Study supports touching guests

[zilla369]

If you're a server, please don't touch me OR my date. Unless you're lesfen's husband.

kidding

[snowangel]

Dear Paid Employee:

Do not touch me. Do not call me "hon" or "darling" or "sweetie." Worst ever was the touch on the shoulder, while the server asked my husband "what would the little woman like?" (I am 5'9".)

[racheld]

Okaaaaay. Am I the only Easy woman on this board? My Deep South raising probably has a lot to do with it, but I just don't seem to have my shields up as much as is evinced on this thread. (A Cloaking Device---now THAT would be handy).

We have several friendly, favorite places around town where we have grown to know and like the staff--we remember each others' names and ask about the children, etc., and a friendly hand on the shoulder or forearm has never made me jump back, cringe or grimace. I literally HATE to cook fish, so Hubby has discovered a grubby, oil-cloth-tables place with Killer catfish, whose waitresses (yes they ARE SO) are kind and helpful and glad to see us. One in particular is memorable for the sheer number of shoulder-pats administered in one evening.

We were seated at a longish 4-top with one narrow end against the wall, so that we were viewed and approached from the side. With every pass in our vicinity, she deftly refilled tea, whisked away plates, brought more fish, etc., and each visit was accompanied by a tiny pat on my left shoulder, and a word or two about being right back with that or could she get us anything else.

Never ONCE did she introduce herself and proclaim that she would be our server, in a voice which presumed deep friendship and promised the naming of children in our honor. Nor did she ever ask if we were still working on that, or slap down a check with the entree. Her only vice/mistake/faux pas, according to this thread, was that she gently touched my shoulder with a kind word. I can live with that. I don't mind that. I even might LIKE that, but I certainly understand the reluctance and dislike of being touched or hugged by anyone not rightly entitled or invited to do so.

The sweet young women at our favorite Chinese place, with their own cultural reticence and polite upbringings, sometimes touch a shoulder as they pour tea or set down a dish. I like them; we've known them for many years and exchange pleasantries on entering and leaving, and we are greeted at some time of the evening by each and every one of the staff as they pass by. And once, several years ago, they stoutly defended my territory on an occasion when my gorgeous younger sister had flown in for a visit.

We drove up to the door, and I said to Hubby, "You two go on in, and I'll stay behind for a moment; let's see what they say." So he sashayed in with this beautiful, size 5 blonde on his arm.

When I went in, Hubby and Sis were seated, and they related what had happened at the hostess counter. Our tight-lipped hostess looked them up and down, then asked, "Where is SHE???? Is SHE out of town????"

I looked around the room to see all our usual servers standing, arms folded, glaring at Hubby and Sis. We all started to laugh, and I made sure to mention that this was my baby sister. Sis said she was sure glad to see me; she swore they would probably have spit in her dinner.

[lesfen]

If you're a server, please don't touch me OR my date.  Unless you're lesfen's husband.

kidding

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[Eden]

We have several friendly, favorite places around town where we have grown to know and like the staff--we remember each others' names and ask about the children, etc., and a friendly hand on the shoulder or forearm has never made me jump back, cringe or grimace.  

To me this is different. In most of the cases you describe, I would not have a problem because they are people you have known for some time. I am happy to shake hands with the owners/staff of some of my favorite local restaurants when we meet because there is already a friendly relationship established. I don't have a problem with human contact borne of genuine friendlyness developed over time, but strangers don't get to touch me - period.

I LOVE that your chinese restaurant staff was looking out for your back - that's just sweet!

Edited September 12, 2005 by Eden (log)

[Megan Blocker]

There's more to creating warmth than touching. Recently, a group of friends and I decided to splurge and have dinner at Jean-Georges. We had a fantastic time, in part because the waitress in charge of our table was a blast. Since this was J-G, she was clearly of high-quality waitstaff stock, and she did an excellent job of reading our mood and attitude (down-to-earth, upbeat, food-loving, and just on the proper side of boisterous). She was clearly the kind of waitperson who is able to adjust their demeanor/approach from table to table, and it paid off - we left a huge tip. I was very impressed by her, and we've actually spoken about her several times since as the ideal waitress. And not once did she touch a single one of us.

If she had, the outcome would have been very different. I get enough of strangers touching me on the subway. I don't need it in a restaurant. I'm a very physically affectionate person, but that's just completely inappropriate (unless, as has been mentioned, you've met the waitperson before). Even a handshake before or after dinner is fine. But touching me during the meal? NO WAY.

[jamiemaw]

article from Nation's Restaurant News

A Cornell University study backs up those positive benefits and documents a monetary value to tactile tableservice. When employees touch customers the upshots are better tips and greater customer satisfaction . . .

Let 'er rip! How do you think touching works in a restaurant setting? Positive and warm? Too familiar and annoying?

Your conclusions? Slightly longer touch?[/I] When is too much really too much? or does everyone need the warmth of a touch nowadays?

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Depends entirely on where I’m eating out. Because it's both cultural and circumstantial, isn't it?

For instance, it was a lovely warm summer day in Vancouver yesterday. At Wreck Beach, which is a very large (thousands served) nude beach at the end of our street, I observed quite a few displays of gratuitous touching in lieu of tipping as it's hard to carry small change.

Similarly, at the other end of our street lies a neighbourhood tratt that we frequent once a week or so. The manager, who is attractive to the point of nubility oblige, is given to hugging favoured patrons. I have learned, over time, to hug back, occasionally with vigour.

But in a larger city, congestion might spell a heightened revulsion when foreign bodies penetrate our atmosphere. Like the night in a fabled New York restaurant when the loathsome maitre d' insisted on shaking my hand. I quite rightly saw the handshake as a shakedown: as the offended touchee, I regarded this chap's clammy attempt at familiarity much as one would look upon being touched by a leper in the 13th Century.

But shortly afterward, at a superior establishment called El Beach Bar in Quintana Roo, Mexico, my favourite barman, José, greeted me warmly with a handshake. In this element, I took it not just as a sign of friendship, even affection, but as a lead indicator that the next round would be on him.

And now, back to bird watching, GG: Falcons vs. Eagles.

Edited September 13, 2005 by jamiemaw (log)

[lesfen]

Yeah, if I know the folks, it's not a big deal. The family that owns our local sushi joint are all exremely affectionate and I have no problem with that. Hugs all around upon arrival, a touch on the shoulder or arm while telling jokes and ordering, and handshakes and more hugs when we leave. Heck, one waitress in particular has even taken our munchkin away from the table to entertain her while we enjoyed our meals... the difference being that we've been going there for four years (hubby's been going for about six). They're like old friends to us. Mr./Miss Happy Shirt at the steak place down the street... not so much. I don't know you... don't touch me.

[purplewiz]

I don't like being touched by strangers. It's one of the things that drives me nuts about cities - as you're walking down the sidewalk, you're always being bumped and jostled and *touched*. My skin crawls by the end of the day.

While on the whole I'd prefer that servers didn't touch me, as others mentioned, there are cultural exceptions. In North Carolina a friend took us to a barbecue place that was obviously run by the family, the pound cakes proudly on display were made by somebody's gramma, and when you're there, you're family. If you don't want that kind of experience, which includes casual touching, you don't eat there.

But as a ploy to get a bigger tip? It's more likely to make me uncomfortable, which tightens my wallet considerably.

Marcia.

[viva]

It depends <cough/shallowness ahead> on the attractiveness of the waiter. There was that really hot waiter on Mykonos... I didn't mind at all when he put his hand on my back. In fact, it's one of my favorite memories of my trip to Greece. A not-hot waiter? Hands off.

Conversely, some young bimbo waitress better not touch me (and more importantly, hands off my date). However, a nice grandma-type in a diner serving me pie wouldn't bother me.

Edited September 13, 2005 by viva (log)

[Megan Blocker]

It depends <cough/shallowness ahead> on the attractiveness of the waiter.  There was that really hot waiter on Mykonos... I didn't mind at all when he put his hand on my back.  In fact, it's one of my favorite memories of my trip to Greece.

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Well, that's really more about having fun (and high hopes) on vacation, no? Sigh.

[Pan]

We have several friendly, favorite places around town where we have grown to know and like the staff--we remember each others' names and ask about the children, etc., and a friendly hand on the shoulder or forearm has never made me jump back, cringe or grimace. 

To me this is different. In most of the cases you describe, I would not have a problem because they are people you have known for some time.[...]

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Right.

I've been to Congee Village umpteen times in the last several years, so some of the personnel know me by face. I recall a time when I had a banquet with about 6 or 7 other people and one of the managers I knew took over the ordering process when I asked for the menu with the lamb chops on it, which was all in Chinese (thanks to a suggestion on these boards from Fat Guy). I negotiated our multi-course meal between the other guests and the manager, and he came back to help serve us and make sure we enjoyed every course. At the end of the meal, we all told him how wonderful it was, and he put his arm around me. I was very happy and saw that as his way of showing his affection for a person of good taste who appreciated his efforts. But no way is that like being touched by a waiter I met for the first time, which I can't remember having happened to me in New York. Hmmm...maybe in a family-style restaurant as a little kid, and then, it was probably that annoying cheek-pinching crap...

[saskanuck]

I reallly hate being touched by strangers, so touching in a restaurant would skeeve me out. A grandma-type in a diner would probably be ok. As a ploy for a tip; that would backfire.

racheld, I love that your chinese restaurant people were looking after you. I wonder if one of them had a big cleaver hidden behind their back!

[Sam Salmon]

In the past here I've remarked that I must have lived a sheltered life despite living in a city of millions of people/having travelled the planet for decades.

Where did all these 'touch me nots' come from anyway?

LMAO!!!

I work with the public and weekly have people ask my name and shake my hand because they enjoy the service I give (despite my sometimes lugubrious profile here(!))

Having grown up in an Eastern European family and enjoyed kissing hugging all my relatives I have no problem if someone wants to touch me/offer a reassuring pat on the shoulder-what's the big deal anyway?

Germs?

I breathe more dirt every time I get on my bike-BFD everybody's going to die one day some of us sooner than others.

Lively Up Yourself!

[Megan Blocker]

Having grown up in an Eastern European family and enjoyed kissing hugging all my relatives I have no problem if someone wants to touch me/offer a reassuring pat on the shoulder-what's the big deal anyway?

Germs?

I breathe more dirt every time I get on my bike-BFD everybody's going to die one day some of us sooner than others.

Lively Up Yourself!

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For me it's not germs - it's that, in the context, the touch feels inauthentic, like it's a bid to get a bigger tip. Because I don't understand or like the motivation, the touch is unwelcome.

I think we have here a case of good touch, bad touch. I have no problem touching the vast majority of people - as mentioned in my earlier post, shaking hands with a particularly friendly restaurant owner or maitre d' would not strike me as odd or off-putting. Greeting aquaintances or friends of friends with a kiss or two on each cheek - same deal, totally fine. But having a total stranger put their hand on my shoulder in a familiar way just seems...weird.

[Rebel Rose]

There's a thin line between a casual touch and a subtle grope. I do not approve of strangers and unfamiliar waitstaff putting their arms around me while I am dining, or placing a hand on my back or forearm. In a fine dining restaurant, anything above a handshake or a light touch on the shoulder or back by the owner would be improper.

Once I become a regular at a local spot, and the waitstaff still love me after putting up with my boisterous SO and friends, then it's more than fine with me. And I have learned to make really, really wide exceptions for chefs and Frenchmen.

[Carrot Top]

In Communications Theory, there is something called Proxemics.

This is the study of personal space and the various definitions of the zones that we consider to be appropriate in interactive personal communications.

The assumption is that expectations will drive our interactions and will define the interaction as being acceptable or deviant. (Love that word. )

Our expectations are learned from our culture and from our experiences.

These are the definitions of the zones for North America:

1. Intimate - Touch to 18". Defined as for intimate interactions.

2. Personal distance - 18" to 4 feet. Defined as for interaction with family or close friends.

3. Social distance - 4 to 12 feet. For work settings or social settings.

4. Public distance - 12 feet and beyond. Formal discussions or settings.

It would seem to me that the personal space relationship between server and patron would fit into the "social distance" category.

It is worthwhile to note that again, these are the zones for North America. In Europe, for example, the "social distance" is defined as being half that of the North American model.

(Where did this study that said guests like being touched come from again?!)

....................................................................

Finally, I am tempted to say "When in Rome do as the Romans do". But then the thought of French men came to me and I realized it would be a mistake to say that. Don't smile at a French man if you are a woman, unless you want to immediately know him very very well.

How that relates to the original question, I can not remember.

Anyway.

[Megan Blocker]

And I have learned to make really, really wide exceptions for chefs and Frenchmen. 

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Finally, I am tempted to say "When in Rome do as the Romans do". But then the thought of French men came to me and I realized it would be a mistake to say that. Don't smile at a French man if you are a woman, unless you want to immediately know him very very well.

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Hee hee!

So true.

[Chris Amirault]

Carrot Top, this Proxemics stuff is cool!! It seems related to some of the stuff I've read about gesture, gait, and so on: a really fascinating way to think about how we embody culture.

To wit:

These are the definitions of the zones for North America:

1. Intimate - Touch to 18". Defined as for intimate interactions.

2. Personal distance - 18" to 4 feet.  Defined as for interaction with family or close friends.

3. Social distance - 4 to 12 feet. For work settings or social settings.

4. Public distance - 12 feet and beyond. Formal discussions or settings.

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Do you know ratings for other cultures that have been mentioned here? It might be interesting to add that information to this thread if you've got access to it.

[Carrot Top]

Do you know ratings for other cultures that have been mentioned here? It might be interesting to add that information to this thread if you've got access to it.

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I don't have that info at the moment, Chris. . .it was just the "native" culture that I happened to run across this with. . .but will try to see what I can find, and will post it if I can locate it.

It is interesting, isn't it.

[Carrot Top]

Here is an amusing little link per your request, Chris.

How's Your Personal Distance

[Busboy]

These are the definitions of the zones for North America:

1. Intimate - Touch to 18". Defined as for intimate interactions.

2. Personal distance - 18" to 4 feet.  Defined as for interaction with family or close friends.

3. Social distance - 4 to 12 feet. For work settings or social settings.

4. Public distance - 12 feet and beyond. Formal discussions or settings.

It would seem to me that the personal space relationship between server and patron would fit into the "social distance" category.

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I just want to know how that waiter is going to hear my order and serve my dinner from 4 to 12 feet away. Hell, half the places I go to, 12 feet back is two tables down. It's like getting a hot dog at the ball game from half-way down the row.

Not that I want the sucker breathing down my neck, mind you.

[Carrot Top]

Yeah, I thought the same thing till I measured four feet with my arms wide open. It is just about the right space, (if the waiter is standing and has not decided to cuddle up next to you in the booth or sidle down onto the floor. . . ).

Of course there are places in NY where four feet isn't even allowed between tables, forget about between people, and screaming the order into the waiter's ear is neccesary because of the existing decibel level.

That is, if I remember right.

[SuzySushi]

Here is an amusing little link per your request, Chris.

How's Your Personal Distance

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Interesting article! I have a Japanese friend who lived in Moscow for some years when her husband was a diplomat. She perceived Russian service in stores, markets, restaurants, etc. as surly and commented that the Russians never smiled... Maybe she was seeing them from a Japanese point of view (Japanese in similar positions smile and bow to the customer).

I've also read and noticed from personal experience that people from the Middle East and South America have a closer sense of personal distance than Americans, and often will stand "too close" (by our perception) to strangers, making Americans feel uncomfortable.

[anzu]

Interesting article! I have a Japanese friend who lived in Moscow for some years when her husband was a diplomat. She perceived Russian service in stores, markets, restaurants, etc. as surly and commented that the Russians never smiled... Maybe she was seeing them from a Japanese point of view (Japanese in similar positions smile and bow to the customer).

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Of course, one's perceptions will be colored by the norms of the country one is most used to but, IMO, it was highly likely that they DID never smile. I've lived in 7 countries spanning 4 different continents, and find that such attitudes can differ as much as the physical distance people maintain. Nowhere else do people smile as much or act as friendly as in Japan and the US, for example.

Mind you, I suppose that, within the limits of normal human variation, what someone from a 'friendlier' country sees as surliness might not be perceived as such in the country where that is the norm - just normal customer service instead.

Illustrating that latter point, I used to know a person who grew up in India, then spent 6 years in Moscow, and then went to the American Mid-West, which is where I got to know her. When she had been there a short while she actually had to go counselling due to depression. Everyone was TOO friendly and smiling in the Mid-West - way beyond the norms of what she was used to - and she couldn't cope with it and found it extremely threatening.

So this sounds rather like what people above were describing with respect to touching but, if from a background where extreme emotional distance is the norm, even people smiling at you to a greater extent can be unpleasant if you are not used to it.

BTW, if she moved to Germany, she'd get a nice quota of surliness and unfriendliness again.

Edited September 15, 2005 by anzu (log)