Overreacting @ Restaurant Mistakes?

[Terrasanct]

If you walk into a convenience store, pick out a bottle of soda, open it and take a sip, then find that you don't like it, are you allowed to leave without paying for it?

But if I take a sip of it and it's gone bad, that's a different story. Or if I pour myself a cup of coffee and it's cold, do I have to pay for that?

I'm not disagreeing with your other points, but I think the answer sometimes has to be "it depends."

[Tess]

So all I know is that the food was reasonably good, but the wrong temperature, and he took it back and nothing was apparantly happening to rectify it. And I think that if he couldn't eat the food, he shouldn't have to pay for it, but a manager should be notified before leaving the restaurant. Just talk to the manager, tell him that you can't eat the food, and why, and it will be comped.

I completely agree that that's the way to.

I'm also enough of a freak about being in control of my time that I really don't get lunch at sit-down places if I have something right after; I'm too worried about getting out on time.

[TPO]

I wonder where we draw the line and what we should and shouldn't pay for. If I order a hamburger and I am served a cheeseburger, and I send it back and ask for a hamburger, am I obligated to pay for both items? How about if I send it back but never receive the replacement hamburger?

To me, ordering a hot meal means I can expect a hot meal and I consider it an error if I receive a lukewarm meal -- an error not unlike receiving an incorrect order. I think many of us would be horrified if we were expected to hunt down the manager to ask if the incorrect cheeseburger could be taken off our bill.

If there had been a manager on site in Sam's situation, I would have spoken to him or her. Since there was no manager on site, I probably would have hunted down the waitress one more time looking for my food, but after that I would have felt as though I made a good faith effort to resolve the problem.

Edited August 6, 2005 by TPO (log)

[Busboy]

I think there's way too much micro-calibrating on this thread. Walking on a check is a weasel-ass move, period. Talk to a manager, yell at your waitress, or annouce your anger to the room at large -- hey, we all get pissed off sometimes. But don't jump a check.

[eipi10]

This is actually an interesting legal question--reminds me of stuff I learned in Contracts. (it could be argued either way).

When you order a meal, you effectively form a contract, but implicit in the contract is that the meal is up to a reasonable standard and is served in a reasonably timely fashion. However, upon rightly rejecting a defective meal, the diner has a duty to give the restaurant a chance to correct the meal in a reasonable time.

http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/2-314.html

http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/2-508.html

http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/2-309.html

The law seems pretty fair. It's just a question of what is a reasonable time to reheat your food. I'd say ten minutes is borderline. Obviously thirty minutes would be too long but three minutes would be too short. Ten minutes...hmmm...

Edited August 7, 2005 by eipi10 (log)

[McDuff]

We went to the chain with the big buffalo head and the grinning animated raccoons the other night because my wife wanted red meat and we were in the neighborhood. Ordered the lobster fritter special app, caesar salad and prime rib med. rare with smashed spuds. Salads came first, no silverware, no bread. Then out popped the lobster things, overfried with lots of little frialator crunchies in the basket. They were awful. Right in the middle of that came the dinners and my wife's was clearly not mr. She flagged down the hostess, who got the manager, who made everything right, comping the fritters and a couple of drinks and got her a nice new rib. The waiter was not up to it, but we still left him almost 20%. I'm a pushover. It's not a lot of money, a couple of more dollars than the nominal tip he really deserved, but he's working for a living and it's not easy work. It might be a while before we darken that joint's doors again. Very amateurish work by the waiter, but a nice recovery by the manager.

I did walk out on a check once in a now long-gone deli in Copley Sq in Boston when I found french fries mashed into my reuben. But I was probably being obnoxious. I got into trouble there more than once for tying the lights over the table up on it's cord because it was right in my eyes.

Edited August 7, 2005 by McDuff (log)

[Sam Salmon]

Walking on a check is a weasel-ass move, period.  Talk to a manager, yell at your waitress, or annouce your anger to the room at large -- hey, we all get pissed off sometimes.  But slinking out without paying or talking to anyone, and then posting about it in hopes of having your weasel-ass move condoned by others, is pathetic.

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Strong words!

As I said earlier there was/is no Management presence in the place @ lunch.

The trio of food preparers/servers-all young white females just out of high school-were being slowly submerged under more and more customers and I wasn't capable of communicating that my meal was slowly disintegrating without growling.(I growl quite well too-much too well sometimes )

Since I've been going to the place for years I also know that the check was just torn up and the food tossed.

It's not a high class joint where every penny is watched and garbage cans are searched for evidence of staff malfeasance.

[TheFoodTutor]

I think there's way too much micro-calibrating on this thread.  Walking on a check is a weasel-ass move, period.  Talk to a manager, yell at your waitress, or annouce your anger to the room at large -- hey, we all get pissed off sometimes.  But slinking out without paying or talking to anyone, and then posting about it in hopes of having your weasel-ass move condoned by others, is pathetic.

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I really like this post, for its forthrightness and devil-may-care attitude.

As far as Sam is concerned, I don't know him, and I'm sure he could be a very nice fellow, and he could know all the specifics of this restaurant, and rightly know that a hand-written check for his food was simply not entered into the financials of this restaurant, and the food that was tossed out was simply figured into the waste for that P&L.

Or the server was possibly written up for a walk-out, and maybe had the total amount of the tab deducted from his or her pay, with a strong warning that letting others walk on their tabs would result in termination. Or maybe the server was charged the tab and also fired. Some of these things are illegal, technically, but since servers are transient, due to the nature of their pay scale, and other aspects of the work they do, laws do not have to be followed to the letter when dealing with $2.13/hour employees. Dat's just da nature of da way tings woyks.

At any rate, I'd have spoken to someone before walking out on my tab. I've never walked on a tab, and I don't think I ever will.

[winegeek]

That is strictly against British Columbia Labour Law and does not happen here.

You're kidding right? It has happened to almost every server I have ever worked with. Do you think the restaurant picks up the tab? They may in some places but never in the previous restaurants I've worked in.

[jhlurie]

Walking on a check is a weasel-ass move, period.  Talk to a manager, yell at your waitress, or annouce your anger to the room at large -- hey, we all get pissed off sometimes.  But slinking out without paying or talking to anyone, and then posting about it in hopes of having your weasel-ass move condoned by others, is pathetic.

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Strong words!

As I said earlier there was/is no Management presence in the place @ lunch.

The trio of food preparers/servers-all young white females just out of high school-were being slowly submerged under more and more customers and I wasn't capable of communicating that my meal was slowly disintegrating without growling.(I growl quite well too-much too well sometimes )

Since I've been going to the place for years I also know that the check was just torn up and the food tossed.

It's not a high class joint where every penny is watched and garbage cans are searched for evidence of staff malfeasance.

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Strong words indeed. And bordering on inappropriate. Let's try to keep this discussion on keel, and civilized, at least among ourselves. It's okay to disagree with each other, but there are better ways to make a criticism.

Personally, while I've never walked on a check, I HAVE been in a situation where I felt I needed to send a deliberate message. I once had a situation where I paid the check, but left a single shiny penny--prominently and obviously displayed--as the tip. I felt it made far more of a statement than no tip at all. I'm sure this qualifies me as a weasel in some eyes, but it felt good at the time, and I felt made clear the fact that while I felt obliged to pay my debt, that they'd also lost a customer (and more actually, since I warned many people away from the place).

[Busboy]

Walking on a check is a weasel-ass move, period.  Talk to a manager, yell at your waitress, or annouce your anger to the room at large -- hey, we all get pissed off sometimes.  But slinking out without paying or talking to anyone, and then posting about it in hopes of having your weasel-ass move condoned by others, is pathetic.

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Strong words!

As I said earlier there was/is no Management presence in the place @ lunch.

The trio of food preparers/servers-all young white females just out of high school-were being slowly submerged under more and more customers and I wasn't capable of communicating that my meal was slowly disintegrating without growling.(I growl quite well too-much too well sometimes )

Since I've been going to the place for years I also know that the check was just torn up and the food tossed.

It's not a high class joint where every penny is watched and garbage cans are searched for evidence of staff malfeasance.

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Strong words indeed. And bordering on inappropriate. Let's try to keep this discussion on keel, and civilized, at least among ourselves. It's okay to disagree with each other, but there are better ways to make a criticism.

Personally, while I've never walked on a check, I HAVE been in a situation where I felt I needed to send a deliberate message. I once had a situation where I paid the check, but left a single shiny penny--prominently and obviously displayed--as the tip. I felt it made far more of a statement than no tip at all. I'm sure this qualifies me as a weasel in some eyes, but it felt good at the time, and I felt made clear the fact that while I felt obliged to pay my debt, that they'd also lost a customer (and more actually, since I warned many people away from the place).

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I will stipulate that Sam is probably a great guy and also has a very cool avatar -- and that I have made some weasel-ass moves in my life, as well.

[TheFoodTutor]

So here's a question: Instead of asking people on the internet what they think of your decision to walk out of this particular restaurant, why don't you just go back and talk to someone there? Personally, I'd have no problem going in when I knew the owner would be there and saying something along these lines, "Excuse me, but I came into the restaurant last week, ordered some lunch and had to return it to the counter because my meal was not hot. I never got my food back, and no one was available to speak with at the time, as all of the servers were very busy. I don't want you to think that I intended to leave without paying, but I really was unable to eat my food, and could not get anyone's attention. I intend to eat here again in the future, so I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't barred from your restaurant permanently."

I'd probably also ask about service issues, and whether it would be a good idea to avoid the place at lunch rush, which is the impression I get from the initial post. Restaurant owners and employees are simply other human beings, after all, and the best way to clear up an issue is to speak to someone about it.

Frankly, since I've seen people complain to management about everything under the sun, it's hard to imagine the other side, where one might see a reason not to speak to someone about things like this. In my experience as a manager and a server, and other positions, I've seen everything from outrageous claims - "I ordered a rack of ribs in here last week and took it to go, brought it home and my order was incomplete, plus after I ate it, I got real sick. . . No, I don't have a receipt or anything, and I don't remember the names of any employees that I dealt with on that day, and I didn't call to report that I got sick. . . But could I get a free rack of ribs today for my trouble?" - to people who are genuinely reporting a problem that could be remedied. Your complaint sounds like the latter, so if I usually like eating there, I'd talk to someone.

Worth a shot, no?

[Sam Salmon]

So here's a question: Instead of asking people on the internet what they think of your decision to walk out of this particular restaurant, why don't you just go back and talk to someone there?

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In any other place I'd probably give it a try-here's why I won't in that particular joint.

The Owner is notorious for shouting at/acting abusively toward staff-this I have seen myself a number of times.Not sure exactly why-maybe she grew up hard in a refugee camp somewhere outside her home 'n native land and feels she has to kick ass to keep 'em in line.

I know she'd be very polite/apologetic and as soon as I left she'd start in on the staff-who don't deserve that kind of BS and who as I mentioned earlier rarely last more than a few months anyway.

[jhlurie]

I think the question is academic, in regards to this specific place, since frankly, it would be hearsay if we named names anyway. At best, all we can do is generalize this question and use the logic that if a place existed exactly like the one being described, what would the best course of action be?

To that end, even assuming that Sam really is looking for affirmation, that doesn't mean we have to give it. It's enough to say that you wouldn't have taken the same course as he did--that you might have bit your tongue and done nothing, or complained to the manager, or left an insulting tip, or no tip, or made a public scene, or none of the above.

I'm prepared to accept your statements about the place at face value, Sam, specifically because no names have been named. So I can accept, at least the premise that you perceive the owner as unapproachable. My big question would be then... why go to this place at ALL? It's cited as "a favorite ethnic place", so I assume that means the food is either good, or cheap, or both. But not paying seems like a pretty definitive statement that you aren't returning, Sam. If you meant to make that statement to them, are you prepared for the logical consequence? That you will probably be even less welcome there in the future?

No condemnation here, and no impugning your motives in asking. You asked, presumably, because you wanted to hear other similar stories, or suggestions, or well... even if it was for affirmation, so what? I'm just curious what you think will happen next time you walk into that restaurant. Or better yet, to flip it around and put a positive spin on it, what do you hope will happen, ideally of course.

[Sam Salmon]

My big question would be then... why go to this place at ALL?  It's cited as "a favorite ethnic place", so I assume that means the food is either good, or cheap, or both.

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Food is good/not cheap as such but reasonable and generally well made.The atmosphere is quite unlike anything else in the 'hood-more like a truck stop on the way up to the Khyber Pass-complete with rug draped walls/excruciatingly low tables/wailing music and fiery Chai.

But not paying seems like a pretty definitive statement that you aren't returning, Sam.  If you meant to make that statement to them, are you prepared for the logical consequence?  That you will probably be even less welcome there in the future?

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Again I repeat-the staff turnover is almost legendary no one will be the wiser in 6-8 weeks.

No condemnation here, and no impugning your motives in asking.  You asked, presumably, because you wanted to hear other similar stories, or suggestions, or well... even if it was for affirmation, so what?  I'm just curious what you think will happen next time you walk into that restaurant.  Or better yet, to flip it around and put a positive spin on it, what do you hope will happen, ideally of course.

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I ask because of two reasons

-as I age I have more desire to examine my behaviour not just react to everything.

-I have developed a great deal of respect for many of the posters here-their unique POV's/humour entertain and at times enthrall me.

Once the fall weather starts to bite I'll stop by the takeout window for a cup of Chai/exchange a few friendly words with the newbies behind the counter/inhale that unique and enticing aroma wafting from the kitchen/take things from there.

[TheFoodTutor]

I think the question is academic, in regards to this specific place, since frankly, it would be hearsay if we named names anyway.  At best, all we can do is generalize this question and use the logic that if a place existed exactly like the one being described, what would the best course of action be?

I like this question, and the rest of the response. My answer, personally, would be that I would stop patronizing the establishment at the first sign of abusive behavior toward employees.

Now, I know that I do have an advantage, of sorts, in that I know how to cook darned near anything, or I can figure it out in less than a week if I need to, but I don't think this is a unique talent. It's very easy, in fact, and the few impediments I've found have been things like not always wanting to have a deep fryer set up in one's home, since they tend to make the whole kitchen greasy.

Beyond that, I can reproduce any restaurant experience, more or less. I could very easily make my own thali, that's for sure, and for very little money. Assuming that a thali would be similarly priced to places where I live, at lunchtime, this meal would have run in the neighborhood of $5-10, right? So assuming a tipping habit of 20%, depriving a server of $1 to $2 by paying the bill, but stiffing the server is pretty much meaningless, right? I'm no longer a server at this point, but I can say that when I was one, the thought of someone caring enough about a buck or two to stiff a working professional without saying a word meant that those 2 bucks must mean a lot more to that person than they'd mean to myself, so I'd be glad to let them keep it, and as a server at this place, I'd probably rather be rid of that customer, because I don't want to continue serving someone who wants to just buy the food, yet be served in a sit-down environment without even paying the nominal service fee that's accorded the person who brings it.

So I ask you, Sam, why would you ever bother going back? Do they get special deliveries of manna from heaven that you cannot buy elsewhere, so you must patronize an establishment where employees are subjected to abusive treatment? Do tell.

[divalasvegas]

I think it's commendable Sam that you've given this some considerable thought and willing to open yourself up to everyone's opinions here. However, I'm definitely with FoodTutor on this one. I simply cannot abide someone who is abusive toward their staff and, as you posted earlier, that she actually does this within earshot of the customers is particularly low class. No food or atmosphere or whatever is worth that, at least to me.

Of course we would all be better off if we could duplicate restaurant dishes like FoodTutor.

Picture me here GREEN with envy.

[Sam Salmon]

So I ask you, Sam, why would you ever bother going back? Do they get special deliveries of manna from heaven that you cannot buy elsewhere, so you must patronize an establishment where employees are subjected to abusive treatment? Do tell.

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Something of a separate question they way you've phrased it.

Why do people visit countries with corrupt/opressive govt's?

Should the customer/consumer laboriously track the path of every dollar spent/make agonising decisions as to who/what is worthy?

One could argue that by not bringing the incident in question to the termagant/owner's attention I sheltered the staff from the worst of her excesses.

edited for clarity

Edited August 9, 2005 by Sam Salmon (log)

[Chris Amirault]

For those interested in discussing the bigger questions raised by these sorts of incidents, please click here for the thread on resolving conflict in restaurants.

[TheFoodTutor]

Why do people visit countries with corrupt/opressive govt's?

Should the customer/consumer laboriously track the path of every dollar spent/make agonising decisions as to who/what is worthy?

This sounds like a "slippery slope" argument to me. Many people make similar arguments on the subject of, say, gay marriage. Those who oppose gay marriage say that it will lead to things like incestuous marriage and marriage to animals. Therefore, if I advocate gay marriage, must I also, logically, advocate incestuous unions and sex with animals? Of course not.

By the same token, if I say that I would simply not want to eat in a place where I'm highly aware of abusive policies toward employees, must I then begin scrutinizing every purchase I make, to ensure that no one was ever hurt in any way producing the goods I buy? I don't think so. Sure, I'd like to get rid of all the cruelty in the world, but in this situation, one of these decisions is triflingly easy, while the other involves a great deal of research and a lot of legwork.

I don't think it's the slightest bit laborious or agonizing to decide to stop going to a restaurant where I've seen evidence of abusive behavior. On the contrary, I'd find myself quite uncomfortable dining there after seeing something like that, and it would ruin the experience that I went to that restaurant to achieve - a relaxing meal out.

I'm very curious as to why you'd use those words in reference to this situation.

[TPO]

While I agree that I would be uncomfortable dining in a place where employees are routinely abused in front of customers, if I wanted to avoid goods and services where I knew employees were abused I'd be naked and shoeless. It's very difficult to find anything made outside of abusive sweatshops; even 60% of goods with a Made in the USA label were made in sweatshops in the continental US.

When I can't avoid such abuse, I do my best to support establishments that treat their employees well. Department stores that are paying the full salary of their employees who are Guard members while they serve in Iraq are likely to get my business, as are stores that provide a good wage and benefits to their employees.

Therefore, I tend to avoid places with ridiculously high turnover rates.

[Sam Salmon]

I'm very curious as to why you'd use those words in reference to this situation.

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I'm reminded of a song by the venerable Allman Bros Band (yes I know I'm dating myself here)-'Not My Cross To Bear'

[TheFoodTutor]

I'm very curious as to why you'd use those words in reference to this situation.

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I'm reminded of a song by the venerable Allman Bros Band (yes I know I'm dating myself here)-'Not My Cross To Bear'

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So, you care enough about the welfare of the staff that you'd withhold comments to management about a complaint that was so significant that you actually walked out of the restaurant without paying your tab, an act which could get you arrested, yet you don't care enough about the welfare of the staff to simply decide to eat elsewhere from now on?

Fascinating.

[TPO]

I'm very curious as to why you'd use those words in reference to this situation.

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I'm reminded of a song by the venerable Allman Bros Band (yes I know I'm dating myself here)-'Not My Cross To Bear'

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So, you care enough about the welfare of the staff that you'd withhold comments to management about a complaint that was so significant that you actually walked out of the restaurant without paying your tab, an act which could get you arrested, yet you don't care enough about the welfare of the staff to simply decide to eat elsewhere from now on?

Fascinating.

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I looked, and I can't find a state that would charge you with theft of services if you sent a meal back to be corrected and then did not receive it again. If the meal actually had been hot and he actually ate it and then refused to pay for it by falsely claiming it was lukewarm, then he would have been guilty.

However, assuming what he did actually is illegal, then why are we not expected to pay for an incorrect meal that arrives at our table and gets sent back? Shouldn't that be on the bill until we ask if it could be removed, and then leave it to the manager's discretion on whether or not to remove it?

[Sam Salmon]

So, you care enough about the welfare of the staff that you'd withhold comments to management about a complaint that was so significant that you actually walked out of the restaurant without paying your tab, an act which could get you arrested, yet you don't care enough about the welfare of the staff to simply decide to eat elsewhere from now on?Fascinating.

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Unfortunately you're unable to view the situation in any terms other than your own.

If you'd ever lived in Canada you'd know that we're an apathetic lot-I might do a bit to save the staff some heat-I might not.

Similarly the yoga mat bearing boneheads that populate the café in question continue to patronise the the place even as bile and vitriol vomit forth from the kitchen at ear splitting levels.They shuffle on nervously on their oh-so-toned buns/flush their sculpted cheeks/choke down their Chai and never say a word.

The idea that someone in Vancouver would be arrested for walking out on a missing meal is laughable-this is the real world-BS scenarios have no place here.