Personal Taste

[Fat Guy]

What I'm getting at is that temperature isn't the only concern. All this talk of the best state of doneness for a steak assumes high-temperature grilling or a similar method. It may be that the method, more than the temperature, is the cause of the dryness in well-done meat. I wonder if you could Cry-O-Vac a steak and bring it up to 165 degrees in a water bath and then put a char on the outside with a blowtorch and get it to taste pretty good. In any event, what I'm saying on this particular point is that when faced with a demand for well-done steak my first move as a chef would be to try to figure out a way to cook it so it tastes good.

[Jaymes]

And furthermore, the chef does not "exist to serve you."  That is ludicrous.  

If you wish to have a chef who "exists to serve you," you are perfectly free to hire one.  Put him on salary, tell him what you like and do not like and advise him that he serves at the pleasure of you.

But to believe that you can order business owners around in order to satisfy your every whim is unbelievably arrogant.

I just hope that in another life, you come back as a business owner with nothing but customers like yourself.

Spoken like a true primadonna.

Thank you for the "prima donna" compliment. I should be so lucky.

The thing is, in our free society, even the "haughtiest of chefs" has the right to open a business and offer for sale whatsoever products he/she chooses to offer.

And you (i.e. the public) have the right to go elsewhere if you are not pleased.

I will not Plotnickitize this argument by continuing to restate my position over and over and over.

So, this is probably pretty much it for me.

It's obvious you have some sort of chip on your shoulder.

I can only suggest to you that you open your OWN restaurant and run it as you see fit, bowing and scraping and acquiescing to all who come in your door, omitting the peppers in the Stuffed Peppers, the garlic in the Scampi, cooking the steaks to shoe leather, and giving into whatever other whim crosses the minds of your customers. That is your right.

And folks can come on eGullet and savage your choices. That is their right.

That's the American way, you see.

[macrosan]

What I'm getting at is that temperature isn't the only concern. All this talk of the best state of doneness for a steak assumes high-temperature grilling or a similar method. It may be that the method, more than the temperature, is the cause of the dryness in well-done meat. I wonder if you could Cry-O-Vac a steak and bring it up to 165 degrees in a water bath and then put a char on the outside with a blowtorch and get it to taste pretty good. In any event, what I'm saying on this particular point is that when faced with a demand for well-done steak my first move as a chef would be to try to figure out a way to cook it so it tastes good.

A popular dish at many kosher restaurants is fried steak, which resolves exactly these problems. The steak is always cut thin and fried quickly, and it get to a high temperature and it's never dry.

[Jonathan Day]

I haven't experienced a U.K. chef or top captain coming out to the table and chatting about the evenings menu. But it happens quite often in NYC at certain places and it's always available at a haute cuisine restaurants in France. Could this be about British rigidity? One of my favorite topics. Where is Wilfrid when we need him? Maybe Gavin can sit in for him today?

It does happen here, but as in many areas of life in Britain you have to break the ice in the appropriate manner. Many customers here would be surprised and a bit upset if a waiter, unsolicited, started discussing the food and wine with them, just as they would if a party at the next table tried to engage them in conversation. I know people who have expressed concern that a knowledgeable sommelier tried to discuss their wine choices with them. To me this the height of silliness -- there is so much to learn from a sommelier who knows his wines and is prepared to share some of that knowledge. But there you are.

(A frequent conversation starter at a dinner party here is to describe one's recent visit to New York, or Florida, or somewhere in the US, and a waiter who came up to the table and said, "Hello, I'm ____ and I will be your server this evening." How American. How familiar. Like house prices, this is one of those topics that won't go away no matter how tired it gets.)

As you observe, conversations with waiters (and with people at neighbouring tables) seem to start easily enough in New York. In France, waiters and sommeliers are almost always happy to discuss the food and wine and to share their knowledge. They are proud of their métier. This sort of pride may be harder to find in the UK because of class consciousness (table waiting as akin to domestic service, trade vs professions, limited scope for what constitutes "professions", etc.). But this is ebbing in an increasingly egalitarian society.

In Britain it's important to distinguish London from the rest of the country: London is crowded and filled with tourists, and there is more of a tendency to try to isolate oneself.

However in most cases it isn't that difficult to get a knowledgeable captain or sommelier to discuss the menu, if you take the first step. It helps to do this in a quiet and less-than-assertive manner.

In London, the waiters and captains at Chez Bruce share the owner's passion for food and wine and seem very knowledgeable about the cuisine and prepared to discuss it. Same for the Waterside Inn, though many of the staff there are French. Marcus Wareing at Petrus regularly visits tables, especially at lunch, though as noted elsewhere I wish he would spend his time fixing problems in the kitchen. With some embarrassment I have to admit that I haven't yet been to St John. I would think the Chef's Table at Gordon Ramsay would be a great place for this sort of discussion, but it's reserved months in advance.

(I will be off eGullet for the remainder of the week owing to travel).

[Steve Plotnicki]

Fat Guy - Well of course context and cut is everything. Meats like briskets are better cooked through. You could serve a brisket grilled and rare and it would suck because you would be chewing until Tisha B'av. And it would probably be the same if you vacuum sealed it and poached it. Each piece of meat has a *proper* way to cook it. But once again, aren't chefs expert in how things should be cooked and shouldn't we rely on their expertise? Of course not every chef is competent but, in the types of higher end restaurants that this applies to, shouldn't that be the case? But theoretically, if a chef could figure out how to cook a steak well and make it juicy and flavorful, why not?

Jaymes - First I get an "ism" and then I get a "tize." Soon I will have my own dialect .

Macrosan - I've never seen a fried steak at a kosher restaurant. What are you talking about? Do you mean breaded and fried, deep fried or just sauteed in a pan? Or is it just another thing the Brits fry?

JD - How about in places like Le Gavroche or Tante Clare etc. Those would seem like the types of chefs who would both have competent staff to chat with the guests about the food as well as doing it themselves?

[Adam Balic]

What I'm getting at is that temperature isn't the only concern. All this talk of the best state of doneness for a steak assumes high-temperature grilling or a similar method. It may be that the method, more than the temperature, is the cause of the dryness in well-done meat. I wonder if you could Cry-O-Vac a steak and bring it up to 165 degrees in a water bath and then put a char on the outside with a blowtorch and get it to taste pretty good. In any event, what I'm saying on this particular point is that when faced with a demand for well-done steak my first move as a chef would be to try to figure out a way to cook it so it tastes good.

Could you "confit" a cut of beef and cut it into steaks and finish it in the pan, so that it would be 1). Well done 2) Tender? Have done this with a pork shoulder (very good) and loin (bit dry).

[jaybee]

As for myself, I don't go to restaurants to worship the food or the cook. I go to have a pleasant meal, sometimes if I'm lucky an astounding meal, and to sample foods that I wouldn't or couldn't cook for myself. All the rest is basically nonsense.

Don't we have a case of apples and oranges here? Restaurants where the chef creates dishes of his making are places I go to taste what the chef makes. I wouldn't tell Bouloud to put more lime juice in his sauce or less herbs on his lamb. Not would I order a steak in his place. My take on Jaymes P.O.V. is that when you go to a place the serves "cuisine" as opposed to food, you should expect to eat the food as they prepare it.

If you have dietary needs (no salt, use oil instead of butter), you have every right to ask for that.

When you go to a steak house, you go because they have great cuts of meat, aged well. You expect to be able to order it to the degree of doneness that pleases you. I often eat with someone who prefers "well-done" meat. Over the years, he has moved from well done to medium rare when we grill really good steaks, or when we order meat in a good steak house. His taste has evolved to appreciate that well done cooks all the juice and flavor out of a great steak. My wife dislikes charred food, and always asks if something is charred befoe ordering it. If the answer is yes, she asks if it can be cooked without charring. Often they say yes and accomodate her. If they say no, she orders something else.

There will always be people out there who don't know what good is. Some, when they discover what good is, are grateful for the lesson. Others are defensive and closed- minded and resent anyone who tries to "teach" them. They are best left in ignorance.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Isn't the point of a confit to steep in it's own fat? Loins are lean. They should be brined, not confited.

[Adam Balic]

Isn't the point of a confit to steep in it's own fat? Loins are lean. They should be brined, not confited.

I think that the original point of confit was to preserve meat, so you would use fat from that animal that you had killed to get the meat. I was thinking more of a modern modification, long, low temperature cooking, completely immersed in olive oil. Have done this with venison (is a very cheap meat in Edinburgh, I was given a large amount of it). If you brined beef, wouldn't you get salt-beef, which is a totally different thing to steak? The idea of the modified confit was to get well done steak, that was still tender and not a compete waste of time.

[Fat Guy]

My take on Jaymes P.O.V. is that when you go to a place the serves "cuisine" as opposed to food, you should expect to eat the food as they prepare it.

If you have dietary needs (no salt, use oil instead of butter), you have every right to ask for that.

What is the reasoning behind this distinction?

[Steve Plotnicki]

Adam - Well it's about preserving it AND keeping it moist. I wonder if brining makes meat last much longer. Fat Guy or anybody else, how long does a corned beef or pastrami last after they are brined/cured/smoked?

[Fat Guy]

Beats me. Too many factors: How heavily it's cured, how it's packaged after curing, what temperature it's stored at. It's definitely the case, however, that a lot of preservation methods that made food taste like crap are now used in milder doses to make food taste good -- but they no longer function particularly well as preservation methods at those levels.

[jaybee]

QUOTE (jaybee @ Jul 29 2002, 08:00 AM)

My take on Jaymes P.O.V. is that when you go to a place the serves "cuisine" as opposed to food, you should expect to eat the food as they prepare it.

If you have dietary needs (no salt, use oil instead of butter), you have every right to ask for that.

What is the reasoning behind this distinction?

[lizziee]

I am not sure how this fits, but it seems apropos. Last night on Larry King when asked what is wrong with Network News, Andy Rooney said,"Network News is giving the American public what they want to hear instead of what they ought to know."

[Fat Guy]

What I mean is that "dietary needs" are a matter of health, not taste.  So a diner should never feel inhibited from asking (even) Joel Robuchon to accomodate them.  But to impose one's culinary preferences on the way a chef cooks a particular dish is, well, kind of silly.

Nonsense. Except in the most extreme cases, dietary restrictions are a matter of preference. It's just not culinary preference. Are you seriously telling me that if someone decides to go on Weight Watchers in order to fit into a particular gown for an upcoming formal event, that entitles the neurotic individual in question to hide behind claims of "health" and gives carte blanche to be a difficult customer, whereas somebody who genuinely thinks oil tastes better than butter should just sit there and shut up?

[Wilfrid]

Adam - Well it's about preserving it AND keeping it moist. I wonder if brining makes meat last much longer.

Yes, that was the original purpose of brining.

[jaybee]

Nonsense. Except in the most extreme cases, dietary restrictions are a matter of preference.

Perhaps I failed to adequately define the word "dietary," which was meant to apply to allergies and specific health hazzards, such as high salt content for people with high blood pressure. That's all I meant. In some cases, they cannot be accomodated with a particular dish, so they need to change their order.

from The Fourth Star by Leslie Brenner:  

"Right now, continues Boulud, "we stay with the ballontine of foie gras with hazelnuts; it's toasted hazelnuts, which I grind into almost a powder, and they're seasoned with toasted ginger, cardamon, a little bit of allspice to it,  and then it's served with a rhubarb also, poached in a very light broth, like a sauce gastrique of vinegar and sugar, so it's pickled lightly. But a little sweet."

"And if they're allergic to nuts?" asks a captain.

"If they're allergic to nuts," says Boulud, "they can't have it."

I can imagine a customer asking, "could you make that for me but leave out the hazelnuts?"

[Jinmyo]

from The Fourth Star by Leslie Brenner:  

"Right now, continues Boulud, "we stay with the ballontine of foie gras with hazelnuts; it's toasted hazelnuts, which I grind into almost a powder, and they're seasoned with toasted ginger, cardamon, a little bit of allspice to it,  and then it's served with a rhubarb also, poached in a very light broth, like a sauce gastrique of vinegar and sugar, so it's pickled lightly. But a little sweet."

"And if they're allergic to nuts?" asks a captain.

"If they're allergic to nuts," says Boulud, "they can't have it."

I can imagine a customer asking, "could you make that for me but leave out the hazelnuts?"

I can but I cannot imagine the seasoning being entirely redone for one customer. And the loss of the hazelnut profile would probably make the rest of the dish meaningless.

[Jaymes]

My take on Jaymes P.O.V. is that when you go to a place the serves "cuisine" as opposed to food, you should expect to eat the food as they prepare it.

And I guess that is true...

I hadn't really considered it that way but, yes, I have been thinking of this thread in regards to a fine chef and his/her creations...

...as opposed to the entirely different (and time-honored and appropriate) custom of hollering instructions back to the short-order cook.

[Fat Guy]

Nonsense. Except in the most extreme cases, dietary restrictions are a matter of preference.

Perhaps I failed to adequately define the word "dietary," which was meant to apply to allergies and specific health hazzards, such as high salt content for people with high blood pressure. That's all I meant. In some cases, they cannot be accomodated with a particular dish, so they need to change their order.

I still don't get why so many gourmets are willing to excoriate those who would ask for a well-done steak but will roll over and play dead as soon as someone mentions that they have high blood pressure. I don't care what your blood pressure is, one restaurant meal isn't going to kill you. Why isn't it the responsibility of the person with high blood pressure to reduce salt intake for a couple of days before and after the meal, so as to be able to enjoy the chef's creations? Why does the allergy sufferer get special dispensation to alter dishes, instead of being told just to order something else? It still seems to me that it's entirely within the "rights" of the business owner to refuse such requests. If you need to stick to a diet, and the restaurant doesn't serve food appropriate to that diet, the chef can say tough luck. Is the distinction you're drawing one of responsibility? In other words, are you saying that people can't help having high blood pressure but can help liking well-done steak? Surely you'd agree that many health problems are self-imposed and the result of lifestyle choices.

[LaNiña]

Sure, many health problems are self-imposed, but some are not. If someone eats at restaurants frequently, and for example high blood pressure is a problem, they might have no choice but to reduce their salt intake on a regular basis. Of course the restaurant doesn't *have* to accomodate them, but if they want to keep a customer coming back, that's what they'll do. And most do whatever they can to accomodate a customer because that's what they're there for - to get and retain business, in order to make money.

[Fat Guy]

I agree. My objection is to the categorical distinction between health-diet restrictions and restrictions based on taste-preference.

[LaNiña]

I agree. My objection is to the categorical distinction between health-diet restrictions and restrictions based on taste-preference.

Ah, understood.

[Wilfrid]

People like their food done different ways. Restaurants can comply, or not.

I thought we were discussing something "meatier", but for the life of me I can't remember what it was.

[jaybee]

I still don't get why so many gourmets are willing to excoriate those who would ask for a well-done steak but will roll over and play dead as soon as someone mentions that they have high blood pressure.

De Nile is not just a river in Egypt, FG. Let me hear how you sing that tune after your first bypass or stroke (may it never happen to you).

It still seems to me that it's entirely within the "rights" of the business owner to refuse such requests.

No argument from me there. If that's what you thought I was saying, I was not. I'm no fascist.