US/FR Gastronomic Cultural Differences

[John Talbott]

They can practice their English almost daily; opportunities to speak French in the USA mainly consist of watching "le Journal" daily for 30 minutes at 7PM!! 

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This is really not OT because food does get talked about on the news, but one can now get Telematin, the 13h00 and 20h00 news on France 2; the 20h00 journal on TV 1 and the Guignols on Canal + at approximately the same time, all via your friendly computer. So it's more than 30 minutes.

[Ptipois]

You think this "gracious" provision holds true for non-alcoholic drinking guests?  I don't drink, and I have a sneaking suspicion that it might be the root of some "off-service" in French restaurants when a simple carafe d'eau is requested...

Legally, no restaurateur, big or small, can refuse to serve a carafe d'eau. That's part of the 15 % service tax on your check. Now some just give you a dirty look when you ask but they can't refuse.

Re: minimal water-intake... I to marvel at the (low) levels of water that the French seem to get by on.  I'm sure that I would choke    on my food for lack of hydration if I were limited to a demi of Perrier through a salty, fatty multi-course meal - even if I were drinking wine! 

Actually, drinking water while eating is not encouraged in French culture. It is supposed to slow down digestion, and BTW drinking iced water is supposed to ruin your stomach. Drinking water after eating is considered better for you.

[therese]

Actually, drinking water while eating is not encouraged in French culture. It is supposed to slow down digestion, and BTW drinking iced water is supposed to ruin your stomach. Drinking water after eating is considered better for you.

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I remember being specifically cautioned by my French grandmother against drinking water while eating couscous, as the consequences were reportedly dire.

I don't specifically remember hearing about ice cold water in France, but was informed by the Italian family for whom I worked au pair one summer that the reason we all had the runs was that we'd been keeping our water in the fridge (we were on holiday at the shore and it was brutally hot). My suggestion that swimming in the (obviously) dirty sea and brushing our tea with the local nonpotable water might be somehow connected was considered entirely improbable.

[John Talbott]

Actually, drinking water while eating is not encouraged in French culture. It is supposed to slow down digestion

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Well, after two days' eating in the 8th I can state with certainty that for guys who work and go to lunch and wear ties - drinking water is OK.

[Pan]

A propos the French or English from waiters question, I spent 4 weeks in Nice in the summer of 1992 and 2 weeks there in the summer of 1993, and to the best of my memory NOT ONCE did ANY waiter (or boulangere or glacier, etc.) speak with me in any language other than French. Either things have changed, or other variables are coming into play.

[Ptipois]

Well, after two days' eating in the 8th I can state with certainty that for guys who work and go to lunch and wear ties - drinking water is OK.

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Everybody drinks water. Even at lunch. But not much of it, if you look closely. These guys at some point have had to emancipate themselves from their mothers, who may well have kept telling them "Ne bois pas en mangeant", as so many French mothers have done for time immemorial.

Drinking water in restaurants, especially at lunch, is also a by-product of the recent avoidance of wine (more and more people don't drink wine at lunch because it ruins their afternoon and they can't work).

[Ptipois]

I remember being specifically cautioned by my French grandmother against drinking water while eating couscous, as the consequences were reportedly dire.

Your grandmother was perfectly right. One is not supposed to drink water while eating couscous, though a sip of thé à la menthe or some wine is perfectly acceptable. Just look at what happens to couscous after a few minutes when you've poured the broth onto it and the vision speaks for itself.

[Fat Guy]

As a matter of fact, the French are actually a MORE polite culture than Americans--strict rules of etiquette are expected to be followed there. 

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A couple of references have been made to "the complexities of French etiquette" and "strict rules of etiquette." I do think it's safe to say that, in the American dining culture, people care a lot less how you use your fork and knife, what kind of water you drink and when, how often you go to the bathroom, etc., than they do in the French dining culture. The French probably do have more etiquette, but does that make them more polite?

Miss Manners offers three illustrations where rigid adherence to rules of etiquette would have come in conflict with politeness, and how those conflicts were averted:

Queen Victoria had a guest at a banquet who drank the water from his finger bowl. Her immediate reaction was to drink the water from her finger bowl as well, so as not to let the guest be embarrassed.

At a party at the Moroccan embassy in Washington, DC, President Kennedy dipped his fingers into his teacup and wiped them on his napkin. The King of Morocco immediately followed suit.

And she tells this story:

Then there was the time that Mrs. Grover Cleveland attempted to engage a tongue-tied guest in conversation by seizing on the nearest thing at hand, an antique cup of thinnest china. "We're very pleased to have these; they're quite rare and we're using them for the first time today," she is supposed to have said. "Really?" asked the distraught guest, picking up his cup and nervously crushing it in his hand. "Oh, don't worry about it," said the hostess. "They're terribly fragile. See?" She smashed hers.

When rules of etiquette are used as justifications for contemptuousness and superiority, they have come unhinged from their moorings. They are no longer about politeness.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

I think we aren't talking about manners, but of cultural expressions.

Americans tend to have the idea that as paying consumers, they have the right to define what they are buying, whether it's a new suit or a meal. When travelling abroad, however, we need to change our orientation from consumer to that of guest, which involves an entirely different set of parameters. The active willingness to perceive and accept the habits of our hosts goes a long way to paving the way for a mutually satisfying visit.

[Fat Guy]

I don't think it's nearly so cut and dry. For example, do you think American or French restaurant "guests" are more likely to treat restaurant staff as social equals, to strike up personal conversations with them, etc.?

[Margaret Pilgrim]

I don't think it's nearly so cut and dry. For example, do you think American or French restaurant "guests" are more likely to treat restaurant staff as social equals, to strike up personal conversations with them, etc.?

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I can only go by my own experience, but I think that our French acquaintances are more social with staff than either we or our friends are at home. I'm not sure I see your inference or how this applies or to what.

[Fat Guy]

My experience has been exactly and emphatically the opposite, and indeed several French acquaintances (and European acquaintances in general) have complained to me about the over-friendliness of American servers, preferring servers who just take orders, bring food and stay out of things. But no matter -- the point I'm trying to make is that it's not as simple as a blanket statement that Americans behave as customers and French behave as guests. Nor is either model an absolute. A restaurant presents a hybrid social-business situation. No restaurateur in France who operates an establishment above the level of a neighborhood mom-and-pop bistro literally believes the customers are guests, and America is full of mom-and-pop businesses where the proprietors believe their customers are guests who should feel privileged to be there. Likewise, American restaurant customers typically understand that, while they are customers, they're in a social situation as well.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

I don't think it's nearly so cut and dry. For example, do you think American or French restaurant "guests" are more likely to treat restaurant staff as social equals, to strike up personal conversations with them, etc.?

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I can only go by my own experience, but I think that our French acquaintances are more social with staff than either we or our friends are at home. I'm not sure I see your inference or how this applies or to what.

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My experience has been exactly and emphatically the opposite, and indeed several French acquaintances (and European acquaintances in general) have complained to me about the over-friendliness of American servers, preferring servers who just take orders, bring food and stay out of things. But no matter -- the point I'm trying to make is that it's not as simple as a blanket statement that Americans behave as customers and French behave as guests. Nor is either model an absolute. A restaurant presents a hybrid social-business situation. No restaurateur in France who operates an establishment above the level of a neighborhood mom-and-pop bistro literally believes the customers are guests, and America is full of mom-and-pop businesses where the proprietors believe their customers are guests who should feel privileged to be there. Likewise, American restaurant customers typically understand that, while they are customers, they're in a social situation as well.

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I am confused. I thought the question was about the extent to which diners initiate conversation, not that which is started by the server. The French we dine out with are longtime clients of the restaurants they patronize, and as such may well ask Madame about the health of her aged mother or progress of a child. At more formal places, they again will have some existing relationship with the front of house. But you are absolutely right: the average Frenchperson would be appalled at the in-your-face intimacy of many casual American restaurant servers.

We are also confusing the customer/guest point. I said not that Americans behaved as customers and French as guests, but that Americans often demand the rights of a consumer when they would be better served were they to adopt the attitude of a guest.

[Behemoth]

My experience has been exactly and emphatically the opposite, and indeed several French acquaintances (and European acquaintances in general) have complained to me about the over-friendliness of American servers, preferring servers who just take orders, bring food and stay out of things.

On the other hand, yesterday my (German) husband was lamenting that once we move back he will no longer have cute young female college student waitresses chatting him up at the pubs.

[Fat Guy]

I thought the question was about the extent to which diners initiate conversation, not that which is started by the server.

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Now I'm the one who's confused. Perhaps who initiates conversation would make a difference from the perspective of a master dealing with servants, but it shouldn't make a difference to someone who is adopting the attitude of a guest among social equals. However, again in my experience, American customers are far more likely to initiate social conversation with waitstaff than French ones. I should qualify that: with waitstaff who are strangers. The example of a customer with a long-time relationship with the proprietors or staff strikes me as a separate point, and that's the same for regulars at restaurants most everywhere.

[SuzySushi]

I'm not sure where this fits in with the above, but when entering a small shop in France (not a huge supermarket, which is as impersonal there as it is here) the customer usually initiates the conversation by greeting the staff member with a polite "Bonjour, Madame/Monsieur." In the USA, the staff is usually first to greet the customer with a "May I help you?" or say nothing until the customer is ready to make a purchase.

[Pan]

I'm not sure where this fits in with the above, but when entering a small shop in France (not a huge supermarket, which is as impersonal there as it is here) the customer usually initiates the conversation by greeting the staff member with a polite "Bonjour, Madame/Monsieur." In the USA, the staff is usually first to greet the customer with a "May I help you?" or say nothing until the customer is ready to make a purchase.

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Right, but actually, you greet not only the staff but whoever is in the store, so the greeting is usually "Bonjour, Messieurs-Dames," and one usually says "Au revoir, Messieurs-Dames" upon exiting. That's a really important fact many foreigners who haven't yet been to France don't know. I learned the expression prior to arriving in France, but doubted that this would really be a general case or still in general use until I heard French people saying exactly that in boulangeries, et al. I thereupon adopted the custom and made it a consistent habit while in France.

Edited December 11, 2005 by Pan (log)

[SuzySushi]

I'm not sure where this fits in with the above, but when entering a small shop in France (not a huge supermarket, which is as impersonal there as it is here) the customer usually initiates the conversation by greeting the staff member with a polite "Bonjour, Madame/Monsieur." In the USA, the staff is usually first to greet the customer with a "May I help you?" or say nothing until the customer is ready to make a purchase.

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Right, but actually, you greet not only the staff but whoever is in the store, so the greeting is usually "Bonjour, Messieurs-Dames," and one usually says "Au revoir, Messieurs-Dames" upon exiting.

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Ah! Many of the shops I frequented in France were so tiny that there was only the one proprietor behind the counter!

[John Talbott]

I'm not sure where this fits in with the above, but when entering a small shop in France (not a huge supermarket, which is as impersonal there as it is here) the customer usually initiates the conversation by greeting the staff member with a polite "Bonjour, Madame/Monsieur." In the USA, the staff is usually first to greet the customer with a "May I help you?" or say nothing until the customer is ready to make a purchase.

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Even at a super- or hyper- marche one says "Bonjour" and "Au voir." Indeed, I find myself saying hello or good day now in US markets and people respond surprisingly enthusiastically to have been paid attention to.

In addition, I do find it is more likely that in France saying hello and goodbye to the entire shop or restaurant is a habit more likely held by folks my age and more often in small towns.

A story I've told before; a good friend arriving at Charles de Gaulle walked up to a customs officer and launched into a polite, detailed description in French of a question of importation into France. After this long query; the agent nodded as only someone who wishes to be of service can, and as if echoing the last sentence of Portnoy's Complaint said "Bonjour Madame."

[Pan]

I'm not sure where this fits in with the above, but when entering a small shop in France (not a huge supermarket, which is as impersonal there as it is here) the customer usually initiates the conversation by greeting the staff member with a polite "Bonjour, Madame/Monsieur." In the USA, the staff is usually first to greet the customer with a "May I help you?" or say nothing until the customer is ready to make a purchase.

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Even at a super- or hyper- marche one says "Bonjour" and "Au voir." Indeed, I find myself saying hello or good day now in US markets and people respond surprisingly enthusiastically to have been paid attention to.

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Here in New York, I say "Hi" or "How's it going?" to people I know at shops where I'm a regular, but I also do have a habit of saying "How's it going?" to cashiers I don't know, as long as they aren't absolutely slammed (and I usually stay away from supermarkets and so forth at such peak hours). Sometimes, I find that cashiers don't expect to be talked to and ask what I said. In some shops where I shop really frequently, I may have longer conversations with the countermen, time allowing. They may ask me how my music is going, how my brother is, etc., depending on how much they know about me and whether they know other family members. So let it not be said that New York is a totally anonymous city, though things here are a far cry from the "Hi! How are you!" while waiting on line in grocery stores and the like in places like the Carolinas.

In addition, I do find it is more likely that in France saying hello and goodbye to the entire shop or restaurant is a habit more likely held by folks my age and more often in small towns.[...]

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I guess these things are changing. In the early 90s, middle-aged ladies were saying these things in Paris boulangeries, charcuteries, etc. I didn't much note whether there was a difference during a much briefer (2-week total) trip in 2002 (the total lengths of time I spent in France were something like 6 or 7 weeks in 1992 and 4 weeks in 1993, I think). I love the story you retold.

[Ptipois]

A story I've told before; a good friend arriving at Charles de Gaulle walked up to a customs officer and launched into a polite, detailed description in French of a question of importation into France.  After this long query; the agent nodded as only someone who wishes to be of service can, and as if echoing the last sentence of Portnoy's Complaint said "Bonjour Madame."

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Oh, that's an easy one.

Your friend probably had not started her long description with "bonjour monsieur", so when she was done he restored the normal protocol of the conversation so that they could go on, and politely pointed out to her that she hadn't begun the right way, or maybe that she hadn't given him a chance to return her initial "bonjour".

One cannot stress enough the importance of "bonjour" in the French language.

[bleudauvergne]

If, for example, a person enters a store, and they say "bonjour", should they expect that others stop what they are doing and respond to this greeting?

If there is a line to get into the shop that is going out the door, (for example a butcher or a baker) at what point should someone say "bonjour", when they enter the line, or when they pass the threshold of the shop?

I live in a fast moving metropolitain area, and the neighborhood where I live is a young one, and many of the kids (in their early 20s) coming into shops don't greet the room. No one seems to think this strange. Why? I do invariably greet the people with whom I deal with regularly coming into the shop, and again when we start our transaction. Most the time, they're busy with another customer and don't acknowledge the initial greeting. 90% of the time I enter a store and say "bonjour", the other clients behave as if I've said nothing. In fact I'm suprised if someone responds. Why is this?

[Fat Guy]

In just about every English-language guidebook to France, you'll find the "say bonjour upon entering an establishment" advice featured prominently. And it's something my parents explained to me when they took me to France as a kid. So imagine my surprise when, traveling there as an adult, the first six or seven times I attempted to follow this advice I was either preempted or ignored. At the luxury level of dining and accommodations, I wasn't able to get a bonjour out before being greeted by the staff. In the shops and smaller restaurants, I was pretty much ignored. I've tried to keep at it, and tend to have luck in small shops especially outside Paris, but it's probably not accurate to advertise the bonjour thing as a universal French custom. Yes, if you enter an empty shop and the shopkeeper is in view and not doing something (talking on the phone, doing paperwork), you may be treated to a scene, as if from a Capretz method French language video, of happy exchanges of "Bonjour!" but is it a majority practice?

[mzimbeck]

All this talk about water is making me bloated

In Paris I order a carafe of water with nearly every meal and it's almost never a problem. Just tack it on to the end of your order, "et...un carafe d'eau s'il vous plait." My french friends do this, too. It's not seen as an American sort of request. What is more typically American, however, is to want water immediately, and to want lots of it. Servers in America are trained to bring water upon minutes of a customer's arrival. It's a signal to the customer that they've been recognized. Americans also tend to drink much more liquid than the french - at meals and continuously throughout the day. The oral fixation can also be seen in the very different habits regarding snacking and nibbling through meals. I say this as someone in recovery - upon moving to Paris, I had to re-examine the impulse to always have a beverage in my hand (giant coffee! 32 oz soda! keep it comin'!) and ask myself if I was really thirsty or not. For some Americans, these two culturally-constructed factors contribute to anxiety in French restaurants. Americans who are unable or unwilling to recognize the differences at play feel that they're not being recognized, that they're being deprived of a basic need, etc. Anxious and early requests for water can then turn off the French server and poison the rest of the meal. As for ice, just forget about it. Come to terms before you get on the plane that you will not have ice in France and that you do not need it. The desperation that attends Americans' requests for ice and liquid is completely baffling for the French.

As for English spoken in french establishments, the only time a waiter replies to me in English is when I'm in the tourist arrondissements. I'd speculate that this relates to exposure (to tourists) and monetary incentive (to keep tourists coming in). Establishments in those areas are probably hiring multilingual staff when possible. The general level of English profiency among the French is not high (as French among Americans is not high), and it's a mistake to assume that your server really does speak English and is just holding out on you. But from my point of view, it's a mistake to visit another country and not take the time to learn basic restaurant phrases in order to get by.

In general, I think that when American show some humility, flexibility and gratitude (as they would when invited to someone's home) in a french establishment, they're treated very well. Exeptions to the contrary exist, especially in tourist areas, and are especially and unfortunately prevalent among customers who are not white, slim, and well-dressed. As you've seen in the news lately, these requirements extend beyond the restaurant doors, as well.

Edited December 11, 2005 by mzimbeck (log)

[bleudauvergne]

Excellent summary of the water issue, Meg.

I will add that sometimes when visiting someone's home you may be offered ice. If you say yes, expect one single ice cube.