Los Angeles restaurant scene

[lizziee]

hollywood,

I am not being very clear. Fine dining for me is good service and good wine where the emphasis is on the food, wine and service.

[hollywood]

lizziee,

Given that clarification, I'd go with La Cachette, Spago and Yujean Kang if you get him to do a food and wine pairing for you. Another possibility would be to strike up an acquaintance with Robert Simon at Bistro 45 in Pasadena, tell him what you are looking for and see if he can deliver.

[Fastidious Kitty]

Hi everyone, I just registered today. I'll start by saying, I love Bistro Jeanty and recently went to Jeanty at Jacks, which is also wonderful. I don't think the food in LA is up to the same level as San Francisco, but there are some great places in town. I live in Los Angeles, and Angelini Osteria is currently my favorite restaurant. The food is fresh, simple, and delicious, and the staff is very friendly and professional. I'm going to Max's tonight....so I'll let you know.

[mixmaster b]

Hello all-

I am another LA resident new to egullet. I am sad to see that this fascinating discussion about the local restaurant scene has dropped off! Maybe now that the new Top 10 has been published in LA mag, there will be more discourse.

I was raised in NoCal (Berkeley & SF) and lived in NY for 8 years before moving to LA about 4 years ago. I must say I can see merit in the views of both lizziee & hollywood. I think LA has some great places to eat ethnic food of all kinds, and many mid-range places that are more than passable. We can be very proud of our Japanese cuisine, for sure. But I have to agree with lizziee when it comes to the really great restaurants.

My significant other & I only go to high end places on special occasions, and have not had the diverse, global experiences you all have been discussing. But when I lived in NY, and it was time for a big, fancy dinner out, there were always a plethora of options that did not disappoint. Perhaps it is the choices I've made since I've been here, but I have been let down by all of the "best" places here. (Most recent was an unimpressive meal at Valentino made worse by a waiter who was obviously ready for us to leave so he could end his shift. Other let-downs have been the now defunct Citrus, inconsistent and often boring Jozu, inconsistent Matsuhisa, Spago BH & Chinois--maybe I expected too much.)

Thinking that perhaps the culinary genius in LA could be found in hipper, trendier places, we tried Jar, Linq, Little Door, Reign, Mr Chow, Eurochow, Les Deux Cafes, and Falcon, and found them all very sceney and totally lacking in any inspiration in the food department (some were just plain awful). Moomba, on the other hand, has actually turned out very well-prepared, interesting, and delicious meals on several occasions.

I have had a few outstanding meals at Trouquet in the super-plastic South Coast Plaza--a tasting menu was particularly good. We went to Cienega once before it closed, and were quite happy with that experience. Zax has also provided several very good (though more casual) experiences. All of these places were kind of uncool, not particularly well decorated, and lacking in celebrities, but the food, wine, and service were top-notch. (We need more like this!)

I suspect that when Angelenos go for a big night out, they want to see stars in a fancy room, and maybe eat something with the sauce on the side. Maybe that is why this town has driven away some talent. And maybe a good reason to focus on the wide variety of off-the beaten-path places that hollywood recommends.

In any event, I would be very curious to hear what you all thought of LA Mag's most recent darlings.

Thanks!

[Beachfan]

Welcome to the california board mixmaster b!

I tend to agree with your assessment. Sorry that you've had inconsistency at Spago BH and Chinois; those are the two that I rely on for excellence in LA.

Keep on postin'!

[lizziee]

Welcome mixmaster b,

First as to your comments re Moomba. In Thursday's LA Times, it was reported that Moomba has filed for Chapter 11. According to owner Jeff Gossett,"We were inundated with pre-opening construction costs and in order to relieve the pressure and stress from the debt, we filed.... We're still here doing great things, culinary wise, and have lots of interesting entertainment.... We have, however, noted a sharp falloff in the crowds and star wattage in recent months."

I have not eaten at Moomba and can't comment on its scene or its food.

LA Magazine's list of top ten newcomers is indicative of the restaurant scene in Los Angeles; there is only one fine dining establishment listed and that is Alex in the space once occupied by Citrus. We have eaten at Alex and it is a serious restaurant with an ambitious menu. I have not eaten at the other nine and it would be unfair to comment extensively. However, from the descriptions they are not fine dining restaurants.

Cobras and Matadors (this is in the space once occupied by Boxer) is a tapas restaurant. The description says it all;"The waiter with the shaved head brings the little platters, the young women in J.Lo jeans eat up the food, the busboy with the pierced lip lays a sheet of clean butcher paper over the table."

Green Village sounds like a wonderful, casual restaurant in a San Gabriel Shopping Mall with decor that lets you know you are in "a better type of Chinese restaurant."

The Gutter Cafe is a "sort of roadhouse" with "practically no budget at all." "The barroom jukebox plays a little fiddle-riffed, steel-picked country and western number" and you can eat homemade ketchup, mustard, Russian dressing on your sandwiches.

Mastro's Steakhouse (now in the building which was first the Bistro and then Chasen's) is as the name implies, a steak house. At Mastro's, "The showstopper is the shrimp cocktail served in a cloud of dry ice.

Max in Sherman Oaks is owned by Filipino-born Andre Guerrero. The cusine is fusion with Hawkers chicken (traditionally served on street corners) and Inihaw, grilled pork served with vinegar and garlic.

Angelini Osteria is an osteria. The chef, Gino Angelini, was the chef at Brentwood's Vicenti. We had mixed feelings about his cuisine - some highs, but also a lot of lows. This new restaurant is "impossibly tight" with "the noise from the closely packed tables" rising markedly. The reviewer does note that the " food represents Italian style at its very best."

My husband and son have eaten at Union (this was first Sedlar's restaurants Bikini and Abiquiu and then Rix). Their general comment is that this is mediocre to good food ("corn chowder with littleneck clams and Yukon potatoes, cornmeal dusted Idaho trout with Romano beans and hazelnut brown butter, and Lake Superior whitefish with vegetable couscous") in a modern room with hip service.

G. Garvin's is a small 40 seat restaurant with what is described as California eclectic cuisine. He was the opening chef at Reign, a southern style restaurant. The only nod to southern cuisine in his current menu are the baby back ribs as an appetizer. Other items on the menu are tuna tartar, salmon tartar, roasted Colorado rack of lamb, sauteed Atlantic salmon, roasted half chicken - safe, good food in nice surroundings with good service.

Zucca, Splichal's latest restaurant, is essentially Italian country cooking. "Splichal varies the tone from what he has previously attempted. Rather than the symphonic complexities he is capable of creating at Patina, this is simpler: a sonatina. But he plays it like Brendel on the Bosendorfer grand."

My editorial comment, at this point, is what happened to the symphony in LA cuisine. We are getting a lot of sonatinas, a lot of fusion, a lot of ethnic, but fine dining - no!

I have nothing against that great neighborhood restaurant that serves good, sometimes wonderful food in casual surroundings. But there are so few fine dining establishments of merit in Los Angeles that I have to wait for trips to New York, San Fransisco/Napa, France to experience that level of cuisine. That said, there are a couple of places of merit. Spago Beverly Hills, if you order their tasting menu, can be wonderful. Patina tries very hard and often succeeds in a fine dining experience. Aubergine in Newport Beach has a fantastic tasting menu with professional service in a French country house setting. Alex is an up and comer that is truly trying to revitalize the fine dining scene. Water Grill, downtown, does remarkable things with fish. Ginza Sushi-ko used to be the finest Japanese restaurant I have ever been to, but you have to mortgage your house and sell your car to eat there. I haven't been to L'Orangerie for 2 years and as they have just lost their chef, I don't know what to expect. I agree with mixmaster b, that where once Valentino was extraordinary, it is now only ordinary. Melisse has such poor service, sometimes 45 minutes between courses, that it is hard to enjoy the meal.

I find it sad that LA in the late 80's was the home of many great restaurants. We lost them - chefs just got too weary of the star gazers and the skinny stars themselves.

[hollywood]

I find it sad that LA in the late 80's was the home of many great restaurants. We lost them - chefs just got too weary of the star gazers and the skinny stars themselves.

lizziee,

Hello again. I have no way of knowing if you are correct as to why chefs have left our town. Could it just be economics? How many families (fragmented tho they may be) can afford to eat at such fine dining spaces often enough to keep the establishments solvent? Let's face it, Paris gets customers from the entire world to draw upon. Ditto New York. SF & Napa are loaded with dinks. These are folks who can afford frequent fine dining. I suspect there was a financial shakeout and we adjusted the number of fine dining chefs/spots to fit our pocketbooks. It might seem more tragic to say the chefs wearied of this or that, but there is the obnoxious bottom line to contend with.

[Fat Guy]

There are two restaurants in the Los Angeles area that receive just about zero attention yet would in my opinion easily earn three New York Times stars and could, if pushed, turn out a four star meal. They are: Napa Rose at Disney's Grand Californian Hotel, and Aqua at the St. Regis Monarch Beach Resort & Spa. Any of you Angelinos been to either?

[tsquare]

I was visiting the area last September (from Seattle) and had lunch at the St. Regis. I don't recall if it was Aqua - or another dining room. Highlight of my trip. Excellent lobster BLT as I recall, and some swoony chocolate dessert. The place made me wish I was rich enough to stay, or at least to buy some of the furniture. Gorgeous, and welcoming - and I'm no rock star or fancy dresser. I'll pass the recommendations on to my family in Orange County!

[Beachfan]

I had an excellent dinner at Aqua at the St.Regis, although at first they said they allowed corkage, and then they acted surprised when I brought it, and then wanted to charge me $45. I protested, and it was lowered to $25.

Normally I wouldn't protest any corkage fee (I've paid the $75 at JG NY) but it was the attitude like they were doing me a favor after I had already inquired that put me off.

However, the meal was excellent. Unfortunately I don't remember what it was (other than the appetizer included fois gras). I had trepidation because the time I ate at Aqua at the Bellagio was very disappointing for the price.

My wife had a special vegetarian meal that she liked very much. Something with exotic mushrooms.

The place I thought was phenomenal, but have only been there once, was Encore, in the LA St. Regis. Similar to Spago Beverly Hill, but a little lighter.

Anyone else been there?

[lizziee]

There is one huge problem with LA that I should mention. Distances from one area to another can be like driving from one state to another in another part of the country. For example, we went to Aubergine 2 weeks ago. It took us 1 hour and 40 minutes to get there from West Los Angeles. The food was sublime and the service extraordinary, but it was a hassle. tsquare mention Aubergine to your family; I think it was even worth the drive.

Fat Guy, when you mention Orange County restaurants (Aqua and Napa Rose), it is driving time that make it so difficult. I think that is one reason for the proliferation of neighborhood restaurants.

Beachfan, does the St Regis have any special deals if you eat at Aqua and then stay there as well?

Hollywood, hello again as well. Those chefs that I have spoken to continually cite the lack of knowledgeable diners who are willing to try new things and allow a chef to be creative that contributed to them leaving Los Angeles. Saying that, I agree that the economic downturn of the 90's contributed to the dearth.

It will be interesting to see what happens when Alain Giraud from Citrus opens his new restaurant. It will definitely strive to be fine dining with a wine list that is suppose to be extraordinary. Also, I hope chefs like Alex are willing to take a chance and try to revitalize LA to be a destination restaurant city.

[Beachfan]

Beachfan, does the St Regis have any special deals if you eat at Aqua and then stay there as well?

Not that I'm aware of. There may be other specials. I got an email offer from them that I deleted without reading because I'm not inclined to go back. (It's not on the beach in spite of what they say).

[mixmaster b]

Thanks for the welcome!

And thanks for the low-down on so many of these spots. I will try Alex the first chance I get, and I will also go back to Spago & Chinois.

I have to mention that Cobras and Matadors is a great spot. Certainly not fine dining, but VERY good food--maybe the best lentils I've ever had. They have a BYO policy, and there is a small (overpriced--but still a bargain compared to restaurant prices) Spanish wine store next door. If you plan to go, make a reservation and go on the early side--around 7, and you will avoid most of the scene. The room is small but romantic in a rustic, casual sort of way.

Too bad about Moomba's chapter 11. They seem to do a great business on the club/bar/lounge side, and hopefully they will pull through. I would be very curious to hear what you all think of the food if you ever go. I have been consistently pleased with the quality; I think the chef has some talent. Again, eating a bit on the early side will alleviate most of the trendoid problems. Not fine dining, exactly, but still on the fancy side.

Troquet, in Costa Mesa, is owned by Tim and Liza Goodell of Aubergine. I have not had the chance to go to Aubergine, but I can really recommend Troquet. Though the room is not grand, the food and service are excellent. The best meal I had there was a tastingmenu with paired wines, and it truly made me think I was in NYC, not an OC mall! Fat Guy, this would be another great spot for your Orange County friends/family to check out, and liziee, a bit closer to you, perhaps, than Aubergine.

How about Michael’s in SM? Is it worthwhile in terms of cal-cuisine history? Or just a waste?

Beachfan I would love to hear a bit more about the ethnic spots you mentioned. I love Zankou Chicken & Bombay Grill, and have had a good meal at Guelagetza, but I am not familiar with the other spots you mentioned. (Except for Phillipe's, where I have not been.) I am in the West Hollywood area, and am always on the lookout for places nearby.

Do you like Jitlada? It is my favorite Thai.

Has anyone been to Mori Sushi on Pico? It is OUTSTANDING. The best I have had here (though I have not been to Ginza Suhsiko--not enough equity in my house yet to take the necessary 2nd mortgage). The fish is amazing and creatively presented. And the fresh wasabi is a must.

[Beachfan]

Beachfan I would love to hear a bit more about the ethnic spots you mentioned.

I think you might mean Hollywood; I only know a couple of ethnic spots (ChanDara for Thai, and a Malaysian restuarant (Penang?) in Alhambra).

[hollywood]

Beachfan I would love to hear a bit more about the ethnic spots you mentioned.  I love Zankou Chicken & Bombay Grill, and have had a good meal at Guelagetza, but I am not familiar with the other spots you mentioned. (Except for Phillipe's, where I have not been.)  I am in the West Hollywood area, and am always on the lookout for places nearby.

Do you like Jitlada?  It is my favorite Thai.

Has anyone been to Mori Sushi on Pico?  It is OUTSTANDING.  The best I have had here (though I have not been to Ginza Suhsiko--not enough equity in my house yet to take the necessary 2nd mortgage).  The fish is amazing and creatively presented.  And the fresh wasabi is a must.

mixmaster B,

If ethnic food intrigues you, I suggest picking up a copy of Gold's Counter Intelligence and reading his bits in L.A. Weekly. In the latter, he and Huneven regularly list favorites around town, many of which are ethnic. Jitlada is OK. However, if you go over to the 5100 block of Hollywood Bl., you'll find Sanamluang Cafe, Ruen Pair, Palms Thai and Kruang Tedd among others.

I like Mori Sushi a lot but it is expensive. For bargains, I find my self returning to Hide on Sawtelle altho others like Sushi Sasabune in the same area. If you are interested in Ginza SushiKo, be aware that it will soon close shop here and relocate to Manhattan where there is more money to be had.

[lizziee]

hollywood and mixmaster b,

First of all, it is so great to have a California board that is posting! Welcome again to all.

Mori sushi is excellent and they are one of the few places that uses fresh wasabi. We went to Sushi Sasabune last Monday night and it was awful. Every roll and every piece of sushi was mostly warm rice that immeditaely fell a apart. After about 45 minutes of food being thrown at you, we left and went to Hamasuku for some decent sushi. Hide is an old favorite - not expensive, good fish. I started going there when they were next to the lawnmower shop, years ago, before they moved down the block.

Aubergine is Liza and Tim Goodell's high end restaurant. It is definitely a destination restaurant - the tasting menu is wonderful and changes nightly.

Michael's has gone through numerous chef changes. We had been going there since they first opened. Unfortunately, the cuisine, at the moment, does not match the ambience. The outside patio area is probably one of the prettiest, most serene places to dine in Los Angeles. We used to go fairly often, but with the numerous changes in the kitchen, we have not been back in months. Interesting to note, Sang, who was the chef at Michael's, is now the "chef" at a small neighborhood bar on Montana in Santa Monica called My Father's Office. Beer, hamburgers, sweet potato fries. We have not been as yet, but everyone who has been loves it. Sang refuses to change how his burgers are served - "eat them my way, fat and all or go down the block."

Places we have been to in the West Hollywood/Beverly Hills area that we have enjoyed are Campanile, Lucques and Mako. Mako was the chef at Chinois, but he is not doing Chinois/Puck food. It is definitely Asian fusion, but with more of a French flair. (Mako can be very good, but there are definitely some real lows). Campanile is Mediterranean cuisine - always good, dependable ingredient-driven food. I have not been to Lucques in quite a while so I can't give an accurate up date.

mixmaster B, try Spago again, but be sure to ask for a tasting menu. We have been there when they have done over 200 covers in a night and maybe do only 12 tasting menus. They love to have people come in who really like to dine and they make an all-out effort. Also, we like to sit on the patio; it is quieter, not as rushed, not the scene and makes for a dining experience instead of a celebrity watching gig.

[Beachfan]

For bargains, I find my self returning to Hide on Sawtelle altho others like Sushi Sasabune in the same area.

I tried Hide Sushi today. On an impulse, I got the Tempura/Teriyaki lunch special along with several a la carte orders. Very rare for me to do that, I'm pretty much a straight sahsimi/sushi guy.

It was the worst chicken teriyaki I had ever had. The chicken used for the teriyaki beat out one unfortunate lunch in Guatemala for the worst ever. All fat and gristle. The tempura was subpar as well.

I wasn't wild about the scallop/giant clam appetizer that was labeled "dynamite".The saba sushi was nice as was the gourd roll, the albacore only ok.

I had been preparing for a full excursion, but I cut my losses and split.

PS The place was packed and there was a line, so I was doubley surprised.

[Michael Laiskonis]

I would be interested in hearing the full story of Ludovic Lefevre's departure from L'Orangerie if any one knows... and what is the lowdown on any of Fred Eric's places? Thanks!

[hollywood]

It was the worst chicken teriyaki I had ever had.  The chicken used for the teriyaki beat out one unfortunate lunch in Guatemala for the worst ever.  All fat and gristle.  The tempura was subpar as well.

PS The place was packed and there was a line, so I was doubley surprised.

Just sit at the bar and order sushi, sushi, sushi. The line is a good thing to the extent it moves fairly rapidly and discourages others from coming. Nonetheless, it's always been crowded when I've gone.

[mixmaster b]

Beachfan I would love to hear a bit more about the ethnic spots you mentioned.

I think you might mean Hollywood

Beachfan & Hollywood-

Please excuse my lack of posting etiquette! My apologies for the mix up...

Thanks for the Thai recommendations, Hollywood. I will definitely do some exploring. I do have Counter Intelligence and like it very much, though sometimes have a hard time figuring out where to begin--so many intriguing options!

Lizziee, I will go back to Spago for sure. Thanks for the tasting menu advice.

I will let you all know how it goes, but it might take me a while to get out and about. I have been very inspired by all the posts on the cooking board, and have found myself wanting to spend time in my own kitchen lately!

[hollywood]

I do have Counter Intelligence and like it very much, though sometimes have a hard time figuring out where to begin--so many intriguing options!

One of the downsides of Counter Intelligence is that it lacks a geographic index. If you go to chowhound.com, somewhere on their crowded homepage you'll find such an index. Worth printing out. Saves time.

[R.G. Diamond]

I am new to this board too, and may have an interesting perspective because I live both in San Francisco and L.A....

There is no question in my mind that the food in S.F. is better, and generally a better value. S.F. has both the great ethnic dives and the destination restaurants. L.A. has great dives too, but many of them are in such far-flung neighborhoods that it's hard to get it up for the drive. S.F.'s restaurants are generally not polluted by having to be a "scene." This is the great undoer of L.A. restaurants, as you can't blame the management for wanting to encourage people from hanging at the bar, three-deep, hoping to pick up an implanted 21-year-old. But it doesn't improve the food.

I think we are having a food slump in L.A.

Some of the old warhorses are starting to run out of steam. Finally, in all these years, had my first mildly disapointing meal at Chinois. That was a blow. Conversely, Spago is consistently good, with good service (no attitude), and it's not to be overlooked: if there is a good ingredient on the West Coast, Wolfgang will get it first. La Cachette is tasty but uninspired and seems to be given over to an elderly clientele. I agree that Drago is a joke -- they've stopped trying. They should close. Valentino was never what it was supposed to have been. Campanile can occasionally have an off night, and service has never been their strong suit, but it still hits more than it misses. Patina, even before the chef left, was bland and dull and made us wait 45 minutes for our reserved table with no comps -- not even bar drinks! Rockenwagner is still good.

As to the newer spots, Alex hasn't quite hit its stride, but we enjoyed our dinner there. Angelino is DELICIOUS! Tastes like Italy. Simple, limited menu, but they do everything very well (no wonder it's packed). What a pleasant surprise. Hope the chef doesn't leave.

I could go on... and probably will later. But if it's a Fine Dining Experience you want... L.A. is running on fumes. You know it's a problem when someone comes to you with an expense account and says, "Where do you want you go?" and you can't get excited.

R.G.

[Beachfan]

I am new to this board too, and may have an interesting perspective because I live both in San Francisco and L.A....

R.G.

Welcome. Sounds like a great life!

I'm hoping to get some people to try and post Encore. I thought it was absolutely outstanding the three times I've been there. They get overlooked because they are at a hotel (St. Regis), but I'd like to hear other thoughts!

Keep on postin'!

[MHesse]

I just returned from a vacation in LA. I stayed in Venice, so most of my eating took place there with several side trips.

Here's a number of places I visited:

Chinois (Main Street, Venice). An excellent meal from start to finish. Good service, wonderful apps, entrees and desserts. Two selections of each enough for 3 people. Interesting decor, but crowded room discouraged walking around to see it all.

La Veracchia (also Main St). About a block north and across the street from Chinois. Good Italian restaurant, though not the place one would go for a special meal. Packed with patrons early Sat night.

The Omellette House on Main. Very nice lunch had there. I had a tuna/raisin sandwich that was very tasty.

Lilly's (Abbott Kinney, Venice). I always enjoy my meals at this French restaurant. This visit was another good experience. Red snapper special was very good. Had a '98 Cab by the glass. Love their profiteroles.

La Cabana (Rose and Lincoln, Venice). My friend thinks this is a great Mexican restaurant (foodwise). It was good, the tortillas were fresh, and the margaritas cold. We were there for lunch. It's open till 3am.

Dukes. (Sunset Blvd, Hollywood). Touristy breakfast place. Good fresh grapefruit juice. Good cinnamon swirl french toast.

Dukes (PCH, Malibu). Two places named Dukes in one day. This one on the beach side of the highway. Only a very small outdoor area, unlike Gladstones, but a nice indoor area around the bar with the Pacific Ocean right outside the window. Just there for drinks and apps, but the menu looked okay. And we got right in at 2pm on Sunday with no wait; at Gladstones we would have waited a while for an outside table.

ZaZen (Washington St, Venice). Outdoor tables, so we could bring Luigi the bulldog - he could give Momo some competition. Interesting looking menu, but disappointing food.

A great sushi place in the valley. Will need to get back to you with the name.

We passed a place called "The Inn of the Seventh Ray" on Topanga Canyon Road. My friend says it's a romantic spot and very good. I'd like to try it next time. Opinions?

--mh

[cabrales]

The chef from L'Orangerie has just left - another LA deserter.

lizziee -- Do you know what Ludovic Lefevre might have left L'Orangerie for?  

I'd appreciate any updates on the question above.