Thanks for the link. That one looks a bit better, although I'm still convinced there's something for roasting the chili paste ingredients beforehand (despite the fact that, according to the owner of the most famous and delicious khao soi shop in Chiang Mai, they simply use plain old red chili paste and curry powder!). Also, my northern Thai recipe book calls for an usual spice called cha ko in Thai. I was able to get it in Chiang Mai (the Indian salesperson told me yes, this is used in khao soi), and it adds a very unique "smoky" flavor to the dish. I also reallyl like the flavor of fresh turmeric, although it stains everything orange!

I'll try to make "my" khao soi on Sunday and post the process, OK?

Austin

[trillium]

If you didn't have pickled mustard greens with your Khao Soi then you were missing a major flavor component IMHO. Not only does it help add a new texture to the dish the odd bite of sourness helps cut the creaminess/slight sweetness of this dish. Khao soi works best if you add all the garnishments. Most are served with fresh bean sprouts, sliced pickled mustard greens, fried noodles (I remember chow mein looking stuff), sliced shallots, and limes. Be sure to squeeze the juice from a few lime wedges into your soup. Stir well to combine. Each garnishments adds something interesting and melds into what make Khao Soi so addicting.

Looking at Kosma's recipe it seems a bit off. I've had some luck with her recipes but to me the always seem a bit "not quite like home". When I saw Pim's (which is how I found her blog and got into food blogging) it made more sense to me. I think I'll be trying it out soon since all this talk has given me a BAD craving.

←

If you read the article that is linked in the recipe you'll see that she discusses the history, and the particulars of the style she likes the best (heavy on the cardamom and fresh tumeric), which is what she provides a recipe for. Given that it is a fusion dish, it's not surprising there will be many different styles, no? I think I remember Pim saying (when she used to participate in eG) that her family's style was more palatial, but I could be misremembering. Kasma is a talented teacher in person and through her books, but she would be the first to encourage someone to make dishes according to their taste. She tries to make the point that there isn't just one right way to do a dish. I found, when I was eating my way through Thailand, that this was very true. "Classic" dishes would change from city to city. I hardly think that preferring another style makes a certain recipe "off" (I guess I'm not sure what that means), just different from what you prefer.

Happy cooking!

regards,

trillium

[Austin]

I think I understand what Onigiri is saying. Although I haven't tried the recipes mentioned above, I have eaten Thai food in the West, and at tourist restaurants in Bangkok, and the food is generally "off". Although dishes can be made in many ways, we often expect them to generally taste a certain way, or to include certain tastes, flavors or ingredients. Imagine, for example, eating "sweet" mashed pototoes, or a pizza served with ketchup. These are essentially the same dishes, but they would really taste "off" to someone accustomed to the real deal. There is no real right or wrong; if you like it then I reckon it's OK, but I think there is a certain ambiguous lattitude; venture outside of this and things begin to taste "off".

I really doubt there is a recognized "palatial" (royal?) recipe for khao soi! It's a semi-obscure regional dish probably introduced by Muslims--not exactly the stuff of "royal" cuisine!

Austin

[Stupid_American]

I really doubt there is a recognized "palatial" (royal?) recipe for khao soi! It's a semi-obscure regional dish probably introduced by Muslims--not exactly the stuff of "royal" cuisine!

Austin

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It's obscure enough that none of my wife's family, 3 generations of Bangkokians, had ever tried it. My wife was the first, on our trip to Chiang Mai.

Not being big curry fans, neither of us much cared for it.

[OnigiriFB]

Trillium I'm not trying to disparage Kosma's cooking but I've tried a few of her recipes and they just didn't taste like what I recall eating all those years in Thailand and growing up.

As in the States some dishes are regional dishes, as in they originated from this or that part of Thailand. Khao Soi is a dish that is famous to the north, phad thai is more of a middle region dish, som tum is more a northeastern dish, and fish curry is a famous southern dish that knocks the socks off most Thai people spicy wise. So when one tries a dish that originated in whichever region there are certain aspects one looks for. Yes, there are deviations but usually these deviations do not subtract from the original but branch off. Example som tum (papaya salad or papaya bokbok I believe it's been called in english). This dish is found everywhere in Thailand. In the NE they like using fermented fish as a seasoning, in the middle they like using salted black crabs (yum!) or water beetles (yuck I hate this one), in Bangkok they use dried shrimp. Each of these different som tums are tasty but for slight differences in flavor the the different add ins stay true to the original dish which should be a good combo of spicy/salty/sour/sweet.

From my experience from Kosma's recipes she has a strange liking for the use of dark soy sauce (this soy sauce is thicker than light (normal) soy sauce and is sweet) in places I don't think work well. Re-reading her recipe for khao soi and it looks like she adds it here too! One recipe that really didn't work for me was her recipe for basil chicken. This is a dish I have eaten all over Thailand, north to south and in quite a few well known Thai restaurants in the US. (I have no idea of the names, my Dad owned two thai restaurants and he had quite a network of other Thai restauranteers everytime we went somewhere we would go to his friend's restaurant for dinner I remember a really popular one in Miami that was awesome but heck if I know the name.) From street cart to high end Thai restaurants it's pretty much the same. Kosma's recipe include dark soy sauce in this dish which changed the taste of the dish from what I normally have eaten. It gave it a better presentation (colorwise) but wasnt' that great IMHO. Tastewise it was more on par with what I have found in Thai restaurants here that cater towards a more american palatte or a touristy Thai restaurant in Bangkok which leans more toward sweeter dishes. While some people may like this version better (and there is nothing wrong with that) I personally do not.

[ Funny tangents: there is a Thai saying about how girls from the north are sweet and those from the south are not so sweet. One of my aunties came from the north and every once in awhile she would let out a "jao" which is northern dialect used similar to "kha" and my family would smile indulgently while sprouting off the "wisdom" about northern Thai girls and how great my uncle was for choosing well. ]

Looking at Pim's recipes and reading through her blog I don't find her recipes to be particularly "royal" in style. She just tends to use good ingredients, makes her own products, and like her style in general include foods found in a higher economical level than what you may see in a Thai restaurant abroad. But for the most part the dishes she cooks are similar to the ones my family ate both in home, on the street, or in a Thai restaurant. Her family seems to be more hi so (thai slang for high society) than mine but we ate the same kinds of dishes.

If you really want "royal" cuisine try Khao Chae. It's rice soaked in ice cold jasmine water with highly flavored tidbits to eat with it. The first time I tried this (my family did it every year for some special annual party) I HATED it. It took me five years to learn to tolerate it but even then I was really glad it was so painstaking to make that they only did it once a year. Wonder if that makes me more low class since I'd take a bowl of noodles from a street stall any day over that?

[Stupid_American]

.....One recipe that really didn't work for me was her recipe for basil chicken. This is a dish I have eaten all over Thailand, north to south and in quite a few well known Thai restaurants in the US.  .....From street cart to high end Thai restaurants it's pretty much the same. Kosma's recipe include dark soy sauce in this dish which changed the taste of the dish from what I normally have eaten. It gave it a better presentation (colorwise) but wasnt' that great IMHO. Tastewise it was more on par with what I have found in Thai restaurants here that cater towards a more american palatte or a touristy Thai restaurant in Bangkok which leans more toward sweeter dishes. While some people may like this version better (and there is nothing wrong with that) I personally do not.

...... I'd take a bowl of noodles from a street stall any day over that? 

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I've had kapow kai from dozens of Bangkok street vendors, including a women a couple doors up our soi. Although many are similar, no two are really the same. From chicken chunks, to minced, from very sweet to blistering hot, everyone has their own variation. The women up the soi makes her's on the sweet side. This might be due to the many school kids in the hood:

IMHO, there are no restaurants that will ever beat a cart, stall or small shop when it comes to great food. Althought there is good and bad in both categories, when the menu is one item, there is no doubt what they cook best.

I really think that is why it is so hard, even in Southern California, to find great Thai reastaurants. When a Thai cook tries to be all things to all people, he/she rarely masters anything.

Even in Bangkok, most will go to a full menu restaurant for a particular dish. Although much of the menu might be edible, it's usually one item that makes the place.

I often think that's why there is always such a debate over full-menu Thai eateries. Often you'll find many loving and many hating the same place. It's probably a case of ordering from different sections of the menu.

[OnigiriFB]

I'm not saying you won't find a tad of sweetness to basil chicken but usually the sweet taste comes from plain old white sugar. The dark soy sauce added its own distinct flavor that is not just sweet but soy flavored which I found wierd in basil chicken. Call me old fashion but I don't think I would like the sweet version you mentioned.

Edited to add: good point about taste factors but that works in any restaurant/cuisine. I have an indian restaurant I adore but a guy I know from india thinks its horrible. Its more northern while he is from the south. The place he likes I think isnt as good. *shrug*

I agree about the screet carts/little shops. They make the dish day in day out obvious they have a lot of practice on making that dish well. I always found it funny that when a particular street stall becomes "popular" people always start saying they put drugs in it! But then you start seeing the mercedes and jags lined up or the poor chauffer or maid waiting in line for the ladies who couldn't deign to eat on the street. Then you KNOW its good.

Edited January 15, 2006 by OnigiriFB (log)

[prasantrin]

I think I remember Pim saying (when she used to participate in eG) that her family's style was more palatial, but I could be misremembering. 

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I'm not sure, but I think that could be referring to my father's family's style of cooking. I do remember "talking" with Pim a little about Royal Thai Cuisine during her (and Mamster's) eGullet course, but I don't remember if she said her family's cooking was of that style, as well.

[trillium]

Maybe you're right, that would be funny that I'm mixing you up with her! Sorry Rona.

Anyhow, I guess I don't think it's fair to compare Kasma's recipes to pizza served with ketchup. Kasma is Thai. She grew up in Thailand and every year spends half of it in Thailand. It isn't spent eating at touristy hotels in Bangkok! If you don't like her recipes fine, but I still say that doesn't mean they're not the "real deal" . I find some of them to be quite good, and others not to my liking. I don't use a recipe for something like basil chicken, I just make it, so I can't comment. I like all of her curry paste recipes, including the one for choo chee (my favorite). I also think many of her recipes are really useful starting points for things like khao yam, kao moek gkai, or som tom (I use the salted black crabs back here, they're my favorite, we ate them as far south as Songkla!). We'll have to disagree about basil chicken in Thailand, I found it to vary from vendor to vendor almost as much as the kanom jeen did, mostly in the sweetness level (I don't like it sweet) and amount of chilies. However I only ate it 3 times or so for quick lunches, so it's not like I did a big survey. I was more interested in eating things I can't make at home.

And again, I'll make the point that she never claims her recipe is set in stone or the only way to do something. I'll stop defending her now, she really doesn't need it, I guess it's just that her husband and she were so generous about sharing their knowledge about good night markets, spots to eat, beautiful places to visit through email, and then doing research on the latin names of the herbs I ate in the south for me when I got back, that seeing her getting dissed by people that don't know her credentials tends to bother me.

As for the smack-down, you gotta do your own paste! Otherwise the farang wins.

regards,

trillium