My cake fell!

[techno foodie]

Hello!

Sorry to bother all of you with what I'm guessing is a dumb question, but do you know why a cake would fall/sink signifcantly after it cools? Would it be that I didn't bake it long enough, or would it be the temperature being too cool?

I'm pretty sure my oven temp. is fine (I have a thermometer), but I may have pulled the cake out too soon. I tested it with a toothpick, and it came out clean, but I had a feeling it wasn't actually done.

BTW, the cake was a regular old "from scratch" butter cake, baked in 2 8-inch cake pans. Both cakes were baked at the same time, in the middle of the oven, at 350 and for about 40-45 minutes.

I've never had this problem before, and I want to make sure it doesn't happen again!

Thank you for your help!

[chefpeon]

There are lots of different reasons for a cake falling.

Since you're the only one who knows exactly what you did when you prepared it, you have to be your own "cake detective".

Here's a good place to start.

Look at all the probable causes regarding falls, and you can probably figure out what went wrong by process of elimination.

In the future, if you want any of us to troubleshoot, you need to include the exact recipe, exactly what you did, exactly what substitutions you made (if any), exactly what temp you baked at, and what kind of pans you used. When we know all the pertinent info, only then can we make a fairly educated guess.

[Wendy DeBord]

Sorry to bother all of you with what I'm guessing is a dumb question,

Techno Junkie, we/I seriously believe that there are no dumb questions, so please never hesitate to ask questions (besides we love helping people out). You can't be expected to know everything on every topic..........(for example) I might know some about cakes...........but I don't know much about ice creams..........

I'm running late to work at this moment, but I promise I'll come back and try to assist you. Hopefully in the mean time others will jump in and help you too.

[techno foodie]

chefpeon:

Thanks for responding (you, too, Wendy!). Here is the recipe (from Ina Garten) and original directions. Afterwards I'll include any changes I made:

Cake:

18 tablespoons (2 1/4 sticks) unsalted butter, at room temperature

3 cups sugar

6 extra-large eggs, at room temperature

8 ounces (about 1 cup) sour cream, at room temperature

1 1/2 teaspoons pure vanilla extract

1 lemon, zested

3 cups all-purpose flour

1/3 cup cornstarch

1 teaspoon kosher salt

1 teaspoon baking soda

Preheat the oven to 350 degrees F. Butter and flour a 9-inch cake pan, a 6-inch cake pan, and a 3-inch cake pan.

To make the cake, cream the butter and sugar on medium-high speed in the bowl of an electric mixer fitted with a paddle attachment until light and fluffy, about 5 minutes. On medium speed, add the eggs, 2 at a time, then the sour cream, vanilla, and lemon zest, scraping down the bowl as needed. Mix well. Sift together the flour, cornstarch, salt, and baking soda. With the mixer on low speed, slowly add the flour mixture to the butter mixture and stir just until smooth. Finish mixing by hand to be sure the batter is well mixed. Proportionately divide the batter between the 3 cake pans. Smooth the tops with a spatula, and bake as follows: the 9-inch pan for 45 minutes, the 6-inch pan for 35 to 40 minutes and the 3-inch pan for 30 minutes, or until a toothpick comes out clean in each cake. Cool in the pans to room temperature.

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My notes/comments:

1. Now that I think of it, the eggs and sour cream may not have been at room temperature. They definitely had been sitting out a bit, but maybe not long enough. From what I've read, that could affect things, I think.

2. Since I was just making a regular-old 2-layer cake, and not some monstrous 3-tiered cake, I poured batter into two 8-inch cake pans (light, not dark, with straight sides) that had been greased and floured (and had greased and floured parchment on the bottoms, too). Filled a little over half way and then discarded the rest of the batter. Maybe this caused problems, too? For future reference, maybe I should have scaled back the recipe instead?

3. Both pans were in the oven at the same time, on the middle rack. I think I set the timer for 40 minutes, but they weren't done at that point. They were golden, but somewhat "jiggly" in the center. Left in for 5 minutes more, and when I checked them with toothpicks they seemed OK. They felt heavy, though, like they may not have been done. I was worried about overbaking, though, so I took them out.

So, reading over my own comments, it seems any or all of these 3 things may have screwed up the cake.

If any of you can let me know whether these things usually cause such problems, I'd appreciate it!

Bryan (aka techno foodie) :)

[techno foodie]

Crap! Just noticed one more thing: I used large eggs. I never buy extra-large eggs :( So, that could have affected things, too.

Oh, I think I at least partially answered my own questions. That's what I get for not carefully reading through the recipe before I started!

BTW, the cake was wonderful, fallen center and all. Somewhat dense, but very buttery and flavorful.

I sliced off the bad, sunken tops, brushed on a little Chambord and then raspberry preserves, and then frosted with buttercream. It tasted kind of like a frosted jelly doughnut - in a good way :)

Bryan

[chefpeon]

1. Now that I think of it, the eggs and sour cream may not have been at room temperature. They definitely had been sitting out a bit, but maybe not long enough. From what I've read, that could affect things, I think.

Having all your ingredients at room temperature is something that exists in an ideal world. When at home, I take the time to pull all my stuff out about an hour before I mix a cake. Most of the time though, when I'm at work (where I bake most of my cakes), my ingredients are usually cold. I don't really have time to pull stuff in advance; I have limited space; and the health dept. gets kinda upset when they see eggs, milk etc. sitting out in a hot kitchen. My cakes come out fine at work, as they do at home. Although I have my ingredients at room temp at home, I really must honestly say, I don't see much of a difference between the cakes I make at work and the ones I make at home. Actually, I'm not really sure what advantages there really are in having your ingredients at room temp......I just do it 'cause everybody says that's what you should do.

Anyway......one thing for sure......having your eggs and sour cream a little bit cold is not going to be a cause of a fallen cake.

2. Since I was just making a regular-old 2-layer cake, and not some monstrous 3-tiered cake, I poured batter into two 8-inch cake pans (light, not dark, with straight sides) that had been greased and floured (and had greased and floured parchment on the bottoms, too). Filled a little over half way and then discarded the rest of the batter. Maybe this caused problems, too? For future reference, maybe I should have scaled back the recipe instead?

Nah. Actually you should have made cupcakes out of the extra batter! You THREW IT AWAY????

Horrors!!!

Filling your pans a little over halfway is just fine......you didn't do anything wrong there. I don't believe any of that caused your fallen cake either.

3. Both pans were in the oven at the same time, on the middle rack. I think I set the timer for 40 minutes, but they weren't done at that point. They were golden, but somewhat "jiggly" in the center. Left in for 5 minutes more, and when I checked them with toothpicks they seemed OK. They felt heavy, though, like they may not have been done. I was worried about overbaking, though, so I took them out.

This is where I think your answer lies. Toothpick tests are fine, but next time try just lightly touching the center with your fingertip. Look for springback. If your fingertip leaves a small

dent, or it feels kinda "raw" you know it's not done. At this point, depending on the kind of cake

it is, a toothpick can come out clean leading you to believe it's done, when it's actually not.

Remember "springy".....you want "springy". Yeah yeah, I know the "recipe" says use a toothpick, and sure, use that too, but also check for spring. You can't go wrong that way. She may be Ina Garten, but Ima Baker.

Your fallen cake could also have been a result of an accidental mismeasurement (like maybe a little too much baking soda or something like that.) But only you'd know the answer to that question. Maybe.

I also doubt it's the egg size thing. The effect on the final cake with large vs. extra large eggs would be almost unnoticeable, and it wouldn't cause your cake to fall either.

So my official guess:

underbaking.

Yep, that's my final answer.

Do I win the million????

[JeanneCake]

I also share kitchen space and sometimes the chef will pull my butter and eggs for me at 6 am before he leaves (this is usually only when I remember to ask!). But most of the time, they sit in a bowl of warm water while I'm setting up so they aren't ice cold when I'm using them.

Annie's got it right, IMHO; I think you pulled them out before they were really set. Not enough leavening (or too much, or too old to do much good) will also cause a cake's structure to collapse.

The other thing you can do with the extra batter is pour it into a smaller cake pan or muffin tin and refrigerate it while the rest of it is baking. I only have four oven decks to use and when I'm pressed for time, I'm scaling the rest of batter into pans and keep them in the walkin until the ovens are ready. I can honestly say I've never held batter overnight, just for one maybe two hours and it works fine.

[chefpeon]

The other thing you can do with the extra batter is pour it into a smaller cake pan or muffin tin and refrigerate it while the rest of it is baking. I only have four oven decks to use and when I'm pressed for time, I'm scaling the rest of batter into pans and keep them in the walkin until the ovens are ready. I can honestly say I've never held batter overnight, just for one maybe two hours and it works fine.

Ok, I just have one question.....

if one takes care to have all their ingredients at room temperature when mixing a cake batter, then why would one want to put the batter in the refrigerator before it's baked? Doesn't it defeat the purpose of "room temperature"....whatever that purpose is?

Does anyone have a definitive answer to the "room temperature" thing? What's it supposed to do, exactly? I've never been sure about the exact reason..........

[McDuff]

The other thing you can do with the extra batter is pour it into a smaller cake pan or muffin tin and refrigerate it while the rest of it is baking. I only have four oven decks to use and when I'm pressed for time, I'm scaling the rest of batter into pans and keep them in the walkin until the ovens are ready. I can honestly say I've never held batter overnight, just for one maybe two hours and it works fine.

Ok, I just have one question.....

if one takes care to have all their ingredients at room temperature when mixing a cake batter, then why would one want to put the batter in the refrigerator before it's baked? Doesn't it defeat the purpose of "room temperature"....whatever that purpose is?

Does anyone have a definitive answer to the "room temperature" thing? What's it supposed to do, exactly? I've never been sure about the exact reason..........

←

Part of the answer is that butter creams best at about 70 degrees. And just like a bread dough, a cake batter has an optimum temperature. We all know that egg whites separate best when cold, yet beat up better when warmed. Probably you get more elasticity from eggs when they are at room temp when added to a batter.

As far as putting the batter in the reefer, I've never heard that advocated, but double acting baking powder releases 25% of it's leavening power when moistened and the rest when heated. So letting a batter rest in the pans for 20 minutes or so should encourage a lighter more evenly risen cake.

I think the fallen cake may have too much sugar.

[techno foodie]

Ah, yes, I think you did win the million bucks, chefpeon! After hearing your explanations, I'm tending to think that I just took the darn things out too early! I'll definitely check for "springy-ness" in the future, and not just rely on toothpicks.

And I'll definitely use the rest of the batter, too. I just don't always want to deal with the extra stuff sometimes - or eat it!

Thanks for the help!!

Bryan

[JeanneCake]

Ok, I just have one question.....

if one takes care to have all their ingredients at room temperature when mixing a cake batter, then why would one want to put the batter in the refrigerator before it's baked? Doesn't it defeat the purpose of "room temperature"....whatever that purpose is?

←

Sometimes the ovens are full (these ovens are single full sheet size, not like the pizza deck ovens where you can get two full sheets side by side) - I've got two and the caterer is using the other two; or I'm baking 15" tiers and I don't want to crowd a bunch of other pans in. Sometimes I can start making the next batch of cake as soon as the first is in - so the second batch can wait in the walkin for a little while without harm or maybe it is just that there's extra batter that I don't want to waste but it won't fit. I'd never tried it until one day I had an extra 9" pan full of cake batter and no space, so I figured - why not see what happens if it waits? It took a little longer to bake because it was cold but otherwise it was fine.

[chefpeon]

Ok, I get it now Jeanne.....

Thanks for that explanation McDuff!

[BarbaraY]

chefpeon:

3. Both pans were in the oven at the same time, on the middle rack.  I think I set the timer for 40 minutes, but they weren't done at that point.  They were golden, but somewhat "jiggly" in the center.  Left in for 5 minutes more, and when I checked them with toothpicks they seemed OK.  They felt heavy, though, like they may not have been done.  I was worried about overbaking, though, so I took them out.

So, reading over my own comments, it seems any or all of these 3 things may have screwed up the cake. 

If any of you can let me know whether these things usually cause such problems, I'd appreciate it!

Bryan (aka techno foodie) :)

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On reading this my first thought was "jiggly"? Did you move the cake while it was jiggly? Opening the oven or moving a baking cake can make it fall.

I remember my Mom yelling at us for running in the house if she had a cake in the oven.

[Sarah Phillips]

Does anyone have a definitive answer to the "room temperature" thing? What's it supposed to do, exactly? I've never been sure about the exact reason..........

←

I've done a lot of research into the room temperature ingredients and baking recipes, especially butter cakes.

I write about it in my Baking 9-1-1 Book, Simon and Schuster (Fireside), 2003....that it isn't necessary to begin with room temperature ingredients. Page 14 from my book: Old-fashioned recipes were hand-mixed, hence the ned for warmer ingredients do they'd mix faster. Today, we use electric mixers most of the time and they warm the ingredients. This may sound blasphemous, but I think the whole room temperature thing os old-fashioned. I usually use ingredients cold from the refrigerator except for temperature-sensitive ingredients such as chocolate. In the case of creaming butter and sugar, cold butter will take longer to get to the right consistency before you add the sugar, but it will get there. (.....about 30 to 60 seconds!).....

I just taped a presentation on making my Ultimate Butter Cake and Ultimate Chocolate Cake Recipe inventions, using ingredients right from the refrigerator versus room temperature, and the effects it had on the cake. This is for the presentations I will give at the King Arthur Flour Company's Education Center, November 4 and 5 and at French Culinary Instute in December 14.

[chefpeon]

I write about it in my Baking 9-1-1 Book, Simon and Schuster (Fireside), 2003....that it isn't necessary to begin with room temperature ingredients. Page 14 from my book: Old-fashioned recipes were hand-mixed, hence the ned for warmer ingredients do they'd mix faster. Today, we use electric mixers most of the time and they warm the ingredients. This may sound blasphemous, but I think the whole room temperature thing os old-fashioned.

Thanks Sarah! You've pretty much confirmed what I suspected all along. I've done so many cakes starting with cold ingredients, and quite a few with room temp. ingredients. If there are any differences between them, I certainly can't tell.

It does make a lot of sense to have your ingredients at room temp (well, mainly the butter) if you lack any type of mixer and have to cream by hand. But now that most people do have mixers and don't have to cream by hand, the room temperature theory has been slow to fade.

Very interesting indeed!

[Wendy DeBord]

With the mixer on low speed, slowly add the flour mixture to the butter mixture and stir just until smooth. Finish mixing by hand to be sure the batter is well mixed.

It's always hard to pin point exactly what went wrong, because there are so many variables in baking. The obvious variables have already been mentioned so I'm just going to convey a little of my experiences.

This might sound a little goofey but I have to admit it's taken me many observations/attempts/sucesses/failures on how I mix my butter cakes to get the texture right. When I read a recipe that tells me to slowly or lightly mix together my flour into my creamed butter............sometimes, I'm too gentle (always fearing building up gluten). What happens is I don't actually build enough gluten in my batter........and that really does effect how my cake bakes and what the final texture is. You can see it in the finished cake, the structure is different and it seems to take forever for the cake to test done.

I actually have to sort of force myself to let the mixer go longer before I naturally want to stop it. Making sure my flour isn't just folded into my batter (looking sort of just a stroke past curdled) but waiting until it's a smooth batter (firmer) batter. I actually get a better butter cake if I just relax and let my flour incorporate in the mixer much like any other baked good.

I love Ina Garten's coconut cupcake recipe. I use it as my default coconut cake recipe. It's the only recipe of hers I'm aware of using. BUT the reason I mention it is because that butter cake recipe gives me results not too far away from what you said happened to you Techno Foodie. Her coconut cake recipe does sink in the center for me. It takes forever in the oven to finish baking. The outter 2" or so sets up well before the center of the cake does (it bakes less evenly them most cakes). I've never really thought too hard about it, but I sort of think it's slightly out of balance. But the fact that it tastes great........I've never bothered with fixing it. (Granted, it's a recipe for a cupcake and I'm baking it as a full sized cake. You usually can change pans with-out adjusting the leaveners...........but in this case I need to or her recipe is a hair off.)

So, I'm wondering if it isn't a combo of two factors. Following her recipe too closely and not getting enough structure in your gluten development..........and her butter cake recipes may be a little "off" or very deliberately wet scarificing some texture for flavor.

I'm curious if anyone else has similar results with butter cake recipes from Ina Garten?

[Sarah Phillips]

With the mixer on low speed, slowly add the flour mixture to the butter mixture and stir just until smooth. Finish mixing by hand to be sure the batter is well mixed.

It's always hard to pin point exactly what went wrong, because there are so many variables in baking. The obvious variables have already been mentioned so I'm just going to convey a little of my experiences.

This might sound a little goofey but I have to admit it's taken me many observations/attempts/sucesses/failures on how I mix my butter cakes to get the texture right. When I read a recipe that tells me to slowly or lightly mix together my flour into my creamed butter............sometimes, I'm too gentle (always fearing building up gluten). What happens is I don't actually build enough gluten in my batter........and that really does effect how my cake bakes and what the final texture is. You can see it in the finished cake, the structure is different and it seems to take forever for the cake to test done.

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Wendy, you bring up some good points about cake making that I have thinking about for a long time....

A cake will usually sink in the middle because it's underbaked, as chefpeon said....Or, sometimes if you open the oven door before it's done baking, let's say in the last 10 minutes of baking, and the oven's temperature drops by as much as 100 degrees F, the cake will dip in the middle and never recover, even if it's fully baked in the end.......

But, as you pointed out Wendy, a cake will also sink in the middle if the recipe is unbalanced.....Case in point --- There's been a lot of questions scattered throughout egullet.org as to why zucchini bread dips in the middle -- the same recipe can be baked and sometimes it will dip!!..... The variable that's throwing the recipe off is that zucchini contains different liquid amounts, making the bread dip in the middle. The author of the recipe has unaccounted for this variable when he or she wrote the recipe. The baker can easily correct the recipe themselves so the bread won't dip....(P.S. There's a trick that author's can follow when writing recipes that call for fresh ingredients so they won't fail for MOST consumers....)

But, with cakes, the recipe is probably unbalanced.....or there can be a mis-measurement with the ingredients, the butter can be too warm when creaming, etc etc! But, with an experienced baker such as yourself, the fault probably lies with the recipe. It's VERY difficult to write a good butter cake recipe -- one that's moist, with good flavor, texture and color, with a fine crumb! (Even in NYC, where I reside, it's hard to find a good, moist piece of butter cake for dessert on a restaurant menu!)

And, yes, Wendy, I agree that it does take practice to get the right mixing times and speeds just right to get the right cake texture. It does make a difference. I hope someday you get a chance to try my Ultimate Butter Cake Recipe! It's in my Baking 9-1-1 Book! I'd love to know what you think!

[Wendy DeBord]

Maybe we should start a "Best Of" search for the perfect butter cake recipe. Anyone up for it?

For those of you that aren't familar with our format for beginning and writing to "best of" threads please read the following:

The concept is for one person to begin the thread offering up their very best tried/researched recipe for all participants to try. Then, if someone has a recipe that they firmly believe is better then the one offered, they should post their recipe. At that time, we'll do our best to test that new competing recipe and all testers will post their results of that recipe..........and so on. We all bake the same recipe, with-out making ANY adjustments to the orginial recipe. We do this until we clearly have an recipe that the majority thinks is "the best".

Please do NOT offer up any butter cake recipes that you have NOT already tried. Only offer up recipes that you think are great, please.

I've started a new thread for the Best Of: Butter Cakes. Please look at this thread. The current thread your reading "Replying to My cake fell!" is ONLY for replys on this topic. Please post new thoughts on butter cakes in the new best of thread.

[Kris]

With the mixer on low speed, slowly add the flour mixture to the butter mixture and stir just until smooth. Finish mixing by hand to be sure the batter is well mixed.

...I love Ina Garten's coconut cupcake recipe. I use it as my default coconut cake recipe. It's the only recipe of hers I'm aware of using. BUT the reason I mention it is because that butter cake recipe gives me results not too far away from what you said happened to you Techno Foodie. Her coconut cake recipe does sink in the center for me. It takes forever in the oven to finish baking. The outter 2" or so sets up well before the center of the cake does (it bakes less evenly them most cakes). I've never really thought too hard about it, but I sort of think it's slightly out of balance. But the fact that it tastes great........I've never bothered with fixing it. (Granted, it's a recipe for a cupcake and I'm baking it as a full sized cake. You usually can change pans with-out adjusting the leaveners...........but in this case I need to or her recipe is a hair off.)

So, I'm wondering if it isn't a combo of two factors. Following her recipe too closely and not getting enough structure in your gluten development..........and her butter cake recipes may be a little "off" or very deliberately wet scarificing some texture for flavor.

I'm curious if anyone else has similar results with butter cake recipes from Ina Garten?

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I haven't tried any of Ina Garten's cakes but I do have two tips for you to try and help that problem of the cake baking unevenly:

1. Lower the temp of your oven. I bake all of my butter cakes at 300 degrees Farenheit. I know it sounds very low and the cakes do take a few minutes longer to bake. But they rise much more evenly and without humps or domes (or dips) in the middle.

2. Use Bake Even strips. They're aluminum coated fabric strips about 1 1/2" wide. You dip them in cold water until they're fully soaked. Then you wrap them around the edges of your cake pan and pin them in place. This helps slow down the baking of the outer edge of the cake and gives the middle a chance to catch up. I use them faithfully when I bake cakes 10" or larger. But if you're having this problem with an 8" size cake, it will work well too.