NYT Articles on Food, Drink, Cooking, and Culinary Culture (2002–2005)

[Bux]

Slate has an interesting recent article as well.

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Quite interesting and a different perspective to add. I enjoyed her take on the reasons why sous vide cooking by professional chefs prospered in Europe before it did here. I'm happy to see her offer some support for the new with the understanding that what's old and good will still be here in time to come even if it becomes unfashionable for a while. That's an interesting group of people with whom she consulted on the article. All of them have contributed to our forums and a couple of them have been major contributors to the sous vide discussions on this site.

[John Talbott]

We were dining with a very bio, health-conscious individual last night and she asked if toxic ingredients in the plastic bags leached into the food. I could not answer. Googling the subject today I'm aware that there's much concern, eg in iv bags. Anybody worried about this?

[ronnie_suburban]

We were dining with a very bio, health-conscious individual last night and she asked if toxic ingredients in the plastic bags leached into the food.  I could not answer.  Googling the subject today I'm aware that there's much concern, eg in iv bags.  Anybody worried about this?

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I'm glad you raised the point because I've been curious about this myself. I too have a very bio, health conscious friend who expressed to me her concerns about this issue. And, like you, I couldn't really answer her questions.

=R=

[McAuliflower]

We were dining with a very bio, health-conscious individual last night and she asked if toxic ingredients in the plastic bags leached into the food.  I could not answer.  Googling the subject today I'm aware that there's much concern, eg in iv bags.  Anybody worried about this?

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Umm, add me to the list of those concerned.

Of particular concern is use of the type of plastics that are flexible and pliable. Exposure to heat and water are two components that set up your typical bendy plastic to start leaching its plasticizers.

a real world aside note: My day job is work as a research tech. We raise small fish to study early developmental genetic issues. Been doing this for 13 years. We have begun to amass direct evidence of our fish being adversely affected by the flexible plastic components in their tanks. Our recent studies show that baby fish are harmed (dealth, and tail malformations) by contact with new flexible plastic after only 24hrs of exposure. Older supplies of flexible plastics don't harm our fish in this testing context.

Advice to help you feel like you have some control: boil your plastics that are thermal resistant to help facilitate the plasticizer release in a known manner.

Does this include fear of leaching from zip lock type brands? Don't know. Do they offer a MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) for their products?

- yuck.

Edited August 27, 2005 by McAuliflower (log)

[John Talbott]

Today's New York Times Magazine had two letters to the Editor on Amanda Hesser's article; the latter noting that "since the 1960's" it's been known that containers made of plastic can "leach chemicals into food" and advocating for less harmful plastics.

[Gabrielle Claudine]

I hope that someone will be able to answer the question about the safety of plastic sacks used in sous vide "cooking". I continue to be concerned about this matter and will not feel comfortable using this techinique until some "expert" addresses this topic.

[John Whiting]

Today's New York Times Magazine had two letters to the Editor on Amanda Hesser's article; the latter noting that "since the 1960's" it's been known that  containers made of plastic can "leach chemicals into food" and advocating for less harmful plastics.

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It's much easier to finance research that supports a profitable industry than "negative" research that no one makes any money from. It's called Market Forces Science.

[Todd36]

In Wednesday's NYT food section, Robert Stehling of Hominy Grill notes that he doesn't own a food processor. He comments that some rather famous people have survived without one. I've eaten at Hominy Grill, and liked it a great deal, more than Per Se in fact, the price difference is about 6:1 BTW. Boiling in a plastic bag is nothing new. I bet Stehling doesn''t do it. I remember 20 years when an upscale restaurant in Hartford made a big thud with the concept, technique imported from France. I think the currently popularity has more to do with portion control and ability to hold at temp than the end product. Not to mention that I don't like boiled plastic in my food. Heck, it's the 37th year of pouched food, at least according to this

http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/entertainmen...0et005000c.html

Japanese curry....

Again, if this is the technique Per Se uses to make those lobster bits (the ones I couldn't chew), they should hike over to Pearl Oyster bar and try a lobster roll. I don't think they boil in a bag.....

[Mark Sommelier]

In Wednesday's NYT food section, Robert Stehling of Hominy Grill notes that he doesn't own a food processor.  He comments that some rather famous people have survived without one.  I've eaten at Hominy Grill, and liked it a great deal, more than Per Se in fact, the price difference is about 6:1 BTW.  Boiling in a plastic bag is nothing new.  I bet Stehling doesn''t do it.  I remember 20 years when an upscale restaurant in Hartford made a big thud with the concept, technique imported from France.  I think the currently popularity has more to do with portion control and ability to hold at temp than the end product.  Not to mention that I don't like boiled plastic in my food.  Heck, it's the 37th year of pouched food, at least according to this

http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/entertainmen...0et005000c.html

Japanese curry....

Again, if this is the technique Per Se uses to make those lobster bits (the ones I couldn't chew), they should hike over to Pearl Oyster bar and try a lobster roll.  I don't think they boil in a bag.....

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I feel the need to comment on this and the other recent comments about sous vide cooking. As someone who works in a restaurant that Monsieur Goussault has consulted in, I must re-iterate what Ms. Hesser's article itself stated: there is no boiling going on. This is very low temp cooking. It is much more complicated than just sealing food in a bag and heating it. There are many steps involved in the preparation of the foods involved, including searing in a pan at the start and before the food is served, cooling and heating in steps to achieve different effects. This insures the right texture and color. The temperatures involved are between 130 and 155 degrees Fahrenheit. I can personally attest that the results can be amazing and delicious if they are done correctly.

Edited August 31, 2005 by Mark Sommelier (log)

[slkinsey]

Today's New York Times Magazine had two letters to the Editor on Amanda Hesser's article; the latter noting that "since the 1960's" it's been known that  containers made of plastic can "leach chemicals into food" and advocating for less harmful plastics.

This is probably a concern of some merit, although I am quite sure it is highly dependent on the plastic involved as well as various environmental factors -- which is to say that, simply because molecules from some plastics are liberated into water under certain conditions does not mean that it happens with all plastics under all conditions. "Leaching," I should point out, is entirely inappropriate in this context, as it means "to dissolve out by the action of a percolating liquid" (as in, "water passing through stony ground leaches out many minerals").

As someone who works in a restaurant that Monsieur Goussault has consulted in, I must re-iterate what Ms. Hesser's article itself stated: there is no boiling going on. This is very low temp cooking. It is much more complicated than just sealing food in a bag and heating it.

Yea. This is something that some people still don't seem to get. It seems a fact to me that there are certain effects that can be achieved with sous vide cooking that are simply not possible using any other cooking technique. In terms of LTLT, cooking pork belly or beef short ribs for 36 hours at 135F is one of those things that really isn't possible without sous vide. Similarly, the ability to cook certain vegetables (e.g., carrots) without loosing their vibrant colors to oxidation is another feat that seems largely dependent on sous vide cooking.

I thought it was interesting that the other letter complained that "while the quality and flavor [of sous vide dishes] are remarkable, poaching food in a sealed plastic bag creates none of the delicious smells that announce a meal." That is, of course, part of the point: all those molecules remain in the food to increase flavor while you are actually eating. Reheating a meal you buy in a store, whether prepared/packaged sous vide or not, will anyway never replace the rewards of actually cooking at home.

[Corinna Dunne]

I thought it was interesting that the other letter complained that "while the quality and flavor [of sous vide dishes] are remarkable, poaching food in a sealed plastic bag creates none of the delicious smells that announce a meal."  That is, of course, part of the point:  all those molecules remain in the food to increase flavor while you are actually eating.  Reheating a meal you buy in a store, whether prepared/packaged sous vide or not, will anyway never replace the rewards of actually cooking at home.

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This thread is fascinating (as is the sous vide thread). I have one question: Is there any way of quantifying the molecules that are released in the "smell" of conventional cooking and therefore retained in sous vide?

[Bux]

Teflon's clean bill of health is no longer taken for granted and I have to wonder about leaching from plastic materials used in all forms of cooking and food preparation. The material most common to baby bottles a generation or so ago has been shown to be questionable. For all the protections we assume from science, industry and the governmental agencies involved, health and safety information often comes late in the day. The material in some cling wrap, especially that used in professional kitchens has been shown to be questionable in terms of leaching and relationship to causing cancer. Whether you choose not to worry because it's a drop in the bucket amongst all the contaminants in our food, water and air, or whether you do worry about what you can control that may prove to be the camel-back breaking straw, ignoring the question is not the solution. We need to approach this aspect with an open mind.

In terms of flavor released in cooking, no one who has ever enjoyed a dish en papillote should support the idea that the cook needs to smell the goodness of the dish before it's served to the diner.

[McAuliflower]

I have one question: Is there any way of quantifying the molecules that are released in the "smell" of conventional cooking and therefore retained in sous vide?

Smell molecules released during cooking can be quantified- this procedure is a fairly commonplace technique of organic chemistry (heck, and non-organic chemistry too, excuse my bias please).

Food could be heated in a semi-closed environment, steam and condensation is collected and cooled down to bring it back into liquid form which is collected and analyzed using mass spec, to identify the chemical bonds of the various chemical components in the collected off-product. sorry if this is a bit vague, I'm tired, but excited about this thread really digging into the preseumptions of cooking techniques... maybe we should ring up McGee?

Hmmm almost have the desire to bring out old chemistry texts... almost...

reminds me of a great story involving making banana smell in chem lab, but that should be another thread!

[Corinna Dunne]

Please, please bring out the old chemistry texts and sets. I think a thread about the chemistry of smells, the "chemical bonds of the various chemical components in the collected off-product" etc would be intriguing!

I just got a present of Mr. McGee's book, so need to get my teeth into that.

[McAuliflower]

Please, please bring out the old chemistry texts and sets.  I think a thread about the chemistry of smells, the "chemical bonds of the various chemical components in the collected off-product" etc would be intriguing!

I just got a present of Mr. McGee's book, so need to get my teeth into that.

Regarding smells... the Emperor of Scent is a wonderful read. It conveys the amazement of what the human can process as far as recognizing smells, and smell memories. Makes science seems like magic.

[cdh]

NYT Article on bitter orange

It looks like the media has found a new whipping boy to frighten the public with, and this time it is bitter orange peel.

All of us beer afficionados know well that bitter orange peel is an essential ingredient in many belgian beers. If the public health crusaders get bitter orange banned (like ephedra before it) what beers will be pulled from the shelves or radically changed?

Is protecting people from weight loss pills worth sacrificing a number of distinctive beer styles?

[slkinsey]

I'm not convinced that this will be a problem that affects the brewing or liqueur industries. There are plenty of things used in herbal infusions and brewed into beer that are dangerous when consumed in the massive megadoses used in diet pills. I think regulation is moving more in the direction of allowing small amounts of these suposedly "dangerous" substances to be used in traditional beverages. For example, real absinthe is becoming legal all over Europe and I think it's only a matter of time before it's legal here. And yet, thujone is a dangerous poison. For that matter, it's quite easy to kill yourself in short order with another common poison: nicotine. No way is whatever there is in bitter orange peel as dangerous as thujone or nicotine. If anything comes of this (which I think is doubtful) it will hopefully be the banning of megadose bitter orange peel diet pills.

Is there anything taken as a diet pill that isn't bad for you?

[cdh]

From a homebrewer's point of view, I still need access to bitter orange peel in ounce sized doses to toss into my brew kettle. Even if liquers and pre-made beers are exempt, those of us who make our own are still potentially affected by this.

And what about access to bitter oranges like Sevilles? They're tough enough to get ahold of as it is. Finding a black market for them would be close on to impossible.

And orange bitters? The stuff is almost a pure tincture of bitter orange peel, no? At least according the the Baker formulation.

[slkinsey]

From a homebrewer's point of view, I still need access to bitter orange peel in ounce sized doses to toss into my brew kettle.  Even if liquers and pre-made beers are exempt, those of us who make our own are still potentially affected by this.

I see what you're saying, I just don't agree that it's something to be concerned about. You can still get wormwood, can't you? I don't think we're in any danger of seeing the government ban the sale of all bitter orange peel. The only potential issue would be if the FDA were to ban dietary supplements containing bitter orange peel. One could still buy ephedra herb legally in the US even while the FDA ban on ephedra supplements was in effect, because the FDA ban only applied to dietary supplements containing ephedra. Regardless, in April of 2005 a judge in Utah overturned the FDA ban on ephedra supplements and told the FDA they would have to do more testing to determine safe levels if they wanted to continue the ban. Very few companies are coming to market with ephedra supplements after the lift, most likely because of liability issues and concerns that the public won't buy it after the negative publicity.

So, again, I have very little fear that we will see a ban of any kind on bitter orange peel in the forseeable furure.

And what about access to bitter oranges like Sevilles?  They're tough enough to get ahold of as it is.  Finding a black market for them would be close on to impossible.

Look on the bright side: if they ban bitter orange peel dietary supplements, that means that there will be even more available for brewing and other culinary applications.

And orange bitters?  The stuff is almost a pure tincture of bitter orange peel, no?  At least according the the Baker formulation.

There is plenty of other stuff in the two orange bitters with which I am familiar (Fee's and Regan's). Plus, I have to believe that you'd have to drink an awful lot of orange bitters to get a dose equivalent to one of those diet pills.

[cdh]

Sam-

You're so skilled at speaking with the voice of reason. My concerns may be premature, but I just don't want to see more stuff banned because a few folks misuse it.

And where is the line between "dietary supplement" and food ingredient anyway?

[slkinsey]

And where is the line between "dietary supplement" and food ingredient anyway?

That's an interesting question. It definitely seems to be the case that some things are allowed to be sold unregulated in certain forms, regulated in other forms and not at all in other forms.

[slkinsey]

According to the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act of 1994. . .

§3. Definitions.<p></p>

<li><b>( a ) Definition of Certain Foods as Dietary Supplements.</b> Section 201 ( 21 U.S.C. 321 ) is amended by adding at the end the following:</li>

  <p></p>

  "( ff ) The term "dietary supplement" -

  <ul>

    <li>"( 1 ) means a product ( other than tobacco ) intended to supplement the

      diet that bears or contains one or more of the following dietary ingredients:</li>

    <ul>

      <li>"( A ) a vitamin;</li>

      <li>"( B ) a mineral;</li>

      <li>"( C ) an herb or other botanical;</li>

      <li>"( D ) an amino acid;</li>

      <li>"( E ) a dietary substance for use by man to supplement the diet by increasing the total dietary intake; or</li>

      <li>"( F ) a concentrate, metabolite, constituent, extract, or combination of any ingredient described in clause ( A ), ( B ), ( C ), ( D ), or ( E );</li>

    </ul>

    <li>"( 2 ) means a product that -</li>

    <ul>

      <li>"( A )( i ) is intended for ingestion in a form described in section 411( c )( 1 )( B )( i ); or</li>

      <li>"( ii ) complies with section 411( c )( 1 )( B )( ii );</li>

      <li>"( B ) is not represented for use as a conventional food or as a sole item of a meal or the diet; and</li>

      <li>"( C ) is labeled as a dietary supplement; and</li>

    </ul>

    <li>"( 3 ) does -</li>

    <ul>

      <li>"( A ) include an article that is approved as a new drug under section 505, certified as an antibiotic under section 507, or licensed as a biologic under section 351 of the Public Health Service Act ( 42 U.S.C. 262 ) and was, prior to such approval, certification, or license, marketed as a dietary supplement or as a food unless the Secretary has issued a regulation, after notice and comment, finding that the article, when used as or in a dietary supplement under the conditions of use and dosages set forth in the labeling for such dietary supplement, is unlawful under section 402( f ); and</li>

      <li>"( B ) not include -</li>

      <ul>

        <li>"( i ) an article that is approved as a new drug under section 505, certified as an antibiotic under section 507, or licensed as a biologic under section 351 of the Public Health Service Act ( 42 U.S.C. 262 ), or</li>

        <li>"( ii ) an article authorized for investigation as a new drug, antibiotic, or biological for which substantial clinical investigations have been instituted and for which the existence of such investigations has been made public,</li>

      </ul>

    </ul>

  </ul>

which was not before such approval, certification, licensing, or authorization marketed as a dietary supplement or as a food unless the Secretary, in the Secretary's discretion, has issued a regulation, after notice and comment, finding that the article would be lawful under this Act.<br />

</ul>

Except for purposes of section 201( g ), a dietary supplement shall be deemed

  to  be a food within the meaning of this Act.

<br />

(Note: this material not subject to copyright protection)

[jayrayner]

Ahead of next weeks' Michelin launch, I'm trying to track down a list of the current NYT three stars (have already got the fours.) Anybody seen such a thig on line anywhere..?

[Andy Lynes]

I'll take a wild stab and say The New York Times searchable restaurant database? There's 44 of them. You'll need to be registered and logged in to the Times site for that link to work by the way.

[raxelita]

yep, all you do is search for ratings three stars and above.

Edited October 25, 2005 by raxelita (log)