New Bakery, New Profession

[SweetSide]

I was just offered a job at a new bakery that is opening up in a good location in a good town. The goals of the owner seem to fit the same things that I want -- simple, beautiful, and delicious. As someone who wants to own my own shop some day, I see this as a good opportunity to see what it's like from the beginning. BUT....

I am also a new graduate from pastry school, just finishing an externship that admittedly is pretty stinky. Decent volume, mediocre desserts. This was a big mid-life career change for me -- insurance underwriting to pastry chef (wannabe).

At the new place, I'd be the top dog (scary thought there )! I don't need to work -- just want to do what I love, so it's not about job security. It's more about stepping in over my head.

Any advice from those who have been there? What should I consider? What should I watch out for? One thing I don't want to do is have my name associated with not being able to rise to the task -- or the mediocre desserts I'm doing now!

From all the posts I've read, I know that there are so many of you out there that have so much to offer!

Thanks!

[alanamoana]

I think a little more information would be helpful.

Where are you located?

What kind of volume is the owner looking to produce/sell?

Is it only desserts/pastry or will it be a small cafe as well?

Simple, beautiful and delicious are great general descriptors, but what does it really mean?

How confident are you in your organizational abilities?

How many employees will you be able to hire?

What will you be able to pay your employees (this will have an effect on the quality of employee you can hire)?

Do you want or expect to have a life outside of work?

How many hours/days are you willing to work? How much time off are you expecting?

I would definitely recommend you read through Wendy DeBord's food blog just to get an idea of what she produces on a day to day basis. I am a professional pastry chef and I am amazed at what she can produce by herself. She has to be very organized and cost conscious (due to the penny pinching nature of her managers).

I often feel like I am in over my head...this probably won't ever change for me no matter how long I do the job, but to take the helm of a new business is particularly challenging. I'll let some other professionals chime in, but first answer some of these questions and they'll be better equipped to respond.

[SweetSide]

alanamoana, thanks for getting me started. I'm so new, that even asking these questions of me gets me thinking. So, here are the responses...

Where are you located? The Hartford, CT area

What kind of volume is the owner looking to produce/sell? I don't know about volume, but this is something I will need to find out.

Is it only desserts/pastry or will it be a small cafe as well? Yes, it will be a small cafe as well -- 4 or 5 bistro tables. Coffee bar in the morning, light lunch (sandwiches, soup, and salad) which will be handled by someone else.

Simple, beautiful and delicious are great general descriptors, but what does it really mean? Classic European desserts, minimal decorations, all made from scratch. But, the pastries will run the gamut from scones to tarts and tortes.

How confident are you in your organizational abilities? This, I am good at. But, just because I am organized does not mean I will be able to get it all done.

How many employees will you be able to hire? None. It will be me and one other pastry person -- someone who is about 6 months behind me in schooling.

What will you be able to pay your employees (this will have an effect on the quality of employee you can hire)? Pay for me is $13/hour. Not a whole heap of $$.

Do you want or expect to have a life outside of work? Yes. I have a child (age 11) that needs my attention.

How many hours/days are you willing to work? How much time off are you expecting? I can work a 40 hour week -- not expecting much time off. Just had a year off

I think I can do nice work, but I won't put myself in the league of some of you out there. But, I fear that because I am still new, I haven't hit nearly so many snags that are out there to be hit and that I'm not nearly as fast as I will need to be.

Thanks for the food for thought....

[K8memphis]

Sweetside, Sweetie, Cheryl, you can do anything you want to do.

What else could you ask for in the way of a sweet pastry job???

If you did not take this job, what would make the next offer better????

Getting in over your head is the best way to learn how to get it done if indeed you would be over your head at all. You would get to grow with the business--invaluable opportunity.

How is your mise en place??? Are you fairly quick??? Are you quick at all??? That's what you wanna major in. You can fake or learn all the other stuff--you need to be organized and able to produce. Can you intertwine tasks??? Like while the bread is kneading, package up the cookies, set the bread to rise, start pies & scones, punch down the bread, get the pies out of the oven... blah blah blah???

If the owner wants to take a chance on you, take the chance that is offered.

Nobody is in the league of everybody. Be your own league.

The only thing that I question about what you wrote is that for me, I make beautiful no holds barred desserts/cakes for my family. At work, I am under someone else's thumb and under their budget restrictions as well as limited to the products that they are able to buy too. I'm too old to be very idealistic--while working for someone else. Which is why I wrestle moment by moment almost about starting my own place.

But I still say go for it. I mean the mediocre desserts sold well if the volume was decent. It is about selling.

[etalanian]

Cheryl,

I agree with everything K8Memphis said. Trust your ability - you are surely better than you give yourself credit for, and if you were an insurance underwriter, you have intelligence and common sense - two things that many people never have.

What I have found is that the people who are passionate about their work are the ones who succeed. If you have changed careers mid-life, you are obviously passionate about pastry making.

Give yourself a chance - and a little credit. Take this opportunity and learn what you can from it. Even if you find this job is not for you, you will have learned a lot from it, that you will be able to use at the next job.

And keep in mind that the only time you will be able to make exactly what you want the way you want to is if you have your own business. Compromising is part of the game.

Good luck and let us know what you decide and how things are going as the job goes along.

Eileen

[nightscotsman]

I really hate to be the one to throw some cold water on the encouragement and well wishes here, but as soon as I saw that you have a small child and can only work 40 hours a week, as well as it being only you and another completely inexperienced person in the kitchen, the red lights and sirens went off in my head. Please go read the Mel's New Bakery thread right away. You won't have to deal with the financing or build out like she did, but the type of work and number of hours she puts in should give you a good idea of what to expect running a small, quality operation.

I personally recommend that you get a few years experience at an established bakery in an entry level position before considering this offer. Of course it's very flattering and exciting to be handed the reins of a new place, but from what I've learned in the past couple of years as a career changer, I would have been completely unprepared for a situation like that right out of school. Even now I don't feel like I could really handle it with out a few more years of experience. Besides, by starting out in the top position, you are cheating yourself of the opportunity of learning from other chefs who know the business and can show you things you never even heard of in school.

[K8memphis]

It's true that learning from other people is invaluable. However it is not required to stay in an extended teacher/student mode in order to succeed. You have a very choice opportunity--it is not that premature. Forty-five bistro tables yeah, you might wanna hire in some helpers. Hell, the average Momma could handle 4-5 bistro tables. Don't over think this. You've got a gig--get excited!!!!

You've already gone to school & externed. Are you fast??? Can you get faster??? Sure we all could. Can you still learn?? Oh my yes.

If your kid was 2 years old, that'd be a little different although still do-able if you want to. Four to five bistro tables plus pastries & whatever else, you sure can do.

You're gonna hate yourself if you pass this up for some noble, 'I am not worthy' thought process. If all other things are equal.

Ask me what I really think

Yes, read Mel's bakery thing but realize that you are not the owner like she is. The owner of your bistro may only be able to afford you 40 hours a week. And they will use worker bees who get a smaller hourly wage to fill in the gaps as things get rolling.

Take a deep breath, plan your work, work your plan, one step at a time, watch for how you can improve your process for next time.

Here is a problem though, "How confident are you in your organizational abilities? This, I am good at. But, just because I am organized does not mean I will be able to get it all done."

Why cancha?

Start it today & finish it tomorrow then. Make something else. Yes you can.

[alanamoana]

sweetside,

please don't think i was starting this thread off on the wrong foot. i guess what is really necessary is some salt...as in take all of our advice with a few grains of it

neil has some great points as does k8memphis. it isn't that neil questions your abilities, he is just wondering what kind of sacrifices you're willing to make for the job. in other words, do you have a realistic picture of what is expected of you as an employee?

really, read through wendy's food blog, i think it is linked under her signature line on all of her posts. should be easy enough to find. again, a little salt, she does huge volume so it is a little different.

and finally, you'll never know unless you try. i've found that in the most recent jobs i've taken, i have learned more about what NOT to do than anything else. whether that's my fault for taking jobs without knowing what i was getting into or because i expected more out of the job than i actually received...who knows. regardless of that, learning what not to do is also very valuable.

[memesuze]

I think what I'd want to know is what is your sense of the owner's experience, desires, needs - will you be able to level with the owner when you need to take off after you have put in your 40 hours, but there is a crisis at the bakery? those times seem to come up time after time on the blogs and pastry/bakery threads

is this the owner's first time as well?

[SweetSide]

My, I don't even know what to say now...

alanamoana, no I didn't at all think you were getting the thread off on the wrong foot. It started me thinking deeper and gave more details about where I'm coming from -- or where I'm going.

As for the others, you are all tossing out thoughts that are already going through my head -- only adding the words of experience to them and that I need. Let me tell you, cubicle sitting can't be any futher from pastry work than the (dark side of the) moon is from the sun!

memesuze, This is the owner's first time as well. It is also a career change for her, and she is doing what I would like to do in, say, 10 years time. Open my own shop.

I know Neil isn't questioning my abilities and his words about red lights and sirens are those that are in my head as well. I just want to make sure I'm jumping into the deep end and not jumping into a deep end filled with boiling oil!

And part of me says, go for it. What's the worst that can happen? I hate it, can't keep up, and quit? I have a huge safety net to fall back on, and this career change is my chance to "go for it". I do want to continue learning and would love to be able to pick up and move to the big time, but my love of family is greater than my love of working and I would have to sacrifice the first for the latter.

I will find out from the owner what she is expecting for volume -- one weakness I have is sheer speed. Not keeping it organized -- I can do the "while the bread is kneading, package up the cookies, set the bread to rise, start pies & scones, punch down the bread, get the pies out of the oven... blah blah blah" but you guys who've been doing this for some time would leave me in the dust at this point. The speed, I know, will come with time.

More thoughts and ideas? I like this eGullet community...

And, I'll post my decision when it happens. And, if I take it, I'll post and let you all know if it was sink or swim...

[Pam R]

Hi Cheryl,

It sounds like an interesting job offer - but I'd be concerned about a few issues that some have already been mentioned. If you are the 'head honcho' in the kitchen - you are then responsible for getting things done. This means that if the 2nd baker can't finish something or is sick or can't make it in, you must fill their shoes as well as your own.

I think you need more facts - which you seem to be aware of. Volumes? Varieties? - I think that expecting a 40 hour week may be unrealistic.

I don't work for somebody else (well I do, but the boss in my case is my parents) - so when things need to be done, I need to do them. The three of us are working 7 days a week now (though we're only open 5). We're open from 9-5:30, but I'm at work somewhere between 7-8 and I'm not leaving until 7-7:30 Mon-Thurs. Friday we're closed at 3:30, but I'm getting out between 5 and 6. Saturdays are at the wholesale (which you probably won't have to do). Sundays I'm in doing prep. It's a small business - which is what you're talking about. When there are only a few people working, those people have to do everything - and you work until it's done.

I don't mean to be discouraging - you may not have some of these issues to deal with. I just think you need to make sure that you have all the facts from your employer before taking the job. What exactly does she expect from you? Unfortunately, she may not know.

Having said ALL of that , you have a good attitude! Your views on trying it and seeing if it fits are great. Just go in with as much information as you can.

Good luck!

[MarieinLA]

Hi Cheryl -

Working in a new small business is fun, but it's ALOT of work. Like the others, I'm not trying to discourage you at all, just throwing in a dose of reality. My question is, does your boss bake and will she be helping out as well or is it just you?

I opened my small shop last March, like yours, it's small volume, high quality, limited product line (mostly cupcakes, custom order cakes, cookies and scones). I also changed career in my thirties. For the first 6 months it was only me and my cousin (an experienced baker) and we both put in loooooooooooong days. Because she's family :-) she worked much more than a 40 hr week. I was also able to control the amount of orders we took, I was in the kitchen, so I knew how much we could handle and keep the quality high. Will your boss be willing to do this in the beginning? Or if not, and you are successful and really busy from the get go, will she be willing to hire more help? I guess what I'm saying, is find out exactly what volume/variety she is expecting and what her expectations are of your job. What if everything doesn't get done in the 40 hrs, just because it's not humanly possible?

I now also have a few part - time helpers, and slowly starting to feel like I know what I'm doing. Just know, that 4 am to 10 pm days are not uncommon. I know, It's my shop, so my hours are longer, but I also know that in the beginning, one full time and one part time person would not have been nearly enough...

I'm lucky and we're doing well so far, steady growth and just finished a crazy December. I realize this post is a bit all over the place, because that's where I am right now :-) opening a new place is fun and exciting and traumatic and maddening and pretty much every other emotion you can think of, and lots of work, and in a sick way, I wouldn't trade it for anything...

Good luck with your decision!

[TraciiTVCL]

Think of it as childbirth. It doesn't come with an owners manual. You will learn along the way. The Scotsman is right you would learn quicker from a seasoned professional, but you will still learn none the less. I own my own business and to tell you the truth it is hard work, lots of all nighters. You have the advantage of two other people. Since this is not your place , you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. If it doesn't work you wil gain some insight a to why not. If it does whoo hooo! you're going to have a riot. Either way keep the passion! And one day maybe you will step out on your own...

[sugarbuzz]

sweetside..I'm with Neil on this one. Get some experience first. Maybe start at PT with a good bakery & maybe 2 or 3 hours of your own time just learning the ins & outs of the whole operation.

Coming out of school & to be handed an opportunity like that makes you feel great I'm sure but you have to ask yourself..is this person hiring you to save $$ on hiring a more experienced baker. Does she have your interests at heart? Some owners will hire someone right out of school pay them crap money & work them to the bone.

And as you said before..if things don't work out what's the worst that can happen? you quit. So what happens to the owner when you decide to do that?

If your assistant decides to not show up for work one day will your boss help you out or will you be stuck on your own? Are you just doing the baking or are you expected to be the head of the kitchen which requires some management duties..purchasing,labor costs..etc.

It's the owners first time too & a career change as well? Does she know what she's getting into? I would sit down with her & talk about what you expect from each other.

When I was fresh out of culinary school I would never dream of taking on a job like that. Mostly because I had one great instructor who taught us the reality of the restaurant world. It doesn't matter how much confidence you have ..if the experience isn't there..then you're setting yourself up for disaster. This is all my opinion..I know some of you may feel otherwise... but in the almost 14 yrs I've been doing this I've worked for people who have no business calling themselves Pasty Chefs as well as people who should not be allowed to run a business.

[adoxograph]

Hello Sweetside!

I'm going to add in a few more cents here, precisely because I am new at this, too. I did school, did a six month internship, and then started my first job six months ago - number two of two people in a high quality, European style bakery with light lunches done by one other employee, who is also our dishwasher - total number in the shop is five, including the owner.

Two people is possible. I do work 40 hours, sometimes less sometimes more, but mostly stick to 40 because the owner isn't big on paying overtime . However, more often than not the hours are stretched over seven days rather than five. My Chef works significantly more than 40 hours, but we do some wholesale work, which ensures that we can afford to do the little special things we love to do in the shop, but also adds to our workload considerably.

The thing that surprised me the most, coming in to this, was how much time the details take. I do all the scaling for both of us, all the glazing of viennoiserie, decorate cakes, stock the shop, and this can take up more than half of my day sometimes. I can scale quickly, and never thought about the time it took until I started really seeing this kind of production.

If you decide to go for it, I would suggest you absolutely figure out how many items, of what kind you will be making. That will determine a lot of your workload right off the bat. If you are making breads, and danish, and cookies, and cakes, you better start planning how many varieties, and looking at where you can overlap to save yourself time. Start small, as small as you can, and build from there.

Make sure you and the owner are absolutely in agreement as to what your expectations are for the shop - if you need to get 200 petit fours done for an order, the owner needs to know that you won't be able to drop everything and make more cookies for the store.

How comfortable are you with suppliers? Adjusting your food costs? Do you have good contacts with other chefs in the area? Is your family comfortable with you working strange, irregular hours?

More than anything else, how flexible can you be? No matter how many questions and situations we can come up with, there are hundreds more we can't because they will be unique to your situation. Do you feel you have the resources to come up with the solutions?

Do fill us in on what you decide, if for no other reason than I'd love to hear if there's going to be a good bakery around Hartford, and good luck no matter what you decide to do!

[Wendy DeBord]

I'll try to helpful.........and just throw out a couple things that came to my mind...........you might want to duck though.........I can't sugar coat this.

First, and worst, I'd bet money that this bakery will fail, quickly (as soon as her savings run out). It's a very nieve dream......... not based on any reality/skill/experience/insight.

She's willing to put her money into creating a bakery where you design and own the recipes and product and she just supplys the flour and cracks the whip. Well, how kind of her to fund your dream and how stupid of her to think it will work for her. That shows a complete lack of understanding of both business and baking. In time, this won't work for you personally either. You'll get tired of running the place, you'll get crazied by her poor decissions and how they effect your work load and hours. Ever worked for a boss who didn't own a clue? It's really really hard!!! You can't always hold their hand and make it work........eventually you'll get real sick of it.

If I was you and wanted this job, I'd take the job cause someone will and it might as well be you.............run with it..........have fun with it, spend her money and learn learn learn. But don't in your wildest dreams think a bakery business with-out a plan or basic understanding of the business will make it.

This will be a great education on 'what not to do'. Don't expect to learn from this, you won't learn how to run your own place from this (as Neil mentioned, your better to learn how to succeed from someone else). That's the mistake that usually happens next. The employee thinks if only the boss had listened and taken all your suggestions.......they'd still be in business.........and that you could do it better just based on correcting their mistakes. The employee sinks their life savings into their own bakery and fails too. I've seen this done a couple times!!!

Before you put a penny into a bakery you've got tons to learn. More on how to run a business then on baking.........baking is the easiest part. Learn from people who have succeeded, not from people who haven't.

We can coach you thru tons of things.....give you tons of insight......etc.... But...BUT!!!........ it's not your bakery, you don't own it, you don't run it. Will she be able to run it? Does she know how to price and market "your" product.........heck no, she doesn't even realize she's buying a job in a highly unprofitable business.

From what you've written, this owner would have better luck at earning a return on her investment if she just pissed it away gambling, seriously.

[SweetSide]

No ducking here! I would rather have all of this hit me than be blind sided if or when I take the position. Still undecided for all the reasons mentioned by all of you...

But, I did want to clarify something that Wendy mentioned that may have been inferred -- I am not under the impression that I will own and design the recipes. The owner currently has a small catering business and she has recipes that she would like to use. Granted, I have no idea how good they are, but she has test marketed them at local restaurants who have bought from her. I don't think that she doesn't have a clue about business, but I do know that this is a big step for her, so there will definitely be a learning experience for all involved!

Not that I'm projecting it to be wine and roses above either, but I don't think it will necessarily be the way Wendy is portraying it (at least I hope not ) If it is, and I take the spot, I know where the door is.

And, because she is doing all the catering now herself, she does know how to prepare these desserts. Since I'm a newbie, I won't pass judgement on them until I see them for myself. And, when I said I would be "top dog", that was only meant to imply that I would be the most seasoned -- if that ain't a laugh, coming right out of school -- professional there. The owner will also be working in the kitchen.

We had a long discussion yesterday about my concerns, most of which are in this post either written by me or by the collective you. She understands that I have concerns about time and not staying all hours and her implication is that she understands and that it is her business and she knows that she will be there all hours. (a la Mel's New Bakery thread).

I don't think she can afford me on overtime is also one of the concerns on her part.

Still no decision, but I'm leaning toward that flying leap that it will be an adventure if nothing else! Heck, when I switched from being an underwriter to going to school, I had no idea if my love of baking could even possibly be a love of baking professionally -- so far, so good, even at my current stinky job

[Wendy DeBord]

Its good to learn of more details. I can only guess about things you haven't yet mentioned about this adventure. You and she already understand the following:

There's basicly two ways to make money in the pastry business. One is by doing exceptional high quality and priced custom work. The other is by doing volume. Same thing applies to catering....two ways to make a profitable business..........volume or unique high quality with a price to match.

The wholesalers (verses a small retail shop) have the market when it comes to volume and low pricing. You can't compete with them and make a profit with-out having a huge investment in volume producing equipment and staff. You can get some of their accounts, cause there's always businesses looking for better quality products. But they'll want your work at the same price as the big wholesaler, and you can't match that as a small retailer.

The more things you sell, like catered food, breakfast pastries, b-day cakes the more hands/emloyees it takes to make them from scratch, the more refridgerator and freezer space you'll need, the more square footage you'll need to store your raw product, the more equipment you'll need.....the less profitable each becomes. It's easier therefore more profitable to make 30 gallons of soup at once time in one flavor then 30 different flavored soups in 1lb. orders. It's easier/more profitable to sell 10 wedding cakes per week then 100 birthday cakes. Unforunately, when your building a business you can't be selective. You need money and don't know what the next order might bring, so you take everything that comes to you. You have to. That's the horrible struggle new businesses face.

The successful businesses I've seen, have a strong business plan and work it instead of relying upon the next customer in their door. They invest their time and money in marketing their product. If she already has a catering business and is making a profit/living with it, why further extend herself? It doesn't make sense to me. Why not extend the catering, why take on a second avenue?

I've met people/been related too people who love to cook and bake and don't know how to make a living doing so. So they open a retail business where customers/money/income comes to them. Their in fact, buying themselves a job. It's not a realistic profitable way to make money. You'll likely make someone money, but it will go to everyone but yourself.

So, then what is the main thing bothering you, what do you want in the way of assistance from us? To help you make up your mind? We support your decission either way, we're realists around here. Nothing ventured nothing gained...........go for it......... or don't. Do we think you have enough knowledge to fill the shoes she's wanting from you?.........none of us could possibly know. We've all had jobs that looked good from the outside and then the hours or work didn't match what the job description was or visa versa. We walk away or we stay and adjust.

[SweetSide]

I think I got what I was looking for -- emphasis on the things that would concern you as individuals who have more experience than me. What glaring thing did I miss? From the responses from all of you, nothing really. I gained confirmation that I have a good head on my shoulders, am keeping my eyes open, and that I won't commit professional suicide if I go for this.

You all were a sounding board with a professional background that my family and friend (made up of actuaries, engineers, teachers, accountants, etc.) don't have.

Now it's my turn to weigh the options and decide the next step.

[K8memphis]

I'm finding this discussion very interesting.

It seems to say, 'don't go near the water till you can swim'.

Of course there's a fair amount of devil's advocate going on to.

However...

Nothing worth while is easy.

You never know till you try.

One baker's failed chocolate cake is the next baker's brownie.

Let your passion be your guide.

JfinLA has a post about whithering bakeries. Oh my yes. The demise of the mom & pop bakery is legend. So if the owner will still do some catering, or is open to doing it going forward, and knows she needs a lunch counter, bistro type thing going, needs to multi-task as we love to call it, then it certainly has promise. Of course most new food establishments fail in the first year.

That's why you do a market study, have a business plan and enough money in place to survive without showing a profit for x-amount of months, even 12. Doesn't mean the sky really is falling. It just means you gotta watch where you step. But apparently if you throw it on the wall hard enough often enough something is gonna stick.

Fred Smith got a "C" on his thesis for a package delivery business. He is the founder of Fed Ex.

[Wendy DeBord]

I think I got what I was looking for -- emphasis on the things that would concern you as individuals who have more experience than me.  What glaring thing did I miss?  From the responses from all of you, nothing really.  I gained confirmation that I have a good head on my shoulders, am keeping my eyes open, and that I won't commit professional suicide if I go for this.

You all were a sounding board with a professional background that my family and friend (made up of actuaries, engineers, teachers, accountants, etc.) don't have.

Now it's my turn to weigh the options and decide the next step.

←

Great!!! Then we've helped! Keep us abreast of how things go, good or bad, o.k.?

[SweetSide]

Just an update for all of you who helped out with your lists of things to consider --

All things considered, I've decided to take the position ! Or should that be !

I realize that there are a lot of risks involved and they are ones that I'm willing to take at the moment. I would love to learn from a seasoned professional, but that isn't in the cards right now. I'm dedicated to continuing education and asking lots of questions. I'll likely have lots of posts as you all have lots of information.

For now, I'll be hanging out for a month in my current spot, then some time off knowing I won't see that again for a while. Opening day is slated to April 1 at the moment... Barring delays caused by renovations, permits, and the like.

Until then, thanks all for your input!

[Beanie]

Thanks for the update. Let us know how things progress and don't forget to post photos of the shop when it opens. I'd really be interested in knowing how the business evolves from the original concept, i.e., bakery vs. lunch trade. Good luck! I really hope this works out. Take a good rest between jobs; you'll need it.