US/FR Gastronomic Cultural Differences

[John Talbott]

There are the old rules of acceptable conversation.

The following subjects are banned at table:

Politics

Religion

Sexual proclivities and relationships of anyone present

The food being served

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Oh jackal, would that the

old rules

held.

Example: at a place like Tante Marguerite or the Restaurant le Club: la Maison des Polytechniciens, 12 rue de Poitiers in the 7th, (my favorite "cantine"), frequented by all the politicians who attended the "X," like all our civil war generals went to West Point or all the Viet Nam generals were classmates at Hue or Dalat, there is no discussion of Proust or Van Gogh or Zidane or Bernard Pivot (or even Star Academy); alas. If I overhear correctly (and that's in question for multiple reasons): it's all politics, sex and religion (well, some religions plus Tom Cruise - but not the Pope or Dalai Lama). And even the last few days in the 8th Le Cou de la Girafe and 16th Gaborieau-Pergolese, Chirac, Sarkosy, Shanghai and Romania were the hot topics.

As for food; sorry again, time has crept up on the old rules; some folks here are nutsier about wine than Napa wannabes. In "my crowd": admittedly a very bent group, it takes effort to talk about anything but the food. Even in the good old days, my "French father," like Monsieur Courtois in "French in Action," talked about little else (oh well, except Louison Bobet's performance that day in the Tour) but apertifs, food, wine and digestifs.

In re:

Sexual proclivities and relationships of anyone present

well, do we, then or now, anywhere discuss those people sitting next to us? - now to gossip about others, most especially politicians and celebrities, that's fair game. What minister is sleeping with which actress; why not? Getting back on topic; which chef is getting publicity doing what with whom?

[Ptipois]

It might be the custom only among my French family and acquaintences, however.  I got used to it.

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No, that's normal. The French - provided that they know a bit about food - won't stop talking about it. I heard that some Chinese, especially the Cantonese, were just like us. Our soul brothers.

[Ptipois]

I often observe that people wait at the table for example at my in-laws, until my mother in law says "bon appetit", and then everyone begins eating.  Perhaps its just the rhythm that the household has taken...  Or is there a custom or rule behind it?

I think I have mentioned it. No eating before the hostess has picked up her fork. This is the traditional way, still fairly popular. The hostess has to break the spell herself if she wants her guests to begin right away.

What's the best way to tell people to eat right away?  Sometimes, especially when I am hosting for 10 or 12 people,  and am serving plates, I want to express this and am not sure what is the best way.

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Just say it simply, "eat right away", "mangez maintenant !" There is no other way. If they are stubborn, say that the food will get cold in a menacing tone.

[Ptipois]

can anyone elaborate on the seemingly widely practiced custom of putting one's bread on the table, and not the plate?  at least, this is the case in bistros/brasseries... (not the high end places where everything comes on trays, dishes or plates)?  perhaps it's my misconception - but this seems to be practiced ubiquitously by the "jackets" and "jeans" alike...

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This one is very simple. No bread on the plate whatsoever, unless you're eating a sandwich. Bread always beside your plate, and not cut — broken with hand.

I actually regret that bread plates have become a standard in French restaurants. They're so contrary to our culture. Traditionally, putting bread on your plate would be considered selfish. The rule is based on the universal nature of bread: it doesn't belong to you, all bread on the table is collective property. Your bread isn't yours proper, and it may be taken by the person sitting next to you without your permission (this hardly ever happens though), because bread on the table means sharing.

If there's no bread left in the basket and you're out of it, someone at the table will very probably tell you : "Have mine" and hold it to you. This is not only very good manners, it is also very heartwarming and gets to the core of French courteousness.

[Ptipois]

There are the old rules of acceptable conversation.

The following subjects are banned at table:

Politics

Religion

Sexual proclivities and relationships of anyone present

The food being served

←

Hah!

And, to illustrate once again our age-old culture of transgression, these are the subjects most often discussed around many tables, including some of the most aristocratic ones. A dinner without at least one of these subjects brought up will yield after-dinner comments like "This was so boring, let's never go there again."

We're not simple folks. I know that.

[ulterior epicure]

I actually regret that bread plates have become a standard in French restaurants. They're so contrary to our culture.

...and a terrible clutter.

Traditionally, putting bread on your plate would be considered selfish. The rule is based on the universal nature of bread: it doesn't belong to you, all bread on the table is collective property. Your bread isn't yours proper, and it may be taken by the person sitting next to you without your permission (this hardly ever happens though), because bread on the table means sharing.

very interesting... this is what i enjoy about non-American dining - most everything is communal. thanks ptipois!

u.e.

[Tess]

There are the old rules of acceptable conversation.

The following subjects are banned at table:

right]

Where? Not my experience in US, UK, or Italy, except for the sexual proclivities of those present-- sometimes.

[balex]

There are the old rules of acceptable conversation.

The following subjects are banned at table:

right]

Where? Not my experience in US, UK, or Italy, except for the sexual proclivities of those present-- sometimes.

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It is a traditional rule in Engalnd, which is still practiced in clubs, colleges and probably officers' messes though I am guessing there. Violations are punished by sconceing.

The point, such as it is, is to avoid bitter arguments.

There are also prohitbitions about talking "shop".

Taken together these basically ban talking about a) anything interesting and b) anything you know a lot about. Insert emoticon of your choice here,

[ulterior epicure]

The point, such as it is, is to avoid bitter arguments.

perhaps so, but i would hope (hold) that any civilized diner would above arguing, and "discuss" issues in an open dialogue...

but that raises another observation. i've noticed that some cultures, which seem extremely passionate about food (boy, am i getting myself into trouble with that statement), like the italians, chinese, spanish and perhaps french, would put content of the conversation second to focusing/enjoying the communal experience. i contrast this (mainly) with the american culture, where even the greatest food could be ruined by an off-remark...

Edited December 12, 2005 by ulterior epicure (log)

[Bux]

Is it really bad manners to mop up one's plate with a piece of bread? I always thought it was acceptable in rustic bistros, but less so in those establishments sporting many forks, spoons and macarons in the red guide. On the other hand, I always thought it was socially unacceptable, that is, unacceptable to the other diners, but not at all unappreciated by the chef as a testament to his good cooking.

Nah. I wrote "mild bad manners", in fact it's very mild bad manners. It's tolerated and sometimes may be considered a proof of admiration for the cook. See, French manners are a bit tricky because of our ancestral ambiguity. On the one hand, we are very very formal. On the other hand, there's nothing we like more than transgression and breaking the rules. In some cases we make the rules stiff so that it shows more when we break them. I am not going to go into this in-depth because it's already difficult to understand for French people, so I may well make things more confusing for you here.

. . . .

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I don't at all claim to understand the French or their customs, but I have always felt comfortably at home in France. I've often felt I've found the French hospitable simple because they offer such good food, but it may actually be their love of transgression that makes me feel at ease. Many Americans need to argue the rules. I am content to defend their importance even while transgressing them.

[Carlsbad]

Just look at your trinqueur in the eyes while you clink, or you'll be rewarded with seven years of unlucky sex life.

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This thread is very informative and interesting. This explains something I haven't understood in seven years. Back in 1998, in Paris, I had something in my eye during a trinqueur, and had to deal with it. Now I understand what happened. I'm looking forward to 2006.

[Pan]

The point, such as it is, is to avoid bitter arguments.

perhaps so, but i would hope (hold) that any civilized diner would above arguing, and "discuss" issues in an open dialogue...

but that raises another observation. i've noticed that some cultures, which seem extremely passionate about food (boy, am i getting myself into trouble with that statement), like the italians, chinese, spanish and perhaps french, would put content of the conversation second to focusing/enjoying the communal experience. i contrast this (mainly) with the american culture, where even the greatest food could be ruined by an off-remark...

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Italians also typically love to argue. That made me very comfortable in Italy, because most Jews also love to argue. The point of discuzione (argument), though, is to have fun, not to make really serious accusations. I think there is a difference between good-humored argument and verbal confrontation.

balex, what is "sconceing"?

[rjwong]

No, that's normal. The French - provided that they know a bit about food - won't stop talking about it. I heard that some Chinese, especially the Cantonese, were just like us. Our soul brothers.

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Mon/ma camarade, your long-lost Cantonese cousin has found you!!

As for talking about the food being served (particularly in a restaurant), personally I rather not. I want to enjoy the entire dining experience, instead of giving constant comments after every bite. Isn't it to the chef's credit that the diner is enjoying the meal so much that he is silently eating. The food speaks for itself!

Would that be considered rude in France?

[ulterior epicure]

...Jews also love to argue. The point of discuzione (argument), though, is to have fun, not to make really serious accusations. I think there is a difference between good-humored argument and verbal confrontation.

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agreed! my point was that though some of these cultures produce very "hot-headed" peoples with very strong opinions - they almost never let their differences get the best of them in the presence of food...

[balex]

The point, such as it is, is to avoid bitter arguments.

perhaps so, but i would hope (hold) that any civilized diner would above arguing, and "discuss" issues in an open dialogue...

but that raises another observation. i've noticed that some cultures, which seem extremely passionate about food (boy, am i getting myself into trouble with that statement), like the italians, chinese, spanish and perhaps french, would put content of the conversation second to focusing/enjoying the communal experience. i contrast this (mainly) with the american culture, where even the greatest food could be ruined by an off-remark...

←

Italians also typically love to argue. That made me very comfortable in Italy, because most Jews also love to argue. The point of discuzione (argument), though, is to have fun, not to make really serious accusations. I think there is a difference between good-humored argument and verbal confrontation.

balex, what is "sconceing"?

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I think these are special cases where people have to live for many years in a community and one wants to avoid getting on each others nerves. Religiosu communities often eat in silence which I suspect has the same purpose ...

Sconceing involves drinking a whole bowlful of alcohol. (A sconce).

[Ptipois]

Mon/ma camarade, your long-lost Cantonese cousin has found you!! 

As for talking about the food being served (particularly in a restaurant), personally I rather not. I want to enjoy the entire dining experience, instead of giving constant comments after every bite. Isn't it to the chef's credit that the diner is enjoying the meal so much that he is silently eating. The food speaks for itself!

Would that be considered rude in France?

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Hello cousin!

No, that wouldn't be considered rude at all. Quite the contrary.

On the other hand, talking about the food being served doesn't mean giving comments after every bite. That would be considered boring and the French seem to loathe a boring meal more than a moderately bad-mannered one.

[John Talbott]

The point of discuzione (argument), though, is to have fun, not to make really serious accusations. I think there is a difference between good-humored argument and verbal confrontation.

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When we still lived in New York, my wife, Colette, and I were dining with Italian friends/colleagues in a loft in Milan where the trilingual discuzione got so hot and heavy over everything from grappa to Giorgione that we looked at each other and mouthed - "just like New York." To get back on topic, I've had similar discussions in France, but never in a restaurant and never quite so passionate and loud as in Italy or NY.

[Bux]

Italians also typically love to argue. That made me very comfortable in Italy, because most Jews also love to argue. The point of discuzione (argument), though, is to have fun, not to make really serious accusations. I think there is a difference between good-humored argument and verbal confrontation.

. . .

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Stereotypes aside. some of see an argument as a discussion, while others see a discussion as an argument. I sometimes have the feeling that Americans take dissent too personally.

[Bux]

. . . .  never in a restaurant and never quite so passionate and loud as in Italy or NY.

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Yes, "loud" was mentioned earlier. The French, at table and elsewhere tend to be much quieter than Americans. I'd note that this is a cultural difference without being judgmental. I'll admit that loud discussions from another table seem disruptive in France, but you're less likely to hear a American conversation over the din in a restaurant in Spain or Italy.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

....Traditionally, putting bread on your plate would be considered selfish. The rule is based on the universal nature of bread: it doesn't belong to you, all bread on the table is collective property. Your bread isn't yours proper, and it may be taken by the person sitting next to you without your permission (this hardly ever happens though), because bread on the table means sharing.

If there's no bread left in the basket and you're out of it, someone at the table will very probably tell you : "Have mine" and hold it to you. This is not only very good manners, it is also very heartwarming and gets to the core of French courteousness.

←

Thank you for this lovely, and finally reasonable, explanation of the custom.

[jackal10]

I wonder about the loudness (or the quiet) American. I think this is symptomatic of a much deeper cultural divide.

Let me be politically incorrect, to make a point.

The US is, in principle but not in practice, an egalitarian society with all equal. Thus status is given by the amount of money one controls, and many society values are driven by the scramble for money. Indeed, the lack of a comprehensive state aid scheme means amassing money is the very stuff of survival. Hence there is a great emphasis on selling and surface values, rather than, for example, deep quality or ancient tradition.

European values are quite different. Despite the French Revolution's cry of "Fraternité, Egalité, Liberté ", its an old society and societal values and status are not primarily money related. The state social support structure is more developed, and acquiring money is not so necessary for survival. Salesmanship is not valued; self-promotion is seen as rude, and indicative of a lack of intrinsic self worth. Europeans don't need to shout; they know they are superior. .

Hence (except in tourist places) the waiter will not explain the dishes unless asked; it should just taste amazing. To do so would be insulting and assume you do not have the comprehension to know what you are eating.

Edited December 14, 2005 by jackal10 (log)

[Margaret Pilgrim]

Another question about wine service. When dining alone and sharing a bottle of wine at dinner, my husband and I often (perhaps not often enough) face a leftover quantity. My husband usually serves it, although we both know that it won't be drunk. I feel that excess quantity should remain in the bottle, which can then, in very informal settings, be handed over to a neighboring table, sampled by staff or tossed into the house vinegar pot. What's right?

[therese]

Another question about wine service.  When dining alone and sharing a bottle of wine at dinner, my husband and I often (perhaps not often enough) face a leftover quantity.  My husband usually serves it, although we both know that it won't be drunk.  I feel that excess quantity should remain in the bottle, which can then, in very informal settings, be handed over to a neighboring table, sampled by staff or tossed into the house vinegar pot.  What's right?

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Heh heh---I've never considered the issue, as it happens so rarely, particularly with my husband.

But it did happen last year when dining with a female (French) friend in Montpellier. There was enough that it wouldn't have been possible to serve between the two of us in any case. The restaurant owner asked if she'd like to take it home, and she said fine. It was nicely packaged up with a new reusable stopper in a specially made bag (the sort that we use as gift wrapping for wine here in the U.S.).

[John Talbott]

Another question about wine service.  When dining alone and sharing a bottle of wine at dinner, my husband and I often (perhaps not often enough) face a leftover quantity.  My husband usually serves it, although we both know that it won't be drunk.  I feel that excess quantity should remain in the bottle, which can then, in very informal settings, be handed over to a neighboring table, sampled by staff or tossed into the house vinegar pot.  What's right?

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Heh heh---I've never considered the issue, as it happens so rarely, particularly with my husband.

But it did happen last year when dining with a female (French) friend in Montpellier. There was enough that it wouldn't have been possible to serve between the two of us in any case. The restaurant owner asked if she'd like to take it home, and she said fine. It was nicely packaged up with a new reusable stopper in a specially made bag (the sort that we use as gift wrapping for wine here in the U.S.).

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Yes, heh heh, I too cannot imagine such a thing.

But all kidding aside, with the tougher alcohol/driving laws, more & more places will offer to cork the bottle (it first happened to me in August 2004 at Le Regalade and has happened at bistros but not gasto-restos, since). Since I'm often eating alone, I find it a nice touch, although more & more places are charging you "a la ficelle" eg as the thread measures the depth; as in "at the mark - twain."

[therese]

But all kidding aside, with the tougher alcohol/driving laws, more & more places will offer to cork the bottle (it first happened to me in August 2004 at Le Regalade and has happened at bistros but not gasto-restos, since).  Since I'm often eating alone, I find it a nice touch, although more & more places are charging you "a la ficelle" eg as the thread measures the depth; as in "at the mark - twain."

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You mean if I order a bottle of wine (well, a demi) and can't finish it they'll only charge me for the portion I've consumed? Cool.

Edit to add: I never drive in France. So I'm guessing this will remain entirely a theoretical possibility for me.

Edited December 16, 2005 by therese (log)