Flour Quality

[doronin]

Are there any general recommendations of how to determine the flour quality?

Let's say I'm looking for a flour that can make well extensible dough - what should I look on: brands, winter/spring/red/white kinds of wheat, color, smell, whatever else?

[jackal10]

This is a large subject, but also one that is largely irrelevant.

Flour is complex, and many parameters can be measured.

Standard methods are given here: http://www.icc.or.at/methods3.php

Usually in US and UK protein content (actully nitrogen content as an analog) is quoted. This is in turn an approximation for gluten content in white flours, and so flours are classified as hard/bread flour, or all purpose or soft/cake flour. However protein measurements are different in higher extraction or whole wheat flours, as the outer parts of the grain also contain protein. It doesn't tell you about the gluten composition, such as the ratio of gliadins to glutenin

In France and Germany mineral content (measured by the ash left after combustion at 500C or 900C) is used.

Another variable is the extraction rate, or how much of the grain is used. Fibre content relates partly to this.

Yet another variable is how finely the flour is ground.

However the reason I say that this is irrelevant is that technique has a lot more influence than the exact type of flour.

French and many European bakers traditionally use softer flour, but still make good bread. High gluten flours don't make better bread or more extensible dough, but with lots of additives can make dough that can stand more abuse, for example in bread machines or intensive industrial processes, and still make an acceptable product.

Best advice is to use a flour that is produced and milled local to you, and then optimise your technique using it to make your own unique bread.

Edited September 26, 2005 by jackal10 (log)

[piazzola]

These are the three moste desirable elements

High protein (darker flour pale or greyish)

High ash content .60% and above(more minerals) high extraction rate means less purified

and starch quality the higher the rate the better though it is not always the case. However it is for the first two other above

[doronin]

Guys, it is difficult to me to apply 900 degrees Celcius to the flour in the store to figure out its ash content - and it's not printed on the package. Jack, I agree with you that it's generally irrelevant, assuming you have an access to the standard quality white flour - it's, at list, acceptable enough to produce a good bread. However, I'm using 100% whole grain wheat or rye, which is a problem by itself - it's much more difficult to make a good tasting and looking bread with such flours, thus I'm looking for additional tips and tricks that are just not usually necessary for white bread.

This is why I'm looking to know how to determine flour qualities, not using spectrum analysis of course. There are many kinds of flour, and some have consistently better extensibility then others. Why extensibility? Because amoung the available to me flours I chose an organic one with high (13.7%) protein. When mixing I see easely that gluten is forming quickly - even wet dough sits on the hook just after about 3 minutes. The problem is that bread comes very stiff (I mean stiff, not dence, i.e. it's hard even when airy). Then I read that high protein flours are actually lower in protein quality then low protein ones... So what I want to try is flour known as well extensible, the question is how to get one...

[piazzola]

Well then you can't just rely on the label for information

Actaully flours are milled according to some standards where there is a protein

variance or band allowed that millers aim at. So if they aim at 13% then it will be that but it could go as high as 14.%.

So don't believe in the package information it is usually not very reliable info in fact it does not mean it will be 13.5% it could go lower or it could go higher

Your best bet is to ring the millers for tech info on the flours they make usually they are pretty good on supplying that kind of information if you talk business

The rule of the thumb is the higher the protein the higher the water absorption rate to 64%-68% depends on the weather and less white the flour is.

If you bought a store flour there is usually a recipe where you can see the water rate suggested that is usually a tell tale sign of the strenght of the flour.

Now if you flour is too dense it may be due to not enough water or overkneading

[jackal10]

hmm... if you are using 100% wholegrain you have other issues. The bran particles puncture the gas cells, so you will never get as open as texture as with white flour. Also the apparent protein content will be higher - and the ash content will also be higher as much of the mineral content is inthe husk. How finely ground will also afect the character.

However I think you main problem is that wholemeal flours adsorb a lot more water. You might want to increase the water content to about 70% hydration, but you can tell by when the dough feels right to you.

Rye is another whole area, since the gluten in rye is different to wheat, and needs different treatment

Edited September 27, 2005 by jackal10 (log)

[doronin]

hmm... if you are using 100% wholegraon extraction you have other issues. The bran particles puncture the gas cells, so you will neverget as open as texture as with white flour. Also the apparent protein content will be higher - and the ash content will also be higher as much of the mineral content is inthe husk. How finely ground will also afect the character. 

However I think you main problem is that wholemeal flours adsorb a lot more water.  You might want to increase the water content to about 70% hydration, but you can tell by when the dough feels right to you.

←

Well, I'm just trying to do the best that can be done from 100% whole wheat.

As for water content, last time I ended up in 80% - it was very sticky, but not even close to "butter" feeling.

[jackal10]

Exactly what is your formula and technique?

And what do you feel is wrong with the final bread?

[doronin]

Ok... 200g whole wheat flour goes to stiff preferment and sits on counter overnight and some more in the fridge.

600g the same flour, 500g water, some salt and a pinch of yeast are mixed, leaved for 15-20 min, then kneaded with preferment for about 6 minutes.

2-2.5 hours of bulk fermentation with turn/fold every hour, until I can see a network of little bubbles on a cut.

Divided in two, shaped, proofed ~75 min, slashed, and goes into the oven with a stone, pregeated to about 265 Celcius. Steam introduced by hot pan with a cup of boiling water.

Problem:

Baked bread is not very dense, though not very airy, but crumb in a slice is too tough on touch, too rubbery. As I tried to play with increasing/decreasing kneading time, I guess the dough might be not extensible enough .

[jackal10]

Is it possible that the loaves are underbaked? 265C is perhaps a little hot. That would give a slightly moist, tough crumb. I would expect a loaf that size to take 40 mins or so to bake.

A softer flour, around 12% protein will give a softer crumb.

Otherwise I'm puzzled. You could try omitting the yeast, and lengthening the fermentation and proof times instead (4 hours and 2 hours is what I use at 30C). The slightly sourer environemnt will also soften the gluten.

[doronin]

Is it possible that the loaves are underbaked? 265C is perhaps a little hot. That would give a slightly moist, tough crumb. I would expect a loaf that size to take 40 mins or so to bake.

←

I lower the temp to 215-220 after 5 minutes. Also, 800g flour make 2 loaves, but I baked them about 50 min - may be they're just overbaked?

Otherwise I'm puzzled. You could try omitting the yeast, and lengthening the fermentation and proof times instead (4 hours and 2 hours is what I use at 30C). The slightly sourer environemnt will also soften the gluten.

←

Omitting the yeast is a fresh idea considering this is yeast-only bread - I still can't start with natural leavenings...

[jackal10]

Oh. I thought the preferement you were using was a natural leaven...

If they were overbaked they would be dry. ndebaked a little moist and gummy in the centre.

Contrary to popular belief bread in a brick oven actually bakes in a rising heat, as the oven recovers heat lost when loading with cold dough from the heat reservoir in the poorly conducting brick. The overall heat loss is small compared to this process.

[piazzola]

15-20 min, then kneaded with preferment for about 6 minutes.

Problem:

Baked bread is not very dense, though not very airy, but crumb in a slice is too tough on touch, too rubbery. As I tried to play with increasing/decreasing kneading time, I guess the dough might be not extensible enough .

←

I'd say short knead would be good if the dough would go to autolyse but it doesn't seem to be the case.

So 6 minutes is not near enough to develop gluten strands that traps the air unless you mix on higher speeds then again higher speeds may reduce the size of the air bubbles.

[doronin]

piazzola, my initial kneading time (Kitchenaid 1-2 speeds) was 12 minutes, it was worse, so I started to get it down...

[piazzola]

Depends on the water added and its quality for high gluten or perotein flour high hydration of about 80% is not uncommon

[cookaburra]

I have a bucket of flour at work and the label which was written on the plastic has worn off.I'm not sure whether it is self raising or plain flour.

Can anybody tell me if there if is any test you can do to find out which one it is without ruining the recipe I intend to use it for?

[Wendy DeBord]

If you or your co-workers don't remember which it is, it's probably pretty old and not worth using, imo. Flour is cheap, mistakes aren't.

[SweetSide]

How often is self-rising flour needed -- I personally don't have much of a need for it. However, when called for, I have this substitution recipe:

1 Cup flour less two teaspoons

1/2 tsp salt

1 1/2 tsp baking powder

Then, you don't need to worry about them getting mixed up nor do you have to worry about the flour getting old and/or losing its leavening power.

[beccaboo]

You could taste it--plain tastes of flour, while self-raising tastes of flour plus baking powder and (sometimes) salt.

[danlepard]

What about stirring a spoonful into 1/2 cup water with a little vinegar added, and watching to see if it foams or aerates?

Dan x

[K8memphis]

Just make a quick half batch of biscuits like this:

Umm, so just use 1 cup flour, 3 T. butter or shortening, 3 oz. milk

If they fluff up it's self-rising.

If they're flat & heavy it's all purpose.

[Sugarella]

Danlepard's test is the right one......but I agree with Wendy that if it's too old to remember, throw it out.

[miladyinsanity]

Danlepard's test is the right one......but I agree with Wendy that if it's too old to remember, throw it out.

←

Yeah. If it's old, and self-raising, it's probably not going to work anyway.

[cookaburra]

Thanks everyone.Good advice.

I'll try the taste test and the vinegar in the water test.