How to make really great stock/jus

[nathanm]

Great sauces and soups start with a great stock, or in some cases a richer form using roasted meat called a jus or glace de viande.

Chicken stock and veal stock are probably the most commonly used versions, but stocks and jus can be made from any protein. Reduced forms like demi-glace or are important for some purposes, but mostly are oriented around making something more concentrated for storage.

Thousands of cookbooks have a prefunctory recipe for stock, but it is usually neither very detailed, or very good. Average quality stock can still make for a great final dish if the disk not depend much on the stock for flavor. However, many dishes DO depend on the stock.

There are plenty of variables in most recipes, and I'll briefly summarize them:

- Some people like lots of vegetable flavors in a stock. This includes herbs (bouquet garni), or vegetables (onion, leek, leek greens, shallots, garlic, tomato paste). Others swear by the purity of having only meat proteins involved, figuring that they can add herbs and vegetables later on.

- Light stocks are usually made of unroasted or browned protein. Dark stocks require roasting the meat extensively, sometimes to a very dark brown, prior to stock making. This is a matter of both personal preference and the intended usage.

- Stocks are often made of scraps or cuttings as an economy measure. Which is fine if icost is what is most important to you. Some chefs however, argue that this is silly - if a recipe requires very best stock, why not use meat bought just for stock making? Labor cost may well exceed the cost of materials anyway.

- Bones are traditionally an important part of stock making because they are a good source of both flavor and gelatin (which comes from collagen in joints and cartilidge However, meat is an important stock soure as well. So some chefs use meat largely, or exclusively.

- If you use meat, you have the choice of cooking it to the point where it is still usable (i.e. removed and used for other dishes), or cooking it to the point where it is worthless for other purposes and has given it all to the stock.

- How long should a stock cook? Typically a fish stock is 30 min, chicken stock is an hour or 2 and veal stock is 8-10 hours. However there are some huge exceptions to this in some recipes. Who is right?

- Some people are deeply committed to skimming scum off the stock, believing that all is lost if you don't. Others laugh and say they'll skim at the end, or just strain the batch and forget it with no ill effect.

- Some people swear by a low temperature, sub boiling simmer. Others (notably Heston Blumenthal) use a pressure cooker, which contradicts a lot of books that claim a PC is the ultimate no-no in stock making.

That does not list all of the controversies - just some of them. Chefs in restaurants where I have worked or visited will invariably have a list of "never do this", and "always do that" - and many of them just plain contradict each other.

I make stock all the time, and while I think it is decent, but I am not entirely satisfied. I use stock enough that I would like to get the ultimate stock making recipe for chicken, veal, beef and fish stock. I'd also like the richer "jus" variation which is more like the reduced and concentrated juices from a roast.

As an example of all this, Alain Ducasse has fairly elaborate stock and jus recipes in his giant Grand Livre de Cuisine. However, while they sure look good in the photos (and tastes good at his restaurants), the recipes leave a lot to be desired. For Chicken Jus it has lines like "the desired doneness" without saying what it is. Other instructions are even more vague. I am sure Ducasse makes a mean stock and jus in his restaurant, but the book recipe does not do it justice.

Ducasse follows the traditional (Escoffier) method of repeatedly moistening the meat with stock then reducing, then doing it again. This has the benefit of tradition, but is there really a point to the repeated moistening, and reduction? I'm not sure that I believe this from a scientific or rational stand point.

In another recipe, Ducasse has a strange ingredient for his chicken stock - powdered chicken bullion! Not as a major component, but still, one wonders why he thinks he needs that.

My guess is that stock making is such an old and basic part of kitchen practice that it may be more subject to the bounds of tradition. I wonder if the traditional stock and jus making recipes are really the optimal way to make great stock. I also think that stock making tends to get short shrift in cookbooks - it just isn't an exciting or sexy compared to a complicated main dish.

An interesting clue for me is that the flavor of drippings in a roast pan seem to come mainly from juices that have not simply been reduced - they have been evaporated to a solid roasted brown sludge. I wonder if the best way to make a jus wouldn't be to "juice" the meat (either mechanically in a juicer or by simmering to make a conventional stock) then evaporating the whole thing to a solid and carefully roasting it to get the maliard reaction. The roasted sludge could then be rehydrated with water into a demi-glace, jus or stock. Is this the answer?

I'm going to do some experiments, but in the mean time I'd be curious as your favorite recipes for the ULTIMATE stock and jus from fish, chicken, veal, beef.

[MobyP]

I didn't realise how far removed a real Jus was from a stock reduction until I started experimenting with the Ducasse method from his encyclopedia (watch out for the numerous translation errors). A little background reading, and I discovered that his method really comes from his time with Chapel, who much preferred the real roasting flavours to come through rather than the mouth-chapping stickyness of a reduced bone stock. Although, the Ducasse method often produces a slight variation on the traditional jus - a 'jus perlé' - which I find delicious. There's a picture of it here (which for some reason I had trouble importing into this thread). The addition of butter gives it that streaky effect, and adds a wonderful full flavour - in contrast to the 'monté a buerre' effect of creating an emulsion at the end by adding cold butter, this jus remains split. I think these types of sauces bring a huge intensity and complexity of flavour without the over-stickyness of glace reductions, or the obscuring alcohol notes.

Indeed, Keller's instructions for 'Quick Sauces' seem too close to be a coincidence, with the exception of the butter, and also seem influenced by the three months he spent at Chapel. I really like Keller's three part veal stock - as a method - but I missed the roasting flavours, so I added those back in. Not too much, just a little; and I use less tomato paste as a result. The shorter cooking times at lower temperatures give a nice light flavour - if lower yield. But then the second cooking of the bones adds a great body. [incidentally, if you overcook the veal stock (and I've run mine to three days, just to see what would happen), you do get those calcium bone flavours leaching into the liquid, which is not good.] I add a second batch of veg to the second veal stock, rather than re-using the first. I wanted to avoid the addition of too many vegetable particles from overcooking. Anyway, when reduced together, it makes a great glace which has a pretty neutral, round flavour, but acts as a tremendous magnifying glass for any other flavours that I want to add to a sauce. In terms of flavour and usefulness, it's half way between a 'blonde' and a 'brun.'

I think it - the Jus-ness - comes down to when and how you add the roasting notes. Many methods have you roast the bones in the oven before the stock process. 2 star Michelin chef David Everitt-Matthias (Le Champignon Sauvage) has sauces of the most astonishing colours and clarity. He browns all of his bones on the flat top - where he can control the process - and then runs the stock at a vast rolling boil until reduced, with the minimum of skimming. But he adds NO veg, preferring just the meat flavours. No one who sees how he does it can believe his sauces are so clear.

I hope you take pictures of your experiments...

Edit to add: I forgot to say that I've started doing something slightly new. I now cook the chx stock for about an hour, and the veal for about 3-4 hours - before I put the veg in. I find that after about 1.5 to 2 hours, the fragrance given off by the veg starts to fade, so I don't like to cook them too much more than that. Also, it allows me time to really skim away the impurities before the adddition of vegetables.

Edited December 2, 2005 by MobyP (log)

[jackal10]

Lets try and figure out what is going on when making a stock/jus.

I'm sure there must be lots of work on this, although I've not found any useful references.

There seem to be two stages to the process

1) Extraction

Here mostly water soluble flavours are dissolved from the stock components. A few fat soluble flavours will also be picked up in emulsified fats. Comparatively large amounts of water are used in order to lower the solute pressure and enhance extraction.

This has several implications:

a) Meats must be above the muscle degradation temperature so the components are available

b) The stock must be cooked for sufficient time (temperature dependent) for the collagen to dissolve, if desired. That is mostly a texture component.

c) On the other hand it should not be cooked for so long that the collagen in the bone matrix dissolves releasing the calcium hydroxide ("bone taint")

d) Maillard flavours can be obtained by either pre-roasting, or by cooking long, hot and concentrated enough for them to occur in solution

e) One key issue is emulsification. If the stock is boiled fast, then the fat present can form an emulsion. This can add oil-based flavor components, but cloud the stock. I guess it depends on the proposed use as to whether clarity wins over taste.

f) Some impurtities (mostly blood proteins) may form a foam, that mechanically can capture fine particles, that then disperses as the proteins cook

2) Concentration

Traditionally by boiling off the water used to assist the extraction. Side effects are

a) loss of aroma

b) Maillard reactions as the stock concentrates

c) Emulsification

d) A skin may form from polymerisation of protein components at the surface

I think that both stages of stock making can have process changes, for example one could consider concentrating under vacuum, or extraction using other media, such as alcohol.

Personally when making a jus I use the traditional method of roasting the meat, bones and vegetables, then simmering at about 90C for 12 hours, then concentrating. When making a light stock, for a potage for example, I use a pressure cooker and chicken wings, since I don't mind it cloudy.

Edited December 2, 2005 by jackal10 (log)

[fifi]

Let us not forget about the great eGCI course on making stock. It is the basics but a great place to start. I know that my stock making has been immeasureably improved. This sounds like the next level.

Carry on.

[slkinsey]

I've experimented with making chicken stock by running all the meat, bones and vegetables through a commercial grinder and then cooking it all substantially below the simmer (at around 80C) overnight.

I don't like to use too many vegetables, and I've found that parsley in particulary can impart too much vegetal flavor if you aren't careful.

[nathanm]

I've experimented with making chicken stock by running all the meat, bones and vegetables through a commercial grinder and then cooking it all substantially below the simmer (at around 80C) overnight.

How did it turn out? Is this an improvement?

[fifi]

. . . . .

I don't like to use too many vegetables, and I've found that parsley in particulary can impart too much vegetal flavor if you aren't careful.

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I agree on the vegetable stuff. I am particularly suspicious of celery leaves. In fact, in some stocks, like the smoked turkey stock I just did, I only add a little onion. It probably won't make any difference in the gumbo but for the soup I am planning, I want a more "purist" stock.

[Malawry]

Does anybody here do a remouillage (sp?) technique? That's the term for when you're done with your stock, you take all the skimmed-out solids and put them in a clean pot. Cover with cold water and bring to the boil. Turn off, strain, and use the liquid as the starter for your next batch of stock. I've seen it done in schools and restaurants, but have never done it at home because I don't really want to store a bunch of remy in my freezer until I run out of stock again. (I make my stocks in a 5gal stockpot, and I usually only cook for 2, so it takes a long time to run out--and I almost always reduce stocks to save freezer space before freezing.) I've never done a side-by-side comparison of stock made with fresh cold water vs. stock made with remy, and I wonder how they compare.

[slkinsey]

I've experimented with making chicken stock by running all the meat, bones and vegetables through a commercial grinder and then cooking it all substantially below the simmer (at around 80C) overnight.

How did it turn out? Is this an improvement?

I was pretty happy with it. The main thing is that by rapidly increasing surface area you get much more efficient extraction of flavors and other things. I could probably go for a shorter period of time at a higher temperature, but it's convenient to leave it steeping overnight. Needless to say, this is one way to get maximum gelatin.

One of the great advantages of this method is that all the fat is liberated and floats to the surface right at the beginning before it even melts along with a prodigious amount of scum, all of which is easily skimmed off.

[balex]

I think there is no need to put a lot of vegetable falvour in the stock since it is easy to add it as desired.

If you want some onion or parsley flavours (I am holding off on using "notes" here) it is really easy to add them in. The key factors for me are

1) the maillard flavours -- white/brown stock

2) ratio of meat to bone.

The italian brodo is almost pure meat (bones are for dogs!), and the trad french stock is almost pure bone. What is interesting about the Ducasse approach is the way he has a number of variants -- the bouillon from a pot au feu, the fond, the jus and so on that lie at various points in the space of possible stocks.

Personally, I didn' have much success with the Ducasse jus, probably because I didn't add enough fat. I think it is the process of almost frying the glace in fat that gives that classic jus taste: it must sizzle to develop those flavours.

[nathanm]

I've experimented with making chicken stock by running all the meat, bones and vegetables through a commercial grinder and then cooking it all substantially below the simmer (at around 80C) overnight.

All the bones? Even the leg and thigh and back? Must be a large mouthed grinder...

Do you do this before roasting or after roasting? I could see a reason for either way...

I don't have a grinder, but I guess I could get a grinder attachment for my 20 quart hobart mixer.... I worry a bit about big chicken bones, but maybe it could take it...

My version of this is that when I make meat jus, I slice the meat very thin with my meat slicer - then brown them in the oven - then simmer. Browns more surface area that way...

[slkinsey]

I've experimented with making chicken stock by running all the meat, bones and vegetables through a commercial grinder and then cooking it all substantially below the simmer (at around 80C) overnight.

All the bones? Even the leg and thigh and back? Must be a large mouthed grinder...

It's pretty decent-sized, yea. Chicken bones (I am usually making a white stock, so nothing is roasted) aren't all that big. I do tend to split the breast bones and backs in half.

[kutsu]

I've made a decent "basic" chicken stock before using a Gordan Ramsay method (brown bones, tomato paste, simmier for 2-3 hours) however, I'd love to make a veal/beef stock.

I have a problem, however. No butcher in a 20 mile radius actually sells veal, let alone sells the veal bones. The closest thing I can get is beef bones.

Is it possible to make any form of usable stock from beef bones, or is veal the only way to go?

[jackal10]

I'd mince the meat, but not the bones. You don't want fine bone particles which might be difficult to remove without clarification (and consequent flavour removal), and also you don't want to promote "bone taint".

You can make perfectly good stock from beef bones, just won't gell as much. Pigeon and duck are also good substitute. You might want to add something more gelatinous, like chicken wings or pork (especially pork skin) for the gelatin.

By the time its cooked and reduced to a demi-glass with the other flavours, vegetables, herbs and Maillard flavours, its hard to tell what the base meat was anyway, providing its fairly neutral.

[kutsu]

I'd mince the meat, but not the bones. You don't want fine bone particles which might be difficult to remove without clarification (and consequent flavour removal), and also you don't want to promote "bone taint".

You can make perfectly good stock from beef bones, just won't gell as much. Pigeon and duck are also good substitute. You might want to add something more gelatinous, like chicken wings or pork (especially pork skin) for the gelatin.

By the time its cooked and reduced to a demi-glass with the other flavours, vegetables, herbs and Maillard flavours, its hard to tell what the base meat was anyway, providing its fairly neutral.

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So beef bones and a pig trotter or something like that would work (beef for flavour, malliard reactions and the trotter for gelatin) and not be horrible tasting? excellent.

I assume that unlike chicken, beef would need a longer time in the pot due to thicker bones etc?

[bleudauvergne]

I think the veg thing really depends on the flavor of the meat. If you have a nice flavorful old hen, for instance, vegetables will only add dimension, you're not going to run any kind of risk of getting a vegetable soup flavored stock. However if you aren't perfectly clear about what you're going to get at the end you're probably better off leaving out the vegs and adding them at the end if you feel they will improve the stock. I think that the addition of the ground meats at the end in clarifying it does do a lot to lift the flavor of a stock quite a bit - Even if I don't plan to serve a stock alone these days I'll take that extra step that Jack describes in his class On Consomme, and clarify it with the egg white and ground meat. I'm glad I have started using that technique for clarifying a broth, it both takes the flavor one step further and makes it crystal clear.

Pig skin does not add any taste if you add it without browning it. It does add a nice quality in terms of texture to the stock.

Another very good way to get gelatin and texture is the veal foot. A pigs foot, however, I think might impart a certain flavor, mainly because pigs feet have a lot of meat that's going to give it a pork taste. The split veal foot, though, won't overpower a stock.

[deltadoc]

I used to make veal stock from veal neck bones. A combination of bone and meat. Then the neck bones became scarce and I tried (reluctantly) using just veal bones. I was surprised that the stock turned out very well.

I brown the bones (or the bones and meat) in a 400 F oven until they are very carmelized but not burned. I usually add a brushing of tomato paste on the bones at the beginning.

I like to remove the bones and use the grease in the roasting pan to brown my mirepoix. I then add it all to the stock pot. I don't mind the grease as it is easily removed from the surface of the stock pot with one of the fine mesh large spoon like devices (of which I have two).

The most important thing is to have the stock just barely bubble, and I let it do this overnight, because, as someone else said, it is very convenient.

I usually add a bouquet garni consisting of whole black peppercorns, a bay leaf, parsley stems, two whole cloves, a whole garlic, and some thyme.

I dont do remouliage but have nothing against it in principle.

I just made a turkey stock after roasting the carcass, legs, wings and neck. I put the mirepoix in right away. Then we de-meated all the bones, and returned the carcass and bones to the roasting pan to roast them to a carmelized state. Then into the stock pot, cold water, and another bouquet garni.

I let it bubble slightly overnight, and then strained the resulting stock and canned it. It came out better than any fowl stock I ever made.

The veal stock usually gets canned, although I like to make a brown sauce (Espagnole Sauce) with some of it, and then I usually take the brown sauce and add more veal stock (and another bouquet garni) and reduce it down to a demi-glace ala Escoffier. The demi-glace gets frozen in individual stainless steel cup size containers.

This is pretty much a very classical method and I know today, that many make demi-glace (basically a 50% reduction) as a half-way sauce to making the stock into a glace de viande (a 90% reduction).

I've made the glace de viande, and while the taste is different it is still tasty.

doc

[twodogs]

I have found that turkey: plain, roasted, and smoked makes three unique and base extractions which may be used as necessary based on application. We use a pressure cooker, come to pressure cook for 45 minutes, let cool naturlly and decrease pressure, strain and apply as necessary.

[Wolfert]

When I plan to reduce stock to a demi glace I never brown the bones. The reason is that when you make reduction sauces, you are reducing to such an extent that there is the possibility of a bitter taste from well-browned meat and bones. On the other hand, I do caramelize the vegetables so that thesir flavor will be strong and the sauce will have good color. Color is also the reason I blacken an onion over flames or under the broiler, a process that will also offset any possible bitterness.

[MobyP]

I have found that turkey: plain, roasted, and smoked makes three unique and base extractions which may be used as necessary based on application.  We use a pressure cooker, come to pressure cook for 45 minutes, let cool naturlly and decrease pressure, strain and apply as necessary.

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Heston Blumenthal uses a huge pressure brat pan which he uses for stocks.

He also has a neat trick for clarification which apparently extracts all the particles, while leaving much more flavour than the usual raft method. He freezes the stock into cubes, and then lets them melt through a coffee filter. Apparently the results are a much fuller tasting clarification.

[peteswanson]

I find the best meat stock is done by not using any veg whatsoever. I take 75% lamb to 25% veal bones, brown them at around 350-375 for an hour (this way it insures that the bones will achieve the Maillard reaction, but will not impart a bitter taste to the finished product, as if you roasted them at a higher temp) add some red wine and a bit of tomato paste and simply let it infuse in the water for about 17 hours at below simmer (don't bring it up to a boil) At this point simply strain it, and reduce it at high heat (the natural sugars infused in the liquid will caramelize giving it the rich color and flavor) Once it's at glace stage cool it down on ice and fridge it.....once cool it should have the consistancy with which you could bounce it off a wall. Tastes like meat jus, not meat soup...