NYT Articles on Food, Drink, Cooking, and Culinary Culture (2005–2011)

[Irishgirl]

Another perspective on salt on the tables.....

A former boss of mine removed the salt and pepper shakers from his tables not because he wished to imply that the food needed no further seasoning, but because the customers kept stealing them. He had bought some beautiful shakers and they cost $100 per set. He didn't want to buy tacky looking ones.....but it was just easier to keep track of the inventory. At the request of the diner, they were provided, and then removed when the mains were cleared.

Sometimes things are not what they seem.

I do object to the waiter who is so obvious in his sales technique, that they are pushing something on you before you have finished what was already requested. I also find the ploy of "Fresh Ground Pepper" at the table repulsiuve, because most of the time they ask me if I wish it before I have tasted my food. To me it is a ploy to convince the diner that they are getting good service.

Did I like the article? No. It was not well written. Can I identify with some of it? Yes. Can I scoff at some of it? Yes. She is obvoiusly a spoiled woman. But the whole "on the side" bit in When Harry met Sally, demonstrates that. Which is why Harry describes Sally as "high maintenance".

Carry on.

[Megan Blocker]

In terms of the type of salt, I actually prefer sea salt. Probably that's because I mostly use salt in restaurants on my bread and butter, and in that instance the coarse crystals are nice. I also vastly prefer fresh ground pepper to sawdust. I'd rather have a small individual grinder on my table than have the busboy proffer the pepper, though.

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Yes! Because they always offer the pepper before you've even had a chance to taste your food - drives me bonkers.

Rut-roh, am I now whiny?

[Fat Guy]

There are some situations where I know in advance I'm going to want pepper. Caesar salad comes to mind. My problem with the third-party peppermill is that you can't control very well how much pepper you get. "Say when" is just about the world's most unreliable system.

But to get back to why Nora Ephron's essay is so bad, none of what she wrote is new or interesting information. Her essay wouldn't have been cutting edge ten years ago, and today it's downright pedestrian. Again, I think the Times op-ed page should be ashamed to have printed this drivel, and she should be ashamed to have written it.

[rich]

Again, I think the Times op-ed page should be ashamed to have printed this drivel, and she should be ashamed to have written it.

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The Times has been printing drivel for years - this example isn't a deviation from the norm.

In fact, isn't their slogan "All the Drivel That's Fit to Print?"

[Kent D]

Today, at lunch, I was relating to my wife the basics of Ms. Ephron's piece and the discussion here, and she suggested maybe it was just a piece of satire, poorly written, but nonetheless a commentary on New York fine dining...but then again, my wife's a big fan of her work and her movies, so maybe she's cutting Nora a break. I can actually see her point though -- maybe she was just making a joke, and no one else got it...

[CopperTop]

In one way, I have to agree with Ms. Ephron - I can't stand the "hover-bot" style of service in a lot of restaurants. I have been known to actually tell the server that their tip will double if they just serve the food, glance over to see if beverages need refilling as they walk past, ask if we want dessert when they clear the entree plates and if we don't want dessert, bring the check as soon as possible.

However, if that piece was meant as satire, it came off as whinier than my 6 year old granddaughter in dire need of a nap.

[Fat Guy]

It was unintentional satire.

[Megan Blocker]

Some responses from NYT readers were published today...looks like they had a slightly different reaction to the piece (save one of the eight) than many of us did.

I can't really comment, since I didn't end up reading the article (you all seemed so annoyed and I was in no mood to be ticked off), but thought you all might like to know!

Edited September 18, 2006 by Megan Blocker (log)

[tommy]

Some responses from NYT readers were published today...looks like they had a slightly different reaction to the piece (save one of the eight) than many of us did.

I can't really comment, since I didn't end up reading the article (you all seemed so annoyed and I was in no mood to be ticked off), but thought you all might like to know!

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since you didn't read it, this comment by one person might sum it up: apparently the author "exposed the intrusive tyranny of the restaurant business."

Edited September 18, 2006 by tommy (log)

[FabulousFoodBabe]

In terms of the type of salt, I actually prefer sea salt. Probably that's because I mostly use salt in restaurants on my bread and butter, and in that instance the coarse crystals are nice. I also vastly prefer fresh ground pepper to sawdust. I'd rather have a small individual grinder on my table than have the busboy proffer the pepper, though.

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Yes! Because they always offer the pepper before you've even had a chance to taste your food - drives me bonkers.

Rut-roh, am I now whiny?

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No, Miss Megan! Only middle-aged biddies are whiny. Younger women are, well, adorable, petulant, and understandably deserving of being spoiled and pampered, when they say that kind of thing. (Even at 40, you will be all those things, m'dear.)

I do feel sorry for servers, sometimes. They can't win! They're being pulled by their own management, their own capabilities, and have to read customers' minds. But that's not the point of the thread,I guess. (The pepper mill is just silly, and I'm sure the waiters/resses don't like having to do it, either.)

[ned]

Fish, I'd like to introduce you to Mr. Barrel. Swim in circles for a moment while I load up. Now how do I do this without splashing myself? Oh well cover your ears, here goes.

Actually Ms. Ephron cited many of my own complaints. They pour out water that fast so another bottle may be sold. And another and another at eight to twelve bucks a pop. And the same goes for wine only bump the price up a bit.

As for checking on the table when the food has just arrived, seems to me there's a miscommunication at play. "Is everything all right" actually means "Do you have everything you need, did the backwaiter bring you the right food, is the steak medium-rare like you wanted, may I now leave you alone for a while." They oughtn't be looking for critique and most of the time I don't think they are.

When it comes to salt, I usually need some. And I like the crunch of maldens or fleur de sel, or whatever the salt of the moment is. But I don't like those tiny little bowls either. particularly when they don't have a spoon. Who else's nasty fingers have been in that bowl anyway? Could be that an appropriate serving device for large crystal salt has yet to be introduced. There's a niche market for ya.

Dining is a delicate dance. I think there's plenty of room for both sides to endure their petty irritations. And voice them too. Maybe there should be an occasional page devoted to editorials in the NYT Dining section. . . This piece, harmless as it was, sure garnered a lot of interest.

Edited September 19, 2006 by ned (log)

[Rebel Rose]

Clearly Nora doesn't dine with dedicated wine geeks. We cork dorks usually scoop up the salt, pepper, water glasses, and bud vase, and ask to have them all removed to make room for more wine glasses. I've been known to stack this stuff on a chair to make room for a flight of glasses and appetizers.

[Megan Blocker]

Clearly Nora doesn't dine with dedicated wine geeks.  We cork dorks usually scoop up the salt, pepper, water glasses, and bud vase, and ask to have them all removed to make room for more wine glasses.  I've been known to stack this stuff on a chair to make room for a flight of glasses and appetizers. 

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That's like the adult version of tray consolidation in the college dining halls...stack the trays, make room for one more...

No, Miss Megan! Only middle-aged biddies are whiny. Younger women are, well, adorable, petulant, and understandably deserving of being spoiled and pampered, when they say that kind of thing. wink.gif (Even at 40, you will be all those things, m'dear.)

Phew! So I've got a few years, then. I'll just stick that pouty lower lip of mine back out and resume my petulant demands for pampering.

[jackbr4]

You're eating dinner at a 'white tablecloth' establishment, something you do once, or maybe a twice a month, and you notice another diner sour-faced and complaining throughout a meal that you, in your humble opinion, think is just fine. Who know who I'm talking about - and you are mortified and embarrassed for them, feel bad for the waiter, and say to your partner, 'if i ever get like that, shoot me.' seems like the diner in this case was nora ephron - it just seems like one of those situations where nothing would have pleased her - some people just find fault in everything and are unhappy, and when you are being served and cooked for by others, if you try hard enough, you can always find something. . . .

[kristin_71]

What was the point? Is she trying to be funny? Cause she ain't. Why did the Times even waste any space with this drivel?

[Catriona]

The article is reproduced in today's Guardian (www.guardian.co.uk)

[dr_whom]

The article is reproduced in today's Guardian (www.guardian.co.uk)

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In which liberal environs it came across as even more infuriating.

Seriously, if you're going to sing White Girl Blues then you need a really decent riff behind you.

*breathes into harmonica*

[Tess]

Oh, great. US culture is represented in the Guardian today by that piece and by a digest of last words from prisoners on Texas's Death Row. No wonder the Guardian readers hate us.

[essvee]

Feh. I agree with some of Ms. Ephron's points, except the bizarre dessertspoon thing. And I agree with the poster who pointed out that the waiter is just checking to see if he/she can leave the table alone for a while.

But the tone of the article was offputting, to say the least. She could have written much more cogently and forcefully on the upselling of water, for instance. But because she chose to focus, firstly and bizarrely, on the size of the glasses, she took away from the main point of the waiter emptying the bottle and instantly asking if the table wants to buy another bottle. This seems to have become endemic; Michael Bauer of the SF Chronicle has written for years about the attitude he'll get when he asked for tap water. Yeah, you gotta specify tap because if you don't they'll pour an 11 dollar bottle of some still water from Iceland or some such.

As to the salt, I am totally in agreement. I am of the Marcella Hazan school of salting--that is to say, minimal. But if I do want to put salt on something, I'd rather it wasn't big crunchy grains in a lil dish with a lil spoon. I want to shake some salt that dissolves and subtly enhances the flavor, that doesn't just sit on top of the dish all big and salty. I can't salt evenly with that little spoon, and I'd much rather have a shaker of nice kosher salt than a dish of big and crunchy sea salt.

So, to my mind, Ms. Ephron makes some valid points, but she shoots herself in the foot right away with her snarky, humorless tone and never recovers.

Everyone needs an editor, some more than most. Ms. Ephron could have used a good editor in that piece.

[kulebyaka]

Nora Ephron's piece was IMHO a fluffy antidote to all the gawdawful news with which we're relentlessly hammered these days. If she weren't a "name", the article probably wouldn't have been published. The reason it's created a flap here may well be the simple fact that her work is well known and that she's usually very funny and a good hand with satire, but has fallen a bit short here in maintaining her usual level of performance. I feel that we would do well by lightening up a bit.

HOWEVER, while I have your collective ear, let me air my pet restaurant peeve. I've always been bemused by the server who, when you give your order, says something like "Excellent choice!" Is he/she thinking, "Whew! I was afraid she was going to order the fish and chips."?

[robyn]

What was the point? Is she trying to be funny? Cause she ain't. Why did the Times even waste any space with this drivel?

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She wasn't trying to be funny. She's in a bad mood this year - as anyone who read the excerpt from her new book in Vogue a few months ago knows (summary of the magazine article is here). And cranky. And she has a right to be. What woman - upon closing in on or reaching 60 - looking at significant recent losses in her life - isn't (and who of us 60ish women hasn't had some of those losses)?

Although I don't think this was anywhere near her best writing (the Vogue article was a lot better and brought tears to my eyes) - I think she makes some good points. I am sick of restaurants that are more interested in trying to sell me fancy marked up too many times bottles of water (thanks but no thanks) instead of decent martinis - and the only reason I drink martinis is because it's almost impossible to find a restaurant - even a fancy one - that sells tonic in bottles for a gin and tonic instead of that stuff that comes out flat from a gun. Or heck - how about those fancy restaurants with the fancy water that don't even bother to get a liquor license?

As for water glasses - the main reason to have a real water glass shaped like a water glass (and a server who knows what a water glass looks like) is so the server doesn't pour the last of your white wine into the last of your water.

And why does your server always ask whether you like the food before you eat it - and almost never when 3/4 of it is left on your plate when you're finished?

Concerning salt and pepper - I am not a salt person - but I sometimes like to add a fair amount of pepper to a salad. I understand the concerns about thievery - but at a high end restaurant - it should be possible to set the table with salt and pepper shakers/mills - and remove the items near the end of the meal so they won't get stolen (doesn't the table have to be reset anyway?). The only time I thought those little salt plates made sense was in Japan when I was eating some foods that were meant to be dipped in salt. For dipping - the little plates are perfect. As for the ones with teeny weeny spoons - what are they thinking of? And - although I don't have an opinion about salts - since I don't use a lot - what comes out of the kitchen is usually salted enough for me (although I know the sea salt in my kitchen is different than the kosher salt in my kitchen) - if it really is a "chunky" salt - why not serve it in a salt grinder?

As for dessert spoons - I can't recall seeing one in recent years (perhaps I don't eat desserts that go with spoons). However - if restaurants are going to use them - then please do me the favor of giving me a sauce spoon too (which I have much greater use for but only see once in a blue moon).

And don't we all know - but frequently forget - that main courses are usually the most disappointing part of a meal. I forget all the time - and when I complain - like I did here after my meal at Babbo - everyone said - "don't you know the thing to order at Babbo is the primi pasta courses!".

Are these trivial things - well yes and no. When you're paying a lot of money for a meal - you want a seamless no-hassle experience. And when you're having a lousy year - you don't want what might otherwise be a fun night off from dreary daily things - a night where you would like to pampered in an unobtrusive way - to be ruined by a lot of minor annoyances. If you aren't where Nora Ephron and I are these days - don't worry - the years will pass quickly and you'll get there soon enough. Robyn

Edited September 20, 2006 by robyn (log)

[kristin_71]

What was the point? Is she trying to be funny? Cause she ain't. Why did the Times even waste any space with this drivel?

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Although I don't think this was anywhere near her best writing (the Vogue article was a lot better and brought tears to my eyes) - I think she makes some good points. I am sick of restaurants that are more interested in trying to sell me fancy marked up too many times bottles of water (thanks but no thanks) instead of decent martinis - and the only reason I drink martinis is because it's almost impossible to find a restaurant - even a fancy one - that sells tonic in bottles for a gin and tonic instead of that stuff that comes out flat from a gun. Or heck - how about those fancy restaurants with the fancy water that don't even bother to get a liquor license?

Robyn

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I just read an article in Food Arts maybe a month or so ago about Per Se's barman and how there are very few mixed drinks offered there for two reasons. 1. the bar is small and 2. It just doesn't go with what Per Se is trying to accomplish. I don't know that this is quite the norm but it could be a new trend.

Yea the wine lists are jacked up quite a bit from what they would normally cost you, but then again many of the wine lists in really good restaurants are not readily available through normal channels. To get these wines you have to get directly through the vineyards, and have them shipped to you etc, etc. hence the mark up.

As for restaurants without liquor licenses, that just seems to be a death sentence to me.

Edited September 20, 2006 by kristin_71 (log)

[robyn]

What was the point? Is she trying to be funny? Cause she ain't. Why did the Times even waste any space with this drivel?

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Although I don't think this was anywhere near her best writing (the Vogue article was a lot better and brought tears to my eyes) - I think she makes some good points. I am sick of restaurants that are more interested in trying to sell me fancy marked up too many times bottles of water (thanks but no thanks) instead of decent martinis - and the only reason I drink martinis is because it's almost impossible to find a restaurant - even a fancy one - that sells tonic in bottles for a gin and tonic instead of that stuff that comes out flat from a gun. Or heck - how about those fancy restaurants with the fancy water that don't even bother to get a liquor license?

Robyn

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I just read an article in Food Arts maybe a month or so ago about Per Se's barman and how there are very few mixed drinks offered there for two reasons. 1. the bar is small and 2. It just doesn't go with what Per Se is trying to accomplish. I don't know that this is quite the norm but it could be a new trend.

Yea the wine lists are jacked up quite a bit from what they would normally cost you, but then again many of the wine lists in really good restaurants are not readily available through normal channels. To get these wines you have to get directly through the vineyards, and have them shipped to you etc, etc. hence the mark up.

As for restaurants without liquor licenses, that just seems to be a death sentence to me.

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I've been to Per Se. And the reason the bar doesn't work is non-celebs like me can only get reservations at 5:30 (when both the bar and the restaurant open) - or at 10 - when most of us who like to have a few drinks before dinner have had them already. I prefer a meal - in terms of timing - which is less trying than making it to the airport for a flight - one where I can make a dinner reservation at 8:00 - and show up at 7 - and have a drink or two at the bar - and perhaps some nice nibbles. During our last trip to NY - I thought David Burke & Donatella did an excellent job of combining a pre-dinner drink experience with a dinner experience.

I do not drink wine - except for champagne and some other sparkling wines - doesn't agree with me. My husband - who does drink wine - usually by the glass to go with his courses - thought that the wine service at Per Se was mediocre (in terms of prices - quality - and suggestions concerning what wines went with which courses). He had the same complaint at Jean Georges. But he thought Alain Ducasse was excellent. I personally am very fond of "champagne trolleys" - but my limited experience in Europe has been better than my limited experience in the US (I especially like the way the servers in the UK balanced the bottles over their arms to pour). Robyn

[maggiethecat]

It should never have hit the Op-Ed page, I agree. It's not Ephron's best writing, I agree.

When I read it I thought: sounds like the rant of a literate eGullet member, a demographic of which I'm very fond. Jeez, folks, we express ourselves here about dining and cooking issues at least as vocally and personally as does Nora. Unfortunately the Times doesn't pay me for my opinion and clamor to put my stuff up on Sunday.

I must strongly disagree with her about dessert spoons: I own eight Georgian-era sterling Big Girls (Thanks, Mummy!) and ice cream has never tasted so good.

[emilyr]

I think what bothers me most is that Ephron has recently been touted as somewhat of a foodie. I believe I saw an ad for a cooking demonstration she was giving as part of the New Yorker festival, and she's put recipes into her new book. I don't know anything about her food history and what her tastes are, nor have I seen the recipes, so I'm not debasing her in this position. I think egullet itself shows how diverse and varied the definitions of "foodie" can be.

I'm just worried people are going to take her as an expert and write off a white tablecloth experience based on an "expert" opinion. Since all of the listed "grievances" are things that are fairly normal occurrences in half-way decent restaurants, I'm afraid that people with less experience will be intimidated by the piece and not want to try those restaurants. Or worse yet, not be intimidate, but think that all of these things HAVE to happen at a nice place and get a kind of reverse-snobbery, all based on the grouchiness of this one piece.