North African food in America

[marlena spieler]

Marlena, I apologize. It is a sore subject for me. Not the politics so much as the sentimentalization of food. Professional habit, though I'm guilty of it myself enough times. If a kind moderator would remove offending post I would be most appreciative.

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apology accepted, Behemoth!

i try to avoid sentimentalizing anything, let alone food but the other thing is: the foods of the middle east DO speak to me gastronomically, deeply......and i think they do to many, even those with no roots in the region.

........the chickpeas, the cumin and olive oil and garlic, the rice, the yogurt.....some places the food of poverty, yet some places very expensive.

[chromedome]

i try to avoid sentimentalizing anything, let alone food but the other thing is: the foods of the middle east DO speak to me gastronomically, deeply......and i think they do to many, even those with no roots in the region.

I can certainly attest to that. I grew up in Nova Scotia during the days when there were only five vegetables (the 1960's and 1970's), and before the newly-arrived Lebanese began their transformation of the local palate. The closest I came to anything exotic was the newly-introduced "donair" (a local adaptation of shawarma/doner kebab with a sweet-sour milk-based sauce).

And then, at the beginning of my twenties (ie, the early 80's) I moved to Vancouver, and the world changed. I lived in the Commercial Drive area, still known as "Little Italy" although its ethnic mix had broadened dramatically. The strip included a variety of Italian restaurants and coffee bars, certainly, but also Salvadorean, Portugese, Mexican, Jamaican, Thai, Chinese, Indian, and many other cuisines. The produce stores carried things I'd never dreamed of.

And then, there was Patel's.

I don't know if they're still there, at Commercial and, um...6th? 7th? Just before Broadway, anyway. Walking into that place set my blood afire. I never knew it until I set foot in that place, but somehow my mixed-UK ancestry left me genetically susceptible to the smell and flavour of cumin. Cumin toasting on the stovetop (a technique I would not acquire for several more years) is a smell that transports me in a visceral way few other things - fresh-baked bread, maybe - do. I spent endless hours in that store, smelling spices I knew nothing of: cumin, coriander, fenugreek seeds, ajwain, nigella, panch phoron, cardamom (three kinds!), turmeric...it was purely hypnotic. And I never knew there were so many legumes in the world!

That was when my interest in food really began to soar: between the availability of so many new things at Patels and the great Commercial Drive greengrocers; and all the exposure to new flavours and smells. For the newly-hatched foodie, there are far worse places than Commercial Drive.

Sorry, I'm rambling. My point was that the foods of the Indian subcontinent, the Middle East, and the Maghreb (however you wish to distinguish and differentiate them) are able to exert a powerful influence on outsiders, even outsiders who lack an emotional attachment to the respective regions.

[Maria]

I've enjoyed reading this thread.

The hummous "debate" was entertaining.

As for the question of why North African food doesn't seem to have taken off, well, for people to try a new food it does have to be available. I've actually actively sought out North African restaurants without success - I live in a metro Detroit suburb and I've done a decent amount of travelling.

[Daniel Rogov]

Two terms that have been used that might do well with a bit of clarification.

"The frission with poverty"........might this not be more of a frission with what we perceive as simplicity, of what many of us at least occasionally like to think of as a return to the soil, to simpler times. It is true of course that by necessity simplicity and poverty walk hand in hand, but then again so do many other negative traits and I do not think it those with which we associate. Rather a desire to associate with or, perhaps, a romanticism associated with that simplicity.

As to "sentimentalization", I too am opposed to that in the culinary realm but I am not opposed to romanticism and here again I wonder if it is not an almost natural function in these too hectic days to think of simplicity (see my above comments) as something to be longed for, perhaps as an escape from our too-too modern, too-too frenetic world.

[Behemoth]

Two terms that have been used that might do well with a bit of clarification.

"The frission with poverty"........might this not be more of a frission with what we perceive as simplicity, of what many of us at least occasionally like to think of as a return to the soil, to simpler times.  It is true of course that by necessity simplicity and poverty walk hand in hand, but then again so do many other negative traits and I do not think it those with which we associate.  Rather a desire to associate with or, perhaps, a romanticism associated with that simplicity. 

I think that is exactly the problem I have with such statements. What most people think of as simple times are in fact usually not so simple at all. I myself have written lovingly about walking through the souks with my grandmother and the amount of time she spent making eveything from scratch and all that...but the fact of the matter is, she was pulled out of school at a young age for financial reasons, married off to a guy who was much older than her, had ten kids over the years and basically channeled all her restless energy and sharp wit into a few odd hobbies and (as Almass can surely attest) culinary experiments that took her far afield from the local cuisine, just to escape the drudgery of it all. I would hate to give up the time I spent with her growing up, but I often wonder what choices she would have made, in a different time and place.

Anyway, Farid is right about the olive oil. We grind our own, on a stone mill. It is a thick and opaque green and no matter how much money I have been willing to spend in gourmet stores, I have never found anything that comes close. Probably easier to find in California than on the East Coast though...

[chefzadi]

Two terms that have been used that might do well with a bit of clarification.

"The frission with poverty"........might this not be more of a frission with what we perceive as simplicity, of what many of us at least occasionally like to think of as a return to the soil, to simpler times.  It is true of course that by necessity simplicity and poverty walk hand in hand, but then again so do many other negative traits and I do not think it those with which we associate.  Rather a desire to associate with or, perhaps, a romanticism associated with that simplicity. 

I think that is exactly the problem I have with such statements. What most people think of as simple times are in fact usually not so simple at all. I myself have written lovingly about walking through the souks with my grandmother and the amount of time she spent making eveything from scratch and all that...but the fact of the matter is, she was pulled out of school at a young age for financial reasons, married off to a guy who was much older than her, had ten kids over the years and basically channeled all her restless energy and sharp wit into a few odd hobbies and (as Almass can surely attest) culinary experiments that took her far afield from the local cuisine, just to escape the drudgery of it all. I would hate to give up the time I spent with her growing up, but I often wonder what choices she would have made, in a different time and place.

Anyway, Farid is right about the olive oil. We grind our own, on a stone mill. It is a thick and opaque green and no matter how much money I have been willing to spend in gourmet stores, I have never found anything that comes close. Probably easier to find in California than on the East Coast though...

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I wonder how many people who romanticize this have actually lived it?

I'm going write about village/rural life in France in Ya Rayi and about Algeria in my other blog which be ready for public viewing in about 2 weeks.

I will simply describe it and leave it to the reader to decide if it's so simple afterall, especially for the women.

[Adam Balic]

Two terms that have been used that might do well with a bit of clarification.

"The frission with poverty"........might this not be more of a frission with what we perceive as simplicity, of what many of us at least occasionally like to think of as a return to the soil, to simpler times.  It is true of course that by necessity simplicity and poverty walk hand in hand, but then again so do many other negative traits and I do not think it those with which we associate.  Rather a desire to associate with or, perhaps, a romanticism associated with that simplicity. 

As to "sentimentalization", I too am opposed to that in the culinary realm but I am not opposed to romanticism and here again I wonder if it is not an almost natural function in these too hectic days to think of simplicity (see my above comments) as something to be longed for, perhaps as an escape from our too-too modern, too-too frenetic world.

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I think this phenomena has been occuring for a long time. Even before Marie Antoinette had milking sheds built in the gardens of Versailles. And et in Arcadia ego still sells a lot of 'rustic' themed cookbooks I guess.

Not a bad thing in moderation. It tend to be where I go on holidays anyway..

Edited August 1, 2005 by Adam Balic (log)

[chefzadi]

Two terms that have been used that might do well with a bit of clarification.

"The frission with poverty"........might this not be more of a frission with what we perceive as simplicity, of what many of us at least occasionally like to think of as a return to the soil, to simpler times.  It is true of course that by necessity simplicity and poverty walk hand in hand, but then again so do many other negative traits and I do not think it those with which we associate.  Rather a desire to associate with or, perhaps, a romanticism associated with that simplicity. 

As to "sentimentalization", I too am opposed to that in the culinary realm but I am not opposed to romanticism and here again I wonder if it is not an almost natural function in these too hectic days to think of simplicity (see my above comments) as something to be longed for, perhaps as an escape from our too-too modern, too-too frenetic world.

←

I think this phenomena has been occuring for a long time. Even before Marie Antoinette had milking sheds built in the gardens of Versailles. And et in Arcadia ego still sells a lot of 'rustic' themed cookbooks I guess.

Not a bad thing in moderation. It tend to be where I go on holidays anyway..

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Is it really that hard to figure out that Behemoth and I are talking colonialism and war in different areas?

And the hardships of working land that is in danger of being taken away (again the context of many different coutnries) and looking at our mothers, aunts or grandmothers work and work untill they have thick calloused hands and aching backs all the while having baby after baby after baby with little or no modern health care? Epidurals back then? Nope. Back to working in the fields and kitchen with a babe in arms and toddlers in tow...

[Daniel Rogov]

I did make (and write) associations with even the worst kinds of paternalism, chauvinism, poverty and deprivation but truth is did not associate this thread with colonialism and/or war. I must admit that I also have a problem in understanding how those factors impact on how a style of cookery is accepted in other lands, especially in what we usually think of as the "restaurant scene"

[chefzadi]

I did make (and write) associations with even the worst kinds of paternalism, chauvinism, poverty and deprivation but truth is did not associate this thread with colonialism and/or war. I must admit that I also have a problem in understanding how those factors impact on how a style of cookery is accepted in other lands, especially in what we usually think of as the "restaurant scene"

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You are correct.

We started going off topic into other threads and other issues.

I trust your associations were mulit-cultural.

Edited August 2, 2005 by chefzadi (log)

[Adam Balic]

Two terms that have been used that might do well with a bit of clarification.

"The frission with poverty"........might this not be more of a frission with what we perceive as simplicity, of what many of us at least occasionally like to think of as a return to the soil, to simpler times.  It is true of course that by necessity simplicity and poverty walk hand in hand, but then again so do many other negative traits and I do not think it those with which we associate.  Rather a desire to associate with or, perhaps, a romanticism associated with that simplicity. 

As to "sentimentalization", I too am opposed to that in the culinary realm but I am not opposed to romanticism and here again I wonder if it is not an almost natural function in these too hectic days to think of simplicity (see my above comments) as something to be longed for, perhaps as an escape from our too-too modern, too-too frenetic world.

←

I think this phenomena has been occuring for a long time. Even before Marie Antoinette had milking sheds built in the gardens of Versailles. And et in Arcadia ego still sells a lot of 'rustic' themed cookbooks I guess.

Not a bad thing in moderation. It tend to be where I go on holidays anyway..

←

Is it really that hard to figure out that Behemoth and I are talking colonialism and war in different areas?

And the hardships of working land that is in danger of being taken away (again the context of many different coutnries) and looking at our mothers, aunts or grandmothers work and work untill they have thick calloused hands and aching backs all the while having baby after baby after baby with little or no modern health care? Epidurals back then? Nope. Back to working in the fields and kitchen with a babe in arms and toddlers in tow...

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Absolutely I agree. But what attracted Morocco to me was the idea of the medina in Fez, not a modern hotel and pool in Marrakesh. This is not to belittle the lives mothers, aunts and grandmothers, but for outsiders like me sentimentalisation is part of what attacts me to the food.

Damn, I will have to reconsider all of this. You know with all my interest in food, travel, markets etc, I hadn't really considered the falseness of the experience.

[Milagai]

Two terms that have been used that might do well with a bit of clarification.

"The frission with poverty"........might this not be more of a frission with what we perceive as simplicity, of what many of us at least occasionally like to think of as a return to the soil, to simpler times.  It is true of course that by necessity simplicity and poverty walk hand in hand, but then again so do many other negative traits and I do not think it those with which we associate.  Rather a desire to associate with or, perhaps, a romanticism associated with that simplicity. 

I think that is exactly the problem I have with such statements. What most people think of as simple times are in fact usually not so simple at all. I myself have written lovingly about walking through the souks with my grandmother and the amount of time she spent making eveything from scratch and all that...but the fact of the matter is, she was pulled out of school at a young age for financial reasons, married off to a guy who was much older than her, had ten kids over the years and basically channeled all her restless energy and sharp wit into a few odd hobbies and (as Almass can surely attest) culinary experiments that took her far afield from the local cuisine, just to escape the drudgery of it all. I would hate to give up the time I spent with her growing up, but I often wonder what choices she would have made, in a different time and place.

Anyway, Farid is right about the olive oil. We grind our own, on a stone mill. It is a thick and opaque green and no matter how much money I have been willing to spend in gourmet stores, I have never found anything that comes close. Probably easier to find in California than on the East Coast though...

←

I wonder how many people who romanticize this have actually lived it?

I'm going write about village/rural life in France in Ya Rayi and about Algeria in my other blog which be ready for public viewing in about 2 weeks.

I will simply describe it and leave it to the reader to decide if it's so simple afterall, especially for the women.

←

Y'awl are SO right.

I got into a ferocious argument once with a dinner guest,

long ago when I was in graduate school and my Sudanese

room mate and myself invited some people to dinner,

and this rude *** (he was from Italy, which is not relevant to anything at all)

asked how we made such a quantity of rice, and I innocently

replied that it was a breeze in the pressure cooker.

He launched into a tirade about "all you microwave people..."

etc etc.

I snarled back exactly what you said, that people who

sentimentalize slow food (this was way before fast food was

seen as a problem) have never HAD to make things from scratch,

including walking for hours to gather fuel (firewood sticks or

dried animal dung) and to get water from a far away river or well.

It is well within my memory how my grandmother used to:

draw water from a well (i've done this myself, for fun)

grind idli batter etc in a huge granite grinding stone

make laborious things in painfully slow steps from scratch etc.

HAD to do it, day in and day out, no time off for good behavior

or poor health.

I have heard the story of how my grandfather refused to

buy my grandmother a refrigerator because he said:

"you will not cook fresh food every day but serve me

leftovers from the previous day" (a HUGE food sin in

Indian terms - baasi khaana is an insult). etc.

And I know with what gladness my mother's generation

received electric grinders, fridges, pressure cooker, etc.

And I LOVE my electric Ultra dosai grinder, my microwave,

and frozen veggies like unripe jackfruit that are a ROYAL PIA

to process "au naturel".

Sure, the glorious fragrances of my grandmother's kitchen

are the strongest memories I have and any whiff I get

of that kind of thing plays havpc with my nerves even today.

But now I know what awful drudgery it is.

Similar when people bemoan that Indian women are abandoning

their incredibly rich heritage of handloom natural fibre textiles

and turning en masse to nylon saris.

But you try washing, starching, and ironing cottons with

no running water, no dryer even in rainy weather, and

no reliable electric supply

and even the traditional dhobis (washermen) are abandoning

their professions in droves.

Modern washing machines ruin cottons.

So we're all wearing nylon saris with a sigh of relief,

saving the gossamery muslins for rare occasions.

People who enjoy laborious hand processing and do

it as a hobby or fun or fulfilment, that's different.

It's a whole 'nother beast when you HAVE to do it.

It's like HAVING to walk everywhere or horse carriage

everywhere when all around you are zooming in cars.

Hmmm. Wonder what Amish families feel about this topic....

milagai

[Behemoth]

Damn, I will have to reconsider all of this. You know with all my interest in food, travel, markets etc, I hadn't really considered the falseness of the experience.

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Adam, all will be forgiven if you do this while wearing a milkmaid outfit.

I personally wasn't talking about colonialism, although I suppose that feeds into it in some ways. I was taking issue with nostalgia. I get all bitchy about it here in the US as well -- you should hear my neighbors talk about the good old days of the 1950s. Maybe times were simpler, but I have a hard time thinking of pre-civil rights/pre women's lib as "the good old days". I realize this is not exactly an original point of view or anything...

That said, I can definitely see the appeal. I succumb to it myself often enough. I guess I just want people to see the complexity of it all. (I find the complexity also beautiful, in a weird way...)

[Adam Balic]

Be careful what you wish for.......

I think that this was touched upon in the 'Artisan cheese' thread in the French board. Farming is hard work, many of great products/food preparations involve a hugh amount of hard graft.

I think that female emancipation is a good thing, but surely it is possible to recognise this and feel some nostalgia for some of the postive aspects that come with the bad old days?

[Behemoth]

I think that female emancipation is a good thing, but surely it is possible to recognise this and feel some nostalgia for some of the postive aspects that come with the bad old days?

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Of course. That's exactly the point.

The other side of the coin is that I would also pick a fight with someone who says modern life is all better. Basically I just like to pick fights. As my husband put it: "My wife the athiest, unless she's trying to piss someone off."

[Adam Balic]

Oh good, I was starting to feel guilty about remembering my Baka's cooking with pleasure.

Most of us are very lucky to be alive right now. Especially if you are a women.

Damn, we seem to agree. Thankfully I will be cooking a Lebanese meal on Friday, so we can fight about that.

[chefzadi]

Absolutely I agree. But what attracted Morocco to me was the idea of the medina in Fez, not a modern hotel and pool in Marrakesh. This is not to belittle the lives mothers, aunts and grandmothers, but for outsiders like me sentimentalisation is part of what attacts me to the food.

Damn, I will have to reconsider all of this. You know with all my interest in food, travel, markets etc, I hadn't really considered the falseness of the experience.

No one here is saying that your experience is false or not legitimate or whatever. I've always enjoyed reading your posts about traveling.

Milagai and Nadia made some excellent points about women who had no choice but to work and live in such ways. And these women do not post on food forums about their experiences, they are not heard. And some of us just want to bring that up. It's not an attempt to make anyone feel guilty or bad. We just love our grandmothers, aunts and mothers and want to share their experiences.

I think that female emancipation is a good thing, but surely it is possible to recognise this and feel some nostalgia for some of the postive aspects that come with the bad old days?

Of course I do it too. The old days weren't all bad, it's not either or.

[Adam Balic]

Dude it was dry self-depreciating humour, sorry.

[chefzadi]

Dude it was dry self-depreciating humour, sorry.

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I was thinking that. Really I was.

But I was concerned that people might take things too personally.

[Adam Balic]

Nah, that would never happen .

[chefzadi]

Maghribi cuisine

It's turning into THE source in English for ACCURATE information on North African cuisine. There is a Tunisian chef, a Moroccan woman, myself, as well as well known writers, Paula wolfert posted an excellent article on how to "rolll your own...couscous", Clifford Wright and Anissa Helou have promised to start posting very soon. Many more writers to follow.

In answer to the question, "What is North African cuisine or Magrhebi cuisine?" I'll say that one person cannot answer that question IF you want relevant cutural details.

[chefzadi]

I already announce in the Middle East/Afric forum but I will do so again here.

I've started my Algerian cuisine blog.

I will give descriptions for traditional cooking methods and ingredients. As well tips for home cooks and professionals who are interested in using North African ingredients or recontextualizing traditional dishes.

I was watching the local news and there is a restaurant that is doing alot of dishes with "North African flavors" I see this trend elsewhere as well. If you have a restaurant and are interested in North African dishes read my blog.

[Mottmott]

edited to delete

Edited September 19, 2005 by Mottmott (log)

[Ptipois]

North Africa includes Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia, sometimes Libya.  Libya is also considered a Middle Eastern country even though geographically it is in Northern Africa.

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Are you referring to the Maghreb/Machreq distinction?

I may be wrong but I do not think these words should be translated as North Africa/Middle East. Lybia and Egypt, geographically, belong to North Africa, while they are considered part of Machreq. Why not use "Maghreb" and "Machreq" which correspond closely to the distinction you're mentioning?

The concept of "Middle East" is also elusive, and at proofreaders' school we were taught to watch these words closely whenever they were used, for Middle East did not start right East of Maghreb. There is the "Near East" inbetween: Egypt, Palestine, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Turkey. Middle East was supposed to begin East of these and end at the Pakistani border. Needless to say, this traditional distinction between "Proche-Orient" and "Moyen-Orient" is no more respected by journalists in France than the distinction between Near East and Middle East seems to be remembered in the English language.

(edit: sorry, I see the subject was brought up above, but I hadn't read the whole ten miles of thread yet!)

Edited September 20, 2005 by Ptipois (log)

[chefzadi]

I prefer Maghreb and Mashriq.

There is North Africa which is often understood as Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia, These three countries have a historical, cultural, linguistic and culinary continuity.

Then there is Northern Africa which geographically the Northern Part of the African continent.

Sometimes it's a matter of how people from the source countries refer to themselves. I doubt that Egyptians in France consider themselves a part of Africains du Nord. They are more than welcome to use the term.

Sometimes dominant usage defines the term. And in America and France my experience as been that North African usually refers to a Maghrebi.